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Moving the stud carrier moves the balance wheel


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I was trying to regulate a just serviced International Durowe 7422 which had a 1.5ms beat error and when I moved the stud carrier the watch stopped. It turn out that a slight beat error adjustment overbanked the watch. I wound down the mainspring, reseated the balance,  and noticed that when I move the stud carrier the entire balance moves as shown in the video. How should I best address this?

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

I was trying to regulate a just serviced International Durowe 7422 which had a 1.5ms beat error and when I moved the stud carrier the watch stopped. It turn out that a slight beat error adjustment overbanked the watch. I wound down the mainspring, reseated the balance,  and noticed that when I move the stud carrier the entire balance moves as shown in the video. How should I best address this?

 

 

 

Adjusting the beat error will move the balance wheel . The hairspring is being moved and as it is attached to the collet, attached to the balance staff attached to the balance wheel. But i can see the movement seemes more instant than when the hairspring is moving the balance wheel. Are you able to physically hold the balance wheel in place while moving the stud arm ? Possibly a high torqued hs would do this.

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It appears the movable stud support and the regulator index are stiff with one another and can't turn independently, so when you move the movable stud support the index moves as well and if the hairspring is gripped between the curb pin and boot with no freedom to move, that in turn will move the whole balance around at the same time. I can't see the gap between the curb pin and boot to be sure on this. Did you check there was a gap for the hairspring before moving the stud support or index arm? If it is this, then you will need to take off the hairspring and balance from the balance cock and remove the stud support and index arm and clean it all. They are only held on the cock in a 'waist' so will pry off. There's a little cut in each one, so start there, but remember which one goes back first and which orientation. It's easy to get the stud support on the wrong side of the index arm when re-assembling

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Hi  depending on your dexterity one could move the stud support for a good delta number 0.0ms or as close to as possible then check the rate. To adjust the rate hold the stud support and move the regulator independently. I the regulator and stud support are very stiff there is no recourse but to dismantle the cock and free off the action.

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52 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Adjusting the beat error will move the balance wheel . The hairspring is being moved and as it is attached to the collet, attached to the balance staff attached to the balance wheel. But i can see the movement seemes more instant than when the hairspring is moving the balance wheel. Are you able to physically hold the balance wheel in place while moving the stud arm ? Possibly a high torqued hs would do this.

Yes, I can hold the balance wheel and still move the stud arm (the regulator arm moves with it). On other watches I've worked on when I move the stud carrier the balance as a whole does not move so something seems off here to me.

 

29 minutes ago, Jon said:

It appears the movable stud support and the regulator index are stiff with one another and can't turn independently, so when you move the movable stud support the index moves as well and if the hairspring is gripped between the curb pin and boot with no freedom to move, that in turn will move the whole balance around at the same time. I can't see the gap between the curb pin and boot to be sure on this. Did you check there was a gap for the hairspring before moving the stud support or index arm? If it is this, then you will need to take off the hairspring and balance from the balance cock and remove the stud support and index arm and clean it all. They are only held on the cock in a 'waist' so will pry off. There's a little cut in each one, so start there, but remember which one goes back first and which orientation. It's easy to get the stud support on the wrong side of the index arm when re-assembling

When I reassembled the watch I noticed that the hairspring wasn't flat and the outermost part of the spring looked like it was being pulled up towards the bridge. I moved the stud down just a hair and now the spring does look flatter than before. However, before I moved it down I did notice that the spring was already at the bottom of the regulator boot/pin interface where there is little to no room b/w the boot and pin so moving it down more may be causing it to rub on the boot (?).  The video below shows the hs b/w the boot and pin.

8 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  depending on your dexterity one could move the stud support for a good delta number 0.0ms or as close to as possible then check the rate. To adjust the rate hold the stud support and move the regulator independently. I the regulator and stud support are very stiff there is no recourse but to dismantle the cock and free off the action.


After the above tip about holding the balance before moving the stud arm, if I hold the balance stable I can then move the stud support and I have been able to get it down to 0 - 0.2 ms BE which I'm happy with. So I guess I just need to figure out why I can't move the stud carrier or regulator arm independently.

 

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33 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Yes, I can hold the balance wheel and still move the stud arm (the regulator arm moves with it). On other watches I've worked on when I move the stud carrier the balance as a whole does not move so something seems off here to me.

 

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding something here. The hs is attached to the stud arm via the stud. If you move the stud arm you move the stud in doing so also move the hs. Yes  with so far ?. The hs is attached to the collet attached to the staff attached to the balance wheel. When you move the stud arm you are altering the balance wheel's  beat, to do that the balance wheel has to move to bring the movement into beat by positioning the impulse jewel that is attached to the balance wheel between the pallet fork. The timing regulator does sometimes move along with the stud if they are fastened a little tight you just have to hold it in place.  So as a test for the aforementioned  hold the balance wheel, move the stud arm then let the wheel go. Does it spring into position to suit the stud arm's position ?

