Seiko 5606 lift angle

[steve1811uk]

Hi, I have been working on a Seiko 5606 which from any info I can find online should have a lift angle of 56 degrees. With that setting on the timegrapher I was getting 275 degrees DU/DD but getting quite large variations in the pendant positions even though I was seeing 235 degrees amplitude. I decided to look into the lift angle myself and from experimentation by getting the balance to rotate 180 degrees and then getting the timegrapher reading to match by adjusting the lift angle setting I determined that the lift angle was approximately only 51.5 degrees. The amplitude readings I was getting with a 56 degree setting were overstated by approx 10%. In reality I was getting approx 250 degrees dial up/down and 210 in pendant positions, and that is really too low. If anyone is working on a 5606 then please have a look at the lift angle as you might think your amplitude is good when it really isn't. Please post what you find. Steve.

[mikepilk]

Are you sure the timegrapher is giving accurate results? The lift angle should be 56° for this movement - I believe the Seiko figure.

You say that "I was getting approx 250 degrees dial up/down and 210 in pendant positions, and that is really too low". Really? 250° on most Seiko movements is very good. I would suggest 210-240 being the norm.

I have just wound my 5606 and put it on the timegrapher set at 56°. I have about 240° DU/DD. It hasn't been run for a while, so may go up a bit, but I'm happy with 240° from a Seiko. 

Just checked a 5606 serviced by "The Watch Guy" - which shows 229° amplitude after service.

[steve1811uk]

Hi Mike, I am pretty sure that there is no issue with the timegrapher (Weishi 1900) that I have been using for over two years. If I set the balance to move 180 degrees and lift angle to 56 degrees then the timegrapher shows 200 degrees amplitude. Note that it is very easy to see the 180 degrees actual amplitude as the balance has 4 spokes that overlap when the amplitude is 90, 180 and 270 degrees.

Fully agree that Seikos have a bad reputation for amplitude but in my experience that is due to wear of the barrel arbor port (solvable with staking set), badly shaped damaged hairsprings, worn balance staff pivots and poor cleaning in service. I have always managed to get over 270 degrees full wind even for 7005, 7006, 7019 and 7625 from 1970s after addressing those issues.

 

 

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, steve1811uk said:

Fully agree that Seikos have a bad reputation for amplitude but in my experience that is due to wear of the barrel arbor port (solvable with staking set), badly shaped damaged hairsprings, worn balance staff pivots and poor cleaning in service. I have always managed to get over 270 degrees full wind even for 7005, 7006, 7019 and 7625 from 1970s after addressing those issues.

 

I have a 7002 which I have stripped and cleaned 3 times (out of frustration, I normally like to see 270° on watches) as I couldn't get the amplitude above about 235° - despite checking everything you list above. I work under a microscope so check everything carefully.

There seems to be a lot of variation in Seiko movements - a few give high amplitude, many don't. I wonder if this ties in with you observation on lift angle? (I was going to visually check on my 5606 - but I'd forgot it's a front-loader)

I need to do some more reading on lift angle, and how it is determined. I understand it's how long the tooth on the escape wheel is in contact with the face of the pallet jewel - hence the "lift".  This should mean that it is determined by the escapement geometry and pallet jewel size. Moving the pallet jewels in/out, changing banking pin positions should have no effect on lift angle ( ???  - can any "pro's" clarify?)).  So I don't understand how you get a different number!

The timegrapher calculates amplitude based on the supplied lift angle - using the noise of impacts with, firstly the pallet fork, thirdly the banking pin.  These depend on pallet jewel, banking pin positions, so will effect amplitude.

I wondered if the ranges seen in amplitude with Seiko's are partly due to variations in pallet fork jewel and banking pin positions?  But it seems unlikely on an automated production line. 

[gbyleveldt]

@mikepilkI've also had a mixed bag of results with 7002's. Considering it's very similar to 7S26 movements (which I get over 260deg all the time) I must think that the variations in 7002 is due to wear and age (and whomever else was in there before me). I've been meaning to chuck some newer barrels into the worst of the 7002's here to check again but haven't gotten around to it.

[steve1811uk]

Thanks for the input guys. I revisited the 5606 with the following results DU/DD. Original Seiko mainspring fitted. This is with the timegrapher set to 51.5 degrees.

