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AS 1701 - this may have me beaten ! What can I do next?


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I may have finally met my match - everything looks good on this AS 1701 (auto+manual wind, centre seconds) but every time I rebuilt it the amplitude gets worse.

Anyone familiar with AS1700/1701 movement?

I'm at a loss as to what I can do next, except admit defeat and bin it !

1. I cleaned, examined and rebuilt the movement. I work under a zoom stereo microscope, so look out for defects dirt etc. All jewels pegged.
Balance, gear train, barrel spin freely, all pivots/jewels look good, hairspring flat and true, mainspring Ok - Can't get amplitude above 230°
(all testing without auto and calendar mechanisms fitted)

2. Re-strip and re-examine. More checking - check for looseness in hairspring collet, roller table/jewel etc. Fit new mainspring.  Amplitude 210° !!

3. Another re-strip, but with high mag on microscope (40x) Closer look at all jewels, pivots etc. Balance passes my usual test of still moving well after 30s with blast from puffer.
I'm very happy with the gear train (all parts tested individually and together), and barrel. Can't see anything touching, or screws in the wrong place. Pallet looks OK, lock looks OK, fork not rubbing on roller. 
Amplitude now - 180° !!!

I had to close the hole in the barrel top itself, and barrel bridge, but the arbor moves freely in both with little play. The barrel can be moved with a blast from a puffer.

The odd thing is, if I put a screw driver on the ratchet wheel screw and apply pressure, the amplitude should go up - but it hardly makes any difference. 

It all looks in good condition and should be running strongly. I'm missing something obvious - but unfortunately not obvious to me at the moment. 

I've never been this stuck !

 

 

 

AS 1700, 1701.pdf

Edited by mikepilk
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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Can't get amplitude above 230°
(all testing without auto and calendar mechanisms fitted)

What are you using to get this number and can we have a picture

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

high mag on microscope (40x)

You need more magnification electron microscope would be good. Or my objection to people with microscopes are looking at the pine needles of the forest you miss the forest fire.

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 Hi Mike,

 A test to release possible pretension in a bridge,  loosen each screw one at a time to see  if it makes a difference , next do the same with two screws at a time.

Do you usually check if the crown wheel turns freely after assembly& lube  or any part for that matter. 

A hole jewel which looks oky may be seated unlevel in its relevent hole. 

Are you sure barrel lid isn't rubbing on mainspring? 

Rgds

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Or my objection to people with microscopes are looking at the pine needles of the forest you miss the forest fire.

I think you're right there !

It's Weishi 1000. By looking at the balance, I can see it's low amplitude.

20221117_185328.thumb.jpg.cb30aa598b69ca7ae5434ed13d443bc9.jpg

This is an odd movement, as they added an auto mechanism to a manual wind. The barrel sits on a ratchet wheel. I tried it without this wheel and it didn't make any difference. 

image.png.ba54e378a942b8555dcb915d56b5e8ef.pngimage.png.ba54e378a942b8555dcb915d56b5e8ef.png

 

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2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I may have finally met my match - everything looks good on this AS 1701 (auto+manual wind, centre seconds) but every time I rebuilt it the amplitude gets worse.

Anyone familiar with AS1700/1701 movement?

I'm at a loss as to what I can do next, except admit defeat and bin it !

1. I cleaned, examined and rebuilt the movement. I work under a zoom stereo microscope, so look out for defects dirt etc. All jewels pegged.
Balance, gear train, barrel spin freely, all pivots/jewels look good, hairspring flat and true, mainspring Ok - Can't get amplitude above 230°
(all testing without auto and calendar mechanisms fitted)

2. Re-strip and re-examine. More checking - check for looseness in hairspring collet, roller table/jewel etc. Fit new mainspring.  Amplitude 210° !!

3. Another re-strip, but with high mag on microscope (40x) Closer look at all jewels, pivots etc. Balance passes my usual test of still moving well after 30s with blast from puffer.
I'm very happy with the gear train (all parts tested individually and together), and barrel. Can't see anything touching, or screws in the wrong place. Pallet looks OK, lock looks OK, fork not rubbing on roller. 
Amplitude now - 180° !!!

