Jump to content

Renata balance wheel question

fussbudget
 Share

Recommended Posts

fussbudget New Member

fussbudget

Posted
Posted

Hi,

I'm very very new to all this, still in the sooooo many parts stage! Please be gentle 🙂

I bought a couple of watches to take apart, learn and try to fix, one is labelled Josmar:

josmar1.thumb.jpg.42b7e952fb60e9a45ca314cda871316c.jpg

I liked the style of the face and the 'patina' 🙂

It has a Baumgartner BFG 800 pin lever movement.

josmar2.thumb.jpg.279c1a5293e17e6122300bfbc1934565.jpg

josmar3.JPG.ae1842ac244ccdf6a6d0a12a295eeaed.JPG

https://17jewels.info/movements/b/baumgartner/baumgartner-800/

I guess it was dropped, the upper pivot has broken off the balance shaft, I don't think there's any damage to the jewels fortunately. I found somewhere which sells replacement complete Renata balance wheels as I'm a long way off being able to change a balance shaft!

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/8316_Renata Balance Page 11-15.pdf

The catalogue lists two; 62 and 63 for BFG 800, but what does " a dgt. " and " a pl " mean? I assume they're abbreviations for something?

Many thanks for any help, Andy

Link to comment
Share on other sites
watchweasol Distinguished Member

watchweasol

Posted
Posted

Hi Andy   I have the catalogues but it does not explain the abreviations,.     remember these are swiss publications and therefore  are in their language.     But on the tech sheet there are two balances  complete  one is for a balance with a jeweled roller and the other with a brass finger. So before ordering you need to check and see which it is.   I have attached the tech sheet for the BFG 866 to give you some idea.

2529_BFG 866,866.31.7.pdf

Hi Just gone through all my Renata cat's   a dgt    =    avec doigt      (finger)   and      pl  =  plateau   (roller). 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Andy   I have the catalogues but it does not explain the abreviations,.     remember these are swiss publications and therefore  are in their language.     But on the tech sheet there are two balances  complete  one is for a balance with a jeweled roller and the other with a brass finger. So before ordering you need to check and see which it is.   I have attached the tech sheet for the BFG 866 to give you some idea.

2529_BFG 866,866.31.7.pdf 3.21 MB · 1 download

Hi Just gone through all my Renata cat's   a dgt    =    avec doigt      (finger)   and      pl  =  plateau   (roller). 

Pretty sure this is relating to the guard finger on the fork of the lever. The roller has a notch that the finger skims through as it switches from one side of the staff to the other. Its a shock protection feature. The pl - plateau i would suggest means the roller has no notch and the fork has no guard finger. Coincidentally i was polishing the finger sides to contact the roller with less friction, i might add just for fun 😉. 

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
fussbudget New Member

fussbudget

Posted
  • Author
Posted
44 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Andy   I have the catalogues but it does not explain the abreviations,.     remember these are swiss publications and therefore  are in their language.     But on the tech sheet there are two balances  complete  one is for a balance with a jeweled roller and the other with a brass finger. So before ordering you need to check and see which it is.   I have attached the tech sheet for the BFG 866 to give you some idea.

2529_BFG 866,866.31.7.pdf 3.21 MB · 1 download

Hi Just gone through all my Renata cat's   a dgt    =    avec doigt      (finger)   and      pl  =  plateau   (roller). 

Thank you, that's greatl! My school boy French was failing me trying to find anything 🙂

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Pretty sure this is relating to the guard finger on the fork of the lever. The roller has a notch that the finger skims through as it switches from one side of the staff to the other. Its a shock protection feature. The pl - plateau i would suggest means the roller has no notch and the fork has no guard finger. Coincidentally i was polishing the finger sides to contact the roller with less friction, i might add just for fun 😉. 

Thank you! That makes sense, there is a brass finger on the lever, so it looks like 'avec doigt' then 🙂

Andy

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, fussbudget said:

Thank you, that's greatl! My school boy French was failing me trying to find anything 🙂

Thank you! That makes sense, there is a brass finger on the lever, so it looks like 'avec doigt' then 🙂

Andy

Eyup fuss, something got me thinking about the lever. i have an update on this for you. Just been looking though the bestfit catalog.  There are balance staffs that have a finger as opposed to a roller, non relative to a gaurd finger on the lever. Never seen one of these on a movement so you might want to look into that first. A staff with a roller has the guard finger of the lever on the bottom of the fork as in all modern modern and all old movements that I've seen up to now.  A staff with a finger instead of a roller  has the guard finger of the lever facing uppermost with the fork underneath it. Something before impulse jewels. Hope this makes sense

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Added extra info.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
fussbudget New Member

fussbudget

Posted
  • Author
Posted
On 11/16/2022 at 5:43 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup fuss, something got me thinking about the lever. i have an update on this for you. Just been looking though the bestfit catalog.  There are balance staffs that have a finger as opposed to a roller, non relative to a gaurd finger on the lever. Never seen one of these on a movement so you might want to look into that first. A staff with a roller has the guard finger of the lever on the bottom of the fork as in all modern modern and all old movements that I've seen up to now.  A staff with a finger instead of a roller  has the guard finger of the lever facing uppermost with the fork underneath it. Something before impulse jewels. Hope this makes sense

Thank you, for more information! Sorry for the delay, trying to get clear photos of small parts....

