Esa 9362

[Khan]

Hi 

I have this vintage diver that I serviced because it stopped after some seconds or less than minute and worked again a little when pulling out and in the crown. But then there is a big screw I turned on and the edge cracked (right side on the image 1). But the watch runs the same way as before service. I believe that the big screw was fragile already. What is its function and how can I repair this? 

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

This?  Its a variable capacitor.

[Khan]

5 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This?  Its a variable capacitor.

Yes that's what I'm talking about

[JohnR725]

49 minutes ago, Khan said:

Yes that's what I'm talking about

normally wouldn't touch the trimmer capacitor unless you had a timekeeping issue. But timekeeping issue means you want your watch to keep time within a second per day timekeeping issue is not the watch stopping. So typically you'd never have to adjust this because it just wouldn't make any difference at all unless you are obsessed with time. Then ideally should have a timing machine for quartz watches otherwise it be really hard to adjust it. Then unfortunately it's made out a ceramic mainly and it doesn't like being pushed on when you turn it as you can see it breaks. The easiest repair would be to replace the entire circuit if you can find one I don't know how common the circuit is

7 hours ago, Khan said:

1). But the watch runs the same way as before service.

I'm confused by this sentence are you saying it's still acting up in other words the watch is not running?

7 hours ago, Khan said:

that I serviced because

then out of curiosity what is your definition of servicing mean?

[Khan]

So the watch should principally run even if the capacitor is damaged? I have disassembled, cleaned and oiled the parts except of the electronic parts. But the watch runs in the same way as prior to service. So might be a fault in the circuit somewhere? These seems to be hard to find, unfortunately. I have noticed that the watch runs immediately if I touch the metal "bubble" with a metal tweezer, left from the black "Swiss" writing. Maybe that gives a hint to where the fault is located. 

[watchweasol]

If you are pressing the encapsulation (black lump) fpr want of a better description and it works, looks like a broken track under or on the chip under the (bubble) couple that with the broken trimmer,  and as John remarked the only way forward is either a new cct board or a new module.

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

If you are pressing the encapsulation (black lump) fpr want of a better description and it works, looks like a broken track under or on the chip under the (bubble) couple that with the broken trimmer,  and as John remarked the only way forward is either a new cct board or a new module.

the unfortunate problem of electronics and electrical watches are you cannot look at the circuit and see if it's working. there is a minor exception to that and that is the coil often times people changing batteries will scratch the coil it's very common when it's not running you can look at the coil and see it's damaged. but overall you still need test equipment if you want to know if your circuit board is good or bad.

50 minutes ago, Khan said:

So the watch should principally run even if the capacitor is damaged?

it looks like you might still have it slightly attached in which case it's probably functional. if you were to take it all the way out or seriously damage it so it's no longer functional other than shorting it out that would be very bad but if you were damage it to the point where it didn't work at all well this is where we need a electrical engineer may be somebody with a PhD I wonder where we can find one of those on the discussion group like this? Don't worry that answer will reveal itself as soon as somebody in Texas wakes up and joins the group again.

37 minutes ago, Khan said:

But the watch runs in the same way as prior to service

then if it's doing the exact same thing after servicing you probably didn't damage the electronics if you're lucky. But that doesn't necessarily mean the electronic circuit is still working. It's not like quartz watches have a forever guarantee on their circuitry

37 minutes ago, Khan said:

I have noticed that the watch runs immediately

in addition to the mysterious black box or in this case a black  blob of epoxy it's hiding an integrated circuits. We really need test equipment because it make it a lot easier to figure out what's going on. then it be nice to have the technical specifications although this is a pretty generic watch and they all basically look the same but just in case I'm attaching electrical tests and a parts list in case you didn't have those.

56 minutes ago, Khan said:

I have disassembled, cleaned and oiled the parts except of the electronic parts

the other problem with a quartz watches are there super intolerant to variety of problems. Mechanical watches you that have things not quite right in the watch will still run. Quartz watches have be super free to rotate their intolerant to mechanical defects. For instance what kind of oil did you use on this watch? Did you also check the rotor for mechanical particles it's a really powerful magnets and things like to stick to it.