I had to close the hole in the barrel top itself, and barrel bridge, but the arbor moves freely in both with little play. The barrel can be moved with a blast from a puffer.

The odd thing is, if I put a screw driver on the ratchet wheel screw and apply pressure, the amplitude should go up - but it hardly makes any difference. 

It all looks in good condition and should be running strongly. I'm missing something obvious - but unfortunately not obvious to me at the moment. 

I've never been this stuck !

 

 

 

AS 1700, 1701.pdf 1.11 MB · 3 downloads

What is the height fit of the mainspring in the barrel like ?

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10 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Hi Mike,

 A test to release possible pretension in a bridge,  loosen each screw one at a time to see  if it makes a difference , next do the same with two screws at a time.

Do you usually check if the crown wheel turns freely after assembly& lube  or any part for that matter. 

A hole jewel which looks oky may be seated unlevel in its relevent hole. 

Are you sure barrel lid isn't rubbing on mainspring? 

Rgds

Hi @Nucejoe - yep, tried loosening the bridges (barrel and gear) and gently lifting each corner. I tried mounting each wheel in the gear train, and giving a blast with the puffer. All spin freely with good end shake. The centre seconds wheel spins freely in the centre wheel. 

Good point about the barrel lid. The barrel arbor was loose in the barrel lid, so I closed the hole with a punch. It now fits nicely, but I wonder if I've bent the barrel lid inwards and it's trapping the mainspring. I'll feel stupid if that's it !

BTW the ratchet in the wheel the barrel sits on is spring loaded, so the barrel is being pushed against the bridge.

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49 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

looking at the pine needles of the forest you miss the forest fire.

Lol great anology John 👍. We look to deep sometimes when the obvious is waving at us 👋

15 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

BTW the ratchet in the wheel the barrel sits on is spring loaded, so the barrel is being pushed against the bridge

I have something similar that i put to one side a while back . Is it a flat tapered spring with 2 wings raising up with a hole in the center to fit over the barrel arbor.  I had it upside down at one point. Even the correct way up it can slip round and one side of it miss the barrel bridge. 

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1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

You might have fitted  the wrong screw for screw No 51482.

This is not an easy movement to work on.   

Rgds 

That's likely, as I noticed the wheel felt quite loose with the screw in place. Some of the screws are incorrect on this movement. I tried it with this wheel removed and it didn't make a difference.

Just taken the lid off the barrel, it looks quite flat, but there's evidence of the spring rubbing. Definitely around the outside, and possible near the centre, but that may be where I had a punch. It's odd it should rub on the outside as it's the correct height spring (1.20mm). 

I'll have a closer look at the barrel tomorrow, it's evening here and time for a large glass of red wine to sooth my nerves !

exam-0001(3).thumb.jpg.d0e1d6bbd0b278c2476e2d574e45900f.jpg

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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Good point about the barrel lid. The barrel arbor was loose in the barrel lid, so I closed the hole with a punch. It now fits nicely, but I wonder if I've bent the barrel lid inwards and it's trapping the mainspring. I'll feel stupid if that's it !

It's amazing the problems that can occur if the barrel Lindt isn't down nice and tight. Then barrel it also has to allow enough play of the barrel arbor of course. Did you replace the mainspring? You should build a grab the arbor and move it up and down and see if there is end shake their.

What did you lubricate the escapement with?

Then it's good the timing machine you have I was worried it was a phone app or something. What happens you to turn it to crown down and give us an image of that. In addition to dial up. Dial-up and dial down should be identical is why asked about it.

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I work under a zoom stereo microscope,

 

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I think you're right there !

One of the objections I have with people with microscopes are it's hard to see the entire watch. I know everyone gets obsessed with high power looking at everything in detail but you can't see the entire watch necessarily under the microscope unless you Have a really nice microscope with a nice field of view And a nice working distance and you're looking at a heck of a lot of money to typically.

Okay if you take the balance wheel out take the pallet fork out and gently start to rotate the crown is the gear train just take off or does it seem to have a hesitation until he gets enough pressure and starts to turn. While the problems with this watch is all the parts stacked on top of each other. Or basically any time you have a watch with a sweep second that tends to be an issue just because.