The lever does have a finger on the bottom of the fork:

IMG_1887.thumb.JPG.72fb26e566aba2105e1f583fbdf46e28.JPG

and the balance has a roller with notch:

IMG_1892.thumb.JPG.6dd093b93171c87d026fa33f2c16fc0e.JPG

so I think that means the balance I need is 62 'avec doigt'.  I guess I'll order one and see 🙂

Cheers, Andy

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, fussbudget said:

Thank you, for more information! Sorry for the delay, trying to get clear photos of small parts....

The lever does have a finger on the bottom of the fork:

IMG_1887.thumb.JPG.72fb26e566aba2105e1f583fbdf46e28.JPG

and the balance has a roller with notch:

IMG_1892.thumb.JPG.6dd093b93171c87d026fa33f2c16fc0e.JPG

so I think that means the balance I need is 62 'avec doigt'.  I guess I'll order one and see 🙂

Cheers, Andy

Haha. No mate i dont think so. Doigt is finger, finger on the staff . Yours has an impulse jewel. Maybe getting confused here , so lets go through it again. There are 2 fingers, a guard finger on the lever and a staff finger instead of a roller and impulse jewel. You want a roller = plateau.  🙂. This is what avec doigt looks like. 

Screenshot_20221117-185521_eBay.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
fussbudget New Member

fussbudget

Posted
  • Author
Posted
3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha. No mate i dont think so. Doigt is finger, finger on the staff . Yours has an impulse jewel. Maybe getting confused here , so lets go through it again. There are 2 fingers, a guard finger on the lever and a staff finger instead of a roller and impulse jewel. You want a roller = plateau.  🙂

Aaaah so many new terms to learn 😳 This is why I put up photos, thank you. 🙂

Andy

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
Just now, fussbudget said:

Aaaah so many new terms to learn 😳 This is why I put up photos, thank you. 🙂

Andy

 

 

Just now, fussbudget said:

Aaaah so many new terms to learn 😳 This is why I put up photos, thank you. 🙂

Andy

 

To be honest i have not come across a staff with a brass finger as yet. As far as i know the guard finger on the lever is above the fork with this. So a quick recognition as soon as you look at the lever to say " oh no can i get a new staff for this if i need one " 😆

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Hawaiikook808
      Balance spring fell out of regulator pin.

      By Hawaiikook808 · Posted

      Thank you so much, Hector and CJ. I appreciate the tech sheet and the video. Gasp, I think I will make the attempt. What's the worst that can happen? I think there may be a new balance complete in my future, though.  I'll update the post and let you know the result. R, Frank  
    • Waggy
      Movement holder made with 3D printer

      By Waggy · Posted

      So here is the new base (v 2.1), I made it so that the base will fit over and swallow the stump of the hand pusher tool (or at least my clone of the tool), I also reduced the OD of the bottom skirt a little as it looked/felt a little large, here are a few pictures and the fake .pdf file which you need to convert to .zip once downloaded.   The cut-out seen on the below image on the bottom of the base should swallow the OD (40 mm, +0.1 mm tolerance) of the stump and the height of the stump 9.5mm (measured to 9.1mm, but rounded to 9.5mm) - let me know if this works for your tool.   Note, I think you may need to print supports for the new internal shelf created? Here is the fake .pdf for just the FreeCAD base file and 3mf files Modular Movement Holder.pdf Here is the fake pdf for complete set of the new base and ring FreeCAD/3mf files: Modular Movement Holder base and ring v 2.1.pdf However, I'm wondering how often you could use this feature, adding the dial usually increases the OD of the movement, so you would need a new (larger) adapter ring tuned to the OD of the dial and I wouldn't like to grip the dial in any kind of movement holder if It could be avoided for fear of damaging it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
    • HectorLooi
      Balance spring fell out of regulator pin.

      By HectorLooi · Posted

      Hi Frank, you have dived headlong into the deep end. Hairspring work has to be the scariest thing a newbie has to tackle. Your hairspring appears to be bent and just putting it back into the regulator would not allow the balance to work properly. It might start oscillating but the performance would not be good. The proper thing to do is to unstud the hairspring, remove the hairspring from the balance, reinstall the hairspring on the stud carrier, reshape the endcurve and centre the collet to the balance jewel hole. This challenge would either make you or break you. Hope that you will be able to fix your watch. Welcome to the world of watchmaking.  Watch this video. It think it'll give you an idea of the task ahead. From your 1st photo, I think you have a etachron type stud. Let me see if I can find a video on how to remove it from the arm.
    • Curare
      Balance spring fell out of regulator pin.

      By Curare · Posted

      Have read of the Tech Sheet attached on the balance section page 12. It may be bent but until you reposition it back in the regulator pins you'll never know. Cheers CJ 4R35B_4R36A.pdf
    • Hawaiikook808
      Balance spring fell out of regulator pin.

      By Hawaiikook808 · Posted

      Aloha All, My Seiko 4R35B movement stopped working today. Upon closer inspection, it looks like the balance spring came out of the regulator pin. This is my first time working on a balance. Any advice on how to get this spring repositioned (back to normal)? I'm pretty sure that while adjusting the beat error on this movement, I must have turned the stud (I didn't even know they turned), and the spring eventually fell out.  Will the spring go back to even spacing when it's back in the pin, or does it look bent? Thanks, Frank  
×
×
  • Create New...