3382_ETA 9360 9361 9362 .pdf

[LittleWatchShop]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

we need a electrical engineer may be somebody with a PhD I wonder where we can find one of those on the discussion group like this? Don't worry that answer will reveal itself as soon as somebody in Texas wakes up and joins the group again.

LOL,TEXAS is awake...woulda been here earlier, but I had to get through today's WORDLE puzzle.  Now that is behind me (got it in 3)...

Here is a diagram of the structure of the capacitor.  Based on your experiments, I doubt the capacitor is shorting--more likely becoming an open circuit.

The metal "bubbles" are blobs of solder.  Over time, these can crystalize and become inoperative (cold solder joints) but for watches I expect this to be incredibly rare...but who knows.  As @watchweasolsays, it could be a broken trace (the copper tracks).  Sometimes this can be just a micro hairline crack.

So, what do you do?  If it were sitting here in front of me at this red hot minute, I would put the fine top on my soldering iron and re-solder the two connections to the capacitor and see what happens--that is quick and non-destructive.

If the capacitor is all "wobbly" it is probably broken.  I surmised that it is probably open, but I could be wrong...maybe shorting.  Here is a typical circuit of an oscillator.  The variable cap could be C1 or C2.  Modern quartz watches do not use the variable caps, but often time on ebay, you see a pile of old quartz movements that go for nothing.  You could rob a cap from another movement.

If indeed, the cap is shorting out, removing it might be all that is required to get the watch working.  Yeah, the oscillator can work if there is enough parasitic capacitance on the board.  An alternative is to  attach two 30 gauge (or smaller) insulated wires to each terminal and twist them together to get enough capacitance to do the job.  This technique is a hack, but was used often on radios back in the 60's.  It was called a "gimmic" and indeed that is what it was.

But...at the end of the day, if you do not have a soldering iron, nor the skills to use one, you are out of luck.  The only solution is a replacement movement--most likely found on ebay.  I see one for $110.

If you lived down the street from me, you could come over and I would fix it for you.

 

BTW, where are you?  I wish there were a forum rule that required members to at least state which hemisphere they reside. 

This topic sent me to ebay for a search and as a result, I am now $100 closer to being a millionaire.  Maybe I need to just remove the E keycap from this keyboard.

Edited November 7, 2022 by LittleWatchShop
hear here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, Khan said:

Hi 

I have this vintage diver that I serviced because it stopped after some seconds or less than minute and worked again a little when pulling out and in the crown. But then there is a big screw I turned on and the edge cracked (right side on the image 1). But the watch runs the same way as before service. I believe that the big screw was fragile already. What is its function and how can I repair this? 

 

 

Hey Khan that big screw, dont turn it mate it might be fragile. Helpful ? Nah not really sorry.

4 hours ago, Khan said:

So the watch should principally run even if the capacitor is damaged? I have disassembled, cleaned and oiled the parts except of the electronic parts. But the watch runs in the same way as prior to service. So might be a fault in the circuit somewhere? These seems to be hard to find, unfortunately. I have noticed that the watch runs immediately if I touch the metal "bubble" with a metal tweezer, left from the black "Swiss" writing. Maybe that gives a hint to where the fault is located. 

The black bubble thingy is the cmos, thats the brains behind the watch. Even though damaged and not working still has more logic than the brains behind my country's government

4 hours ago, Khan said:

So the watch should principally run even if the capacitor is damaged? I have disassembled, cleaned and oiled the parts except of the electronic parts. But the watch runs in the same way as prior to service. So might be a fault in the circuit somewhere? These seems to be hard to find, unfortunately. I have noticed that the watch runs immediately if I touch the metal "bubble" with a metal tweezer, left from the black "Swiss" writing. Maybe that gives a hint to where the fault is located. 

Sounds like you have a non contact here Khan. You could dig in and maybe fix these if you have some experience with fine electronic soldering. A new old stock circuit board may not be much of an outlay. Have you identified the movement ?

[Khan]

Interesting to understand what is beneath the electric works. Appreciate your effort in explaining and sharing the passion. I'm from Sweden and I agree that a location on members profile gives some sort of a connection while communicating. 

I have a soldering iron but never opened it. Have to dig into the techniques if I ever consider to use it. 