2 hours ago, Jon said:

if the hairspring is gripped between the curb pin and boot with no freedom to move, that in turn will move the whole balance around at the same time.

Not sure i get this Jon. Every watch i have ever adjusted into beat has moved the balance wheel into an in beat position.

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2 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

Yes, I can hold the balance wheel and still move the stud arm (the regulator arm moves with it). On other watches I've worked on when I move the stud carrier the balance as a whole does not move so something seems off here to me.

 

When I reassembled the watch I noticed that the hairspring wasn't flat and the outermost part of the spring looked like it was being pulled up towards the bridge. I moved the stud down just a hair and now the spring does look flatter than before. However, before I moved it down I did notice that the spring was already at the bottom of the regulator boot/pin interface where there is little to no room b/w the boot and pin so moving it down more may be causing it to rub on the boot (?).  The video below shows the hs b/w the boot and pin.


After the above tip about holding the balance before moving the stud arm, if I hold the balance stable I can then move the stud support and I have been able to get it down to 0 - 0.2 ms BE which I'm happy with. So I guess I just need to figure out why I can't move the stud carrier or regulator arm independently.

 

Because they are meant to slide independently of each other, but over time they have become jammed with crud and stuff, so will need cleaning by taking them apart if you want them to move independently!

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Not sure i get this Jon. Every watch i have ever adjusted into beat has moved the balance wheel into an in beat position.

You're right, if you move the stud support the balance will move in that direction as well to bring the impulse jewel into the centre of the bankings, but the same will happen in the scenario of the curb pin and boot gripping the hairspring and the stud support and index moving at the same time and distance and not crumple the hairspring. You could argue in this situation, is it the stud support pushing the hairspring and balance around, or is it the index/curb pin and boot gripping the hairspring that is pulling the hairspring and balance around, as the stud support and index are fused together? 

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44 minutes ago, Jon said:

Because they are meant to slide independently of each other, but over time they have become jammed with crud and stuff, so will need cleaning by taking them apart if you want them to move independently!

You're right, if you move the stud support the balance will move in that direction as well to bring the impulse jewel into the centre of the bankings, but the same will happen in the scenario of the curb pin and boot gripping the hairspring and the stud support and index moving at the same time and distance and not crumple the hairspring. You could argue in this situation, is it the stud support pushing the hairspring and balance around, or is it the index/curb pin and boot gripping the hairspring that is pulling the hairspring and balance around, as the stud support and index are fused together? 

Appreciate that Jon, thought i was confusing the question.

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I think the regulator should move together with stud arm. This way, when adjusting the beat error, the effective hairspring length doesn't change. But it is important that the regulator should be able to move without moving the stud arm. Or else the beat error will change whenever the timing is adjusted.

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59 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I think the regulator should move together with stud arm. This way, when adjusting the beat error, the effective hairspring length doesn't change. But it is important that the regulator should be able to move without moving the stud arm. Or else the beat error will change whenever the timing is adjusted.

Good point Hector, your first point will keep the timing rate the same. 

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7 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

when I move the stud carrier the entire balance moves

On some of the watch movements I have worked on, moving the stud carrier, the regulator also moves in tandem with the stud carrier, which I think is due to the way the regulator arm is held under the stud carrier.

Moving the regulator, however, the stud carrier does not move.

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46 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

On some of the watch movements I have worked on, moving the stud carrier, the regulator also moves in tandem with the stud carrier, which I think is due to the way the regulator arm is held under the stud carrier.

Moving the regulator, however, the stud carrier does not move.

 

Yeah, earlier today I pulled a few movements out and for all three of them when I move the stud arm it moved the regulator. None of the balances moved when I moved the stud arm, unlike in my original video. I only moved the arm 1 mm or less, but in every case the balance was stationary, unlike in my original video where even the slightest movement of the stud arm move the balance in a 1:1 fashion.

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18 hours ago, watchweasol said:

delta number 0.0ms

Eyup WW . Hope you are well. What is this # Delta # ?.  I've heard John mention it a few times and thought it was a misspelling as he sometimes has when explaining something. But now you have used the term I'm curious to know what it is please. Tried googling it but nothing relevant is coming up.

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I think WW was referring to beat error. Delta is the term used for the difference in rate between different positions. If you had +5 DU and -7 DD you have a Delta of 12 between those positions. I pretty much always check in 6 positions, 4 vert., 2 hor., and look at both the Delta and the average rate over those 6 positions.

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On 11/3/2022 at 2:15 PM, nickelsilver said:

I think WW was referring to beat error. Delta is the term used for the difference in rate between different positions. If you had +5 DU and -7 DD you have a Delta of 12 between those positions. I pretty much always check in 6 positions, 4 vert., 2 hor., and look at both the Delta and the average rate over those 6 positions.

Thanks for explanation Nicklesilver 👍 

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