Is looking at the lubrication guide to the gives us an idea of how the wheels are laid out I assume you're looking at end shake with a microscope? The reason I ask is somebody sent me a video of checking the mainspring barrel with a microscope and it looked really bad the problem was was a brand-new mainspring out of the package it's because the microscope made it look bad it's possible on a watch like this if maybe the upper bridge has been bent down a little bit because of the automatic mechanism. Loosening the screws to be good only if the bridge actually comes up a little bit but not too much.

Probably not an issue but what  are you using to lubricate the entire watch.

Oh I don't suppose you can take pictures with your microscope? Then what was the condition of the watch like before you service did did you do a pre-timing before you service to? I was like before and after it on the timing machine just because I like to see if it's an improvement which it should be but not always.

Oh if you get microscope pictures or something close up how does the depth of the pallet stones looked with the escape wheel?

Then I'm just thinking by the way of random thoughts which is why this isn't in any particular order. As you're losing amplitude or any of the bridges really tight when you go to put them on? As a possible your bending the bridge down each time you putting it together. Looking at the end shake with a microscope where it looks outstanding but maybe it isn't?

 

 

 

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The barrel seems such a simple thing, it's easy assume it's OK and overlook faults. I've been guilty of that 🙄
The lid wasn't quite flat, so I've corrected that.

The new spring was slipping much too early - after only 3 turns. I lightly sanded the barrel wall, and used the old spring. Holding the barrel in one hand, and turning the arbor with a long screw fitted in a pin vice, I can feel the spring turns freely and takes about 6 turns before it slips - which is what the spec suggests.
(using 8213 on the barrel wall)

I re-cleaned the balance jewels (lubed with 9010) and the pallet jewels (9415). I use 9010 on the balance, escape+fourth wheel, 9104 (HP1300) on centre+third wheel, barrel etc.

All end shakes seem OK, I've tried loosening screws and lifting bridges slightly. All wheels are flat.

Amplitude is up a bit, but still disappointing. I'll see if it improves over night.

It seems odd that the sprung bit in the lower ratchet wheel (1416) is pushing the arbor against the bridge. Do you know if this is correct, or should there be some end-shake @Nucejoe? The bridge is not very robust and may have been bent.

 

20221118_160114.thumb.jpg.8f31cb80c44e1194513f3e826b77aef2.jpg

Edited by mikepilk
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No improvement. The barrel and mainspring feel to be working OK. You can see from the first video the gears move as soon as I turn the crown. The second video shows the balance freely moving, and when I blow it with a puffer, the gear train easily moves. 

Apart from finding a donor movement and start swapping parts, I can't think of anything else I can do. It's a pretty steady trace at 235-240°, so I guess that's it.

 

Hate to be beaten ! 🥴

Seems we can't post videos. D'Oh

 

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23 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Seems we can't post videos. D'Oh

If you look at the file types it's not an acceptable file type. Then even if it was an acceptable file type one of the things I really should do with this message board is a limit file sizes because some of the PDFs get really really big and big files on the message board isn't really what a message board likes to have an of video would be very big usually

okay looking at the timing machine if everything seems to be perfect the waveform is kind of moving around a little bit don't you find that strange for everything being perfect? If you stare at the timing machine when it's running does the amplitude seems to go up and down or does it really stay close to what it is.

28 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I can't think of anything else I can do. It's a pretty steady trace at 235-240°, so I guess that's it.

I know it's a sin for me to say this but did you know if you service this watch for customer they wouldn't care about the amplitude they would only care about timekeeping. 24 hours from now what is the timekeeping is that keeping time? I know it's a silly concept worrying about time versus the most important thing in the universe is amplitude but we don't have an amplitude meter on the dial we just have a hand to tell time does the watch keep time for 24 hours? Because that's all they cared about in the old days before these newfangled timing machines came out.

 

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It's not uncommon at all for it to be necessary to adjust the escapement a bit on a watch this age to get the amplitude up to 270+. There's not always room for adjustment, but usually. A very small movement of the entry stone (in) of say 0.005mm can give 10-20 degrees easy, close the bankings a tiny bit, another 10-20, etc. Of course you can't just start moving stones and bankings willy-nilly, and I haven't been able to track down a good concise write-up out there that explains the procedure.