Anyhow, I have tested the watch for the last 24 hours. And it runs and keep time when lying on the table with face up or down. But when I have it on the wrist, it suddenly stops after some minutes and runs again after a minute or two. What could be the reason, you think? 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Khan

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, Khan said:

Interesting to understand what is beneath the electric works. Appreciate your effort in explaining and sharing the passion. I'm from Sweden and I agree that a location on members profile gives some sort of a connection while communicating. 

I have a soldering iron but never opened it. Have to dig into the techniques if I ever consider to use it. 

Anyhow, I have tested the watch for the last 24 hours. And it runs and keep time when lying on the table with face up or down. But when I have it on the wrist, it suddenly stops after some minutes and runs again after a minute or two. What could be the reason, you think? 

Eyup Khan, sorry about the first post lol, i have a tool like behavior sometimes, usually when i wake up, you will get used to it. Have you established if there is in fact a break in the circuit ? Dial up or dial down may not influence the fault, wrist wearing may encourage it. Have we tried a voltmeter on the battery yet ? start simple then work towards tricky bits. Does the battery seat ok and make good contact with bothe terminals? Sounds obvious but if you are not looking for it

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, Khan said:

What could be the reason, you think?

You have an intermittent connection problem.  Based on what you have shared, the capacitor seems to be the culprit. If so, as I stated earlier, the capacitor is either shorting or opening due to mechanical motion (wearing).

The only way to address this is with some soldering work.  If you have never done this, you are likely to just make a mess, frankly.  You can try, knowing that you may pass the point of no return.  Then buy a donor on ebay.

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, Khan said:

But the watch runs in the same way as prior to service.

 

3 hours ago, Khan said:

Anyhow, I have tested the watch for the last 24 hours. And it runs and keep time when lying on the table with face up or down. But when I have it on the wrist, it suddenly stops after some minutes and runs again after a minute or two. What could be the reason, you think?

just to be clear here so previously and currently the watch is doing the exact same thing after it was serviced? In other words if you leave it still sitting on the tabletop it runs but as soon as it's moved or rotated or anything it stops?

[Khan]

Yes correct - the only difference after servicing is that it runs in longer periods when rotating or wearing it. 

6 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

You have an intermittent connection problem.  Based on what you have shared, the capacitor seems to be the culprit. If so, as I stated earlier, the capacitor is either shorting or opening due to mechanical motion (wearing).

The only way to address this is with some soldering work.  If you have never done this, you are likely to just make a mess, frankly.  You can try, knowing that you may pass the point of no return.  Then buy a donor on ebay.

I see that. I think the capacitor was fragile before I turned thar big screw since I had same issue before service. Any educational material you can refer to on the internet regarding soldering similar stuff?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Khan said:

Yes correct - the only difference after servicing is that it runs in longer periods when rotating or wearing it. 

I see that. I think the capacitor was fragile before I turned thar big screw since I had same issue before service. Any educational material you can refer to on the internet regarding soldering similar stuff?

There is loads of good videos on youtube khan. Soldering is something you will want to practice first before trying to solder this. I have a similar issue with a zenith quartz, a nice watch watch, but the quartz crystal has detached. I do a lot of plumbing for a living so used to pipe soldering. But i've been practicing silver soldering for months on and off and I'm still not fully confident to attempt this repair yet. Get some good accurate practise in, a very easy fix for a pro not so for a beginner. When you've set yourself up to have a go, stay calm and focused on that specific area that you are working on. You'll be chuffed to old boots with yourself when you fix it. Good luck matey let us know how you do and a post a picture to show off your first successful soldering project.

