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First movement - basketcase Seiko 5 - let's dig in!


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3 hours ago, Argon said:

wow, looks like you're really hitting it, well done!

As for me... I am still testing if this is the right hobby for me, so... two oil sorts will have to do for now. I did not open the main spring barrel, but I cleaned everything else. I also managed to sort my screws and everything was looking good, except the day was not changing properly. After a bit of assembling, disassembling, trying... I broke the tiny lever that allows the jump change of the day... sigh sigh... So now I would be also interested in buying a spare 7009A movement

 

I'm in Australia, so parts/movements are fairly difficult to come by or just too pricey in general. I found this company in The Netherlands called speedtimerkollektion that sell job lots of parts, movements, cases etc for all kinds of watches. I managed to get 4x defective 7009a's plus shipping for $38 AUS. That's about the same price as one of the cheapest Mumbai specials on