Full wind - 275 degrees

After 30 minutes - 265 degrees

After 9 hours - 250 degrees

After 24 hours - 220 degrees

I am pretty pleased with the results as the positional variation is well controlled due to the good amplitude. Also the movement is cold and I expect about 5% amplitude increase when it's warm on the wrist.

[JohnR725]

56 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

Full wind - 275 degrees

After 30 minutes - 265 degrees

just as a reminder if you look at any watch company who give you any specifications on timing they all say the same thing more or less you do not time right after you fully wind up. you need to let it run down a little bit or stabilize or whatever they want to call it. Typically it's like 15 minutes up to about an hour is considered for wound up otherwise you get an artificially way too high of amplitude.

59 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

I am pretty pleased with the results as the positional variation is well controlled due to the good amplitude. Also the movement is cold and I expect about 5% amplitude increase when it's warm on the wrist.

out of curiosity does the watch keep time? 

[steve1811uk]

22 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

just as a reminder if you look at any watch company who give you any specifications on timing they all say the same thing more or less you do not time right after you fully wind up. you need to let it run down a little bit or stabilize or whatever they want to call it. Typically it's like 15 minutes up to about an hour is considered for wound up otherwise you get an artificially way too high of amplitude.

out of curiosity does the watch keep time? 

Watch is currently running at approx -6 SPD. Going to leave it two weeks before regulating as I don't like watches that lose time.

23 hours ago, steve1811uk said:

Thanks for the input guys. I revisited the 5606 with the following results DU/DD. Original Seiko mainspring fitted. This is with the timegrapher set to 51.5 degrees.

Full wind - 275 degrees

After 30 minutes - 265 degrees

After 9 hours - 250 degrees

After 24 hours - 220 degrees

I am pretty pleased with the results as the positional variation is well controlled due to the good amplitude. Also the movement is cold and I expect about 5% amplitude increase when it's warm on the wrist.

Note: These figures were before the dial side was assembled. After final assembly the figures are lowered by about 10°.

[VWatchie]

On 11/5/2022 at 11:41 AM, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity does the watch keep time?

[steve1811uk]

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

It does

[watchweasol]

Hi that’s the crucial factor. It was designed to tell you the time with reasonabl accuracy, amplitude is a side issue,   If it works and is accurate.  It’s good.

[steve1811uk]

In my experience when judged on a consistent basis, rarely do the two not go hand in hand.

[VWatchie]

4 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

In my experience when judged on a consistent basis, rarely do the two not go hand in hand.

I've mentioned it before but I'll mention it again. When I was new, timing machines almost killed my interest in servicing and repairing. Firstly they are not always as accurate as we may think, and secondly, a movement may perform excellently even if it does not reach the desired amplitudes. For example, Japanese movements typically do not reach the amplitude levels of Swiss movements but can still perform just as well. One of my very finest timekeepers is an Enicar cal. 161 (Swiss ) but it has never reached an amplitude of more than about 250-260 degrees DU/DN being meticulously serviced and fully would.

I've had situations where a TM has indicated low amplitude when in reality the amplitude was more than acceptable. I've also had situations where the TM indicated errors in the escapement where there were none. Most of the time this is due to an incorrect set gain level on the TM.

In my opinion, TMs can not be used to determine if a watch is capable of keeping good time, they can only indicate it, but there's no guarantee. 

[mikepilk]

Well put @VWatchie, it's how it performs on the wrist that counts.

From the Seiko Service Guide:

180° vertical can only be about 220-230° horizontal.

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by mikepilk

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I've mentioned it before but I'll mention it again. When I was new, timing machines almost killed my interest in servicing and repairing. Firstly they are not always as accurate as we may think, and secondly, a movement may perform excellently even if it does not reach the desired amplitudes. For example, Japanese movements typically do not reach the amplitude levels of Swiss movements but can still perform just as well. One of my very finest timekeepers is an Enicar cal. 161 (Swiss ) but it has never reached an amplitude of more than about 250-260 degrees DU/DN being meticulously serviced and fully would.

I've had situations where a TM has indicated low amplitude when in reality the amplitude was more than acceptable. I've also had situations where the TM indicated errors in the escapement where there were none. Most of the time this is due to an incorrect set gain level on the TM.

In my opinion, TMs can not be used to determine if a watch is capable of keeping good time, they can only indicate it, but there's no guarantee. 