 

How much does the amplitude drop in vertical positions?

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2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

It's not uncommon at all for it to be necessary to adjust the escapement a bit on a watch this age to get the amplitude up to 270+. There's not always room for adjustment, but usually. A very small movement of the entry stone (in) of say 0.005mm can give 10-20 degrees easy, close the bankings a tiny bit, another 10-20, etc. Of course you can't just start moving stones and bankings willy-nilly, and I haven't been able to track down a good concise write-up out there that explains the procedure.

 

How much does the amplitude drop in vertical positions?

The first pic is DD DD.thumb.jpg.6cbcc97e126c4937a68dd198e6a2c28a.jpg

 

This is Crown Down

CD.thumb.jpg.bbd1778a2f2cf0c47e78c2b1693ac4ba.jpg

And Crown Up

CU.thumb.jpg.85d7edcb9c7ed960eac6a19f2a1c33a8.jpg

Interesting. Looks like something wrong with the entry pallet, but why would that only occur CU ?

The entry stone is right under the centre seconds wheel, so hard to take a pic.

exam-0001(4).thumb.jpg.b6adac17bdae49f10415fc0722374903.jpg

It's very hard to see, but I noticed that the the roller jewel looked very close to the bottom of the pallet fork (bottom of the cut out, not the guard pin). I wonder if it's hitting? Could that explain the CU plot? - in this position the pallet fork is hanging vertically down, so any play in the pivots would move it closer to the roller jewel.

I wish there was a (cheapish) microphone I could buy to plug in to my PC to allow me to run timegrapher analysis software.

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27 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

wish there was a (cheapish) microphone I could buy to plug in to my PC to allow me to run timegrapher analysis software.

There is a huge thread on WRT discussing diy time Grapher stuff. I recall somebody posting a piezo plus a single transistor solution. I designed a 3tran circuit that works well.

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That's a ton of lock on the entry pallet. Like more than double necessary; that alone will eat 30+ degrees of amplitude.

 

I did write a condensed but pretty thorough explanation of escapement checking here:

 

 

If I ever get my hands on a demonstration escapement I'll try to redo it with photos.

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4 hours ago, clockboy said:

Looking at the readout the problem IMO it is loss of power.. Without going through all of the above replies checking for worn barrel bushes could be a start. 

The barrel cap and barrel bridge were worn, I had to close both holes. They both run smoothly now. There is no real end shake to the barrel as the  spring on the lower ratchet wheel pushes it against the bridge.

Holding the barrel, I wound the spring with a pin-vice on a long screw in the arbor. It winds smoothly without any sticking, and the spring starts to slip after about 6 turns.

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

That's a ton of lock on the entry pallet. Like more than double necessary; that alone will eat 30+ degrees of amplitude..

I took a better pic of the entry stone with the seconds wheel removed. The lock is more than half with width of the stone!

The exit stone has similar lock. 

entry.thumb.jpg.15159b6602fa6b923399c5fdca549453.jpg

 

Exit stone :

exam-0002(1).thumb.jpg.4840ea4eb006e7f7f574941169a04738.jpg

I haven't read your explanation yet, but I have a microscope and can measure movements of 0.005mm

There's a similar explanation in Fried's "The Watch Repairer's Manual" pages 207-210

 

5 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

There is a huge thread on WRT discussing diy time Grapher stuff. I recall somebody posting a piezo plus a single transistor solution. I designed a 3tran circuit that works well.

The problem is it's DIY. My wish is to buy and off-the -shelf microphone !

I'll have another look at the thread. Might be an interesting project over xmas.

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9 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Of course you can't just start moving stones and bankings willy-nilly, and I haven't been able to track down a good concise write-up out there that explains the procedure.

The best I've ever seen was on the BHI website. Very nice  drawings nice simple write up and unfortunately it's no longer there. That would present a copyright issue if somebody like that so much they swiped it and made a PDF it probably wouldn't be ethical to distribute it because it would probably violate a copyright perhaps.

Although I did find it already made PDF once on the college website actually the local college. Made up of handouts they've had in the past and they hand out that was given at and AWCI seminar given at Seattle a very long time ago. Then off I just figure out where the heck that went all attached the but is not as nice the BHI was very clear on the exacting procedure adjust this then go the next step next step next step versus just playing with things like people typically do in leaving things a big mess. Very common on anything vintage.