[watchweasol]

Hi for joining any metals, welding , silver soldering cleanliness is at the fore front. Sny dirt in the joint will weaken it.  for practise at college many years ago we made a box out of tinned wire 3 dimentionable and each cross joint had to be strong. So to practise your technique make a grid, essentially a square with a cross piece in the square.  wire wool all connections, assemble dry, a bit of flux on each joint as you do them, apply a bit off solder to tin the iron tip and apply to the joint when the joint heats up you will see the bit of solder flow to the joint at that time add a little solder and allow to flow into the joint then remove the heat and allow to cool. Job done. do wait untill its the right temperature and do not apply too long, its just practise, too little heat causes dry joints and too much can cause bubbles in the joint.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi for joining any metals, welding , silver soldering cleanliness is at the fore front. Sny dirt in the joint will weaken it.  for practise at college many years ago we made a box out of tinned wire 3 dimentionable and each cross joint had to be strong. So to practise your technique make a grid, essentially a square with a cross piece in the square.  wire wool all connections, assemble dry, a bit of flux on each joint as you do them, apply a bit off solder to tin the iron tip and apply to the joint when the joint heats up you will see the bit of solder flow to the joint at that time add a little solder and allow to flow into the joint then remove the heat and allow to cool. Job done. do wait untill its the right temperature and do not apply too long, its just practise, too little heat causes dry joints and too much can cause bubbles in the joint.

Morning WW. Hope you're having fair weather up there in Scotty. Its  bright and sunny here in Yorkshire,  chilly though. Hows your brother doing here in Hull btw ?

[watchweasol]

Morning NEW  a bright sunny morning up here not too cold wandering about in a T shirt but that may change.  Brothers ok thanks. still walking the dog, Busy working on a clock,  Broken mainspring and some teeth off the driving wheel, Its the wheel on the barrel fortunatly its detach able from the barrel but needs three teeth making, got the wheel cut out and the repair piece fitted, now got to cut the teeth.  May be post it when I have it done.

[HectorLooi]

The leads of the variable capacitor appears to be broken.

Proper electrical soldering with a soldering iron and wire solder takes a lot of practice. An easier alternative is to use solder paste and a hot air pen.

But first, you'll need to get a replacement variable capacitor. 

Good luck.

[LittleWatchShop]

13 hours ago, Khan said:

I have a soldering iron but never opened it. Have to dig into the techniques if I ever consider to use it. 

Please show us your soldering iron.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Morning NEW  a bright sunny morning up here not too cold wandering about in a T shirt but that may change.  Brothers ok thanks. still walking the dog, Busy working on a clock,  Broken mainspring and some teeth off the driving wheel, Its the wheel on the barrel fortunatly its detach able from the barrel but needs three teeth making, got the wheel cut out and the repair piece fitted, now got to cut the teeth.  May be post it when I have it done.

Sounds like a tricky job. I'm not there with clocks yet, something i will more than likely get into when i fully retire. Pleased that hes ok, if you ever need him checking on I'm only a couple of miles away. I'd love to see a wheel repair when you have it finished.

[Khan]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:50 AM, watchweasol said:

Hi for joining any metals, welding , silver soldering cleanliness is at the fore front. Sny dirt in the joint will weaken it.  for practise at college many years ago we made a box out of tinned wire 3 dimentionable and each cross joint had to be strong. So to practise your technique make a grid, essentially a square with a cross piece in the square.  wire wool all connections, assemble dry, a bit of flux on each joint as you do them, apply a bit off solder to tin the iron tip and apply to the joint when the joint heats up you will see the bit of solder flow to the joint at that time add a little solder and allow to flow into the joint then remove the heat and allow to cool. Job done. do wait untill its the right temperature and do not apply too long, its just practise, too little heat causes dry joints and too much can cause bubbles in the joint.

Thanks alot for your guidance. 

Since the broken area looks to be ceramic, how can the tin make the metallic connection? 

And what diameter tin should I use? 

I will upload an image of the solder iron later. I bet the size of the iron tip must be of a smaller size. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Khan

[watchweasol]

Hi  The picture of the watch looks like the connections of the trimmer are adrift fron the cct board, needs a picture with higher magnification to define if that is so. the ceramic is part of the trimmer which would have had metal tabs to solser it to the board. These may be broken, more inspection needed.  cheers

[Khan]

The soldering iron have is Dremel Versatip. 

[watchweasol]

From looking at the dremel Iron it has several tips being a gas job makes it easy to use. Choose the fine tip should be about 1 1/2 to 2 mm and use that.  looking at pictures of the watch in question it gives the impression that the trimmer is attached at both sides to the cct board.

Have a look at Ranfft ETA/ESA 9363 for a good picture and more information