Ive had a few examples of watches with low amplitude before and after service that keep pretty good time. I think the isochronism more or less takes care of the timing. But what i have noticed because of the amount of friction causing the low amplitude that the power reserve is lower than specified,  often only 24 hours. Not really an issue if you wind your watch morning and night, but what damage is that extra friction causing ? 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

a movement may perform excellently even if it does not reach the desired amplitudes.

Notice what you just said? Does not reach the desired amplitude? That's the amusement with this group amplitude is the most important thing the desired amplitude is the most important thing and you must please the timing machine or else nothing is more important than pleasing your timing machine.

But yet when you look at timing specifications from the watch company except at 24 hours they could care less about amplitude unless it's too much. Then even Omega with some of their watches will be still acceptable At 160° as long as it's keeping time.

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

In my opinion, TMs can not be used to determine if a watch is capable of keeping good time, they can only indicate it, but there's no guarantee.

This is another amusement timing machine versus chronometer certification for instance. Chronometer certification relies on visual observation of what the hands are doing over a span of time typically in various positions with some temperature changes. They do not care what a timing machine says it's basically a test to see what the watch would do on somebody's wrist.

Timing machines only show you what the watches doing at the exact instant you have it on the machine. Yes that's a clue of what will probably happen but ideally you should have a better timing procedure. Most people I put the watch on the machine fully wound up in one position and think that's it. Ideally should look at the watch and more than one position because on your wrist is going to be in more than one position And then you should check it 24 hours later to see how it's doing. Plus you still need to run the watch for several days and make sure it actually does whenever you perceive it's doing.

When I was in school instructor George had all sorts of interesting sayings about things. This was a day where the timing machine spit out paper tape with two lines no digital numbers no amplitude just two lines possibly one line if it was in beat. But even then George had a saying don't please the timing machine they would probably be good for a lot of people on this group to remember that. The most important thing is does the watch keep time on your wrist or in your pocket or wherever you carry it. Timing machine is only a diagnostic tool that you do need to understand which are doing with that otherwise looks like your career and watch repair will be short-lived as you have a heart attack stressing over those numbers that don't really matter anyway as long as the watch keeps time.

 

[VWatchie]

Fantastic post @JohnR725! I especially enjoyed and could relate to the last sentence 

[VWatchie]

20 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Well put @VWatchie, it's how it performs on the wrist that counts.

From the Seiko Service Guide:

180° vertical can only be about 220-230° horizontal.

 

 

 

The Seiko Service Guide that you mentioned would be interesting reading. Can you upload it or provide a link? I did Google it a bit and found https://myretrowatches.co.uk/seiko-data-sheets/ but I don't think it is there!?

[JohnR725]

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

he Seiko Service Guide that you mentioned would be interesting reading. Can you upload it

As far as I can tell this is the only tech guide from Seiko that actually tells you the amplitude.

Seiko-4006A_TECH.pdf

[VWatchie]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:49 AM, JohnR725 said:

As far as I can tell this is the only tech guide from Seiko that actually tells you the amplitude.

Seiko-4006A_TECH.pdf 17.69 MB · 4 downloads

What an unusually detailed document  Thank you!

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

What an unusually detailed document

how about a bonus document the lubrication guide.

Yes technical documentation for watch repair is quite interesting. A lot of this isn't obvious unless you know what it actually is supposed to look like. so much of the documentation we have was scan to PDFs for the purpose of parts identification only. It's why a lot of times that's all you see is the parts list you don't see if there ever was anything resembling servicing.

like for instance Longines I noticed this a while back when somebody need of the technical guide. The online version 5 pages the actual technical guide 19 pages. All of the service information a course is missing from the online version.

Is not just this but there's lots of technical stuff like this somebody last week was doing an Omega watch the parts list is just a picture of the parts on the discussion now there is a PDF of the service guide and the only reason that exists is I scanned it I believe six pages. I really do not like scanning technical documentation it's incredibly tedious to remember which page I was on and I get annoyed if I miss a page or have well duplicate would be fine but missing a page is an annoyance.

Seiko is another interesting one as you noticed nice and pretty and in color. Then a lot of the early ones were like that where they had the smaller images of these of the parts that go in and this step versus the drawings. But even the parts lists we typically don't see them as their really supposed to look because they are color-coded. Somebody didn't bother with the color and a lot of times they don't bother with the detail

so unfortunately yes there's a whole bunch of technical documentation out there in the world that still hasn't been converted to PDF.

 

 

Seiko-4006A_TECH_Oil.pdf