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

nteresting. Looks like something wrong with the entry pallet, but why would that only occur CU ?

This is a perfect example of why when diagnosing problems you should look at more than one position. Dial-up and dial down should be identical it will rule out pivot and jewel issues. Then going to the vertical positions also helpful for diagnostic purposes. I ask you like to do six positions but I get spoiled at work the machine just does that all by itself. But still even at home I used to do all my watches and six positions just because the microphone does rotate makes it easy to do.

Then your interesting waveform is not just the pallet. It's basically one side of your escapement appears to be having a problem. So it can be the pallet stone it could also be the roller jewel a could be also the fork slot even though it seems like it should show up other places. So basically one side of the escapement. When it's doing this interesting waveform what does the amplitude look like? In other words visually does the amplitude look like what you perceive the timing machine says. Often times of the amplitude is way too low you'll start to see all sorts of interesting things which may be an amplitude issue. But I'm still bothered by the waveform kind of well basically is not Street is weaving around a little bit that's an interesting issue caused by what?

8 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I wish there was a (cheapish) microphone I could buy to plug in to my PC to allow me to run timegrapher analysis software.

 

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

The problem is it's DIY. My wish is to buy and off-the -shelf microphone !

Unfortunately DIY is actually the best approach except it's still DIY. While the problems with plugging in the PC in that comes up on the timing machine software is typically you cannot plug a piezo  microphone into the computer because it's the wrong type. It's expecting a capacitive microphone. There is a Chinese one that you can buy out there but

the other approach is you already have a nice microphone. Basically you can just tap into the existing microphone and put in audio.  I'm pretty sure we covered that some more in the discussion group. Because the audio is something that's really nice almost all the witschi machines have it it's basically standard operating procedure when you start getting  anything weird is you listen because it's amazing what you can hear and so much of it that you can hear that doesn't sound good doesn't look good on the timing machine either but it does help to narrow down problems.

 okay did find the handouts that I found online once all sorts of interesting information. It would be really nice though with one of these in the future of somebody would document like this the timing machine shows this this was the cause. Because as I said it's not always just the entry or exit stone I once had a roller jewel that would wobble so in one position it looked or one side looked bad the other side looked fine it was just the roller jewel. Or as you note all sorts of other issues can occur thing is not quite where there supposed to be things that are rubbing in some positions not others.

Oh thinking about positional stuff, little eight reading I have a link to a PDF

Yes a manual for an old obsolete timing machine but written at a time where watchmakers were new to timing Machines. What makes this nice then is it explains how the timing machine works talks about the waveforms for instance page 17 announce PDF page notice it talks about escapement things that can affect the display. An example basically of why you need to look at the watch in more than one position because you're missing out on the beautiful diagnostic effects of a graphical display.

Then in case you think I'm joking about the effect of the graphical display in a variety of positions somebody with the last year or so I was Omega watch is perfect on the machine but it sucked on the wrist because they never time did another position and when they put another position it sucked and I don't remember what the outcome was but unless you hold your watch in one position you really do need to check it in several positions to see what it's doing.

http://www.historictimekeepers.com/documents/Micromat.pdf

 

 

 

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf

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15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

It's not uncommon at all for it to be necessary to adjust the escapement a bit on a watch this age

Is there any reason why this is so? Were such movements in the past just not adjusted out of the factory to have high amplitude, due to the excessive lock on the pallets?

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WOW

@nickelsilver you have opened my eyes. I didn't realise such a small tweak to the pallet stones could make such a difference. And I can't understand why they are wrongly positioned when the pallet looks original.

After reading your explanation, and Fried's, I had a play around under the microscope to get a better understanding.

Then I just pushed both stones in a touch, and gained about 40° : 275° DU/DD. CU/CD are both about 225° and clean plots. 

I need to clean and lube the pallet (looks like something on one of the escape wheel teeth), so it may get better.

I think it would be safe to move them in a tiny bit more, but I'm happy with what it's showing.

20221120_164854.thumb.jpg.c149655e607771448ea6cfd7698cdf30.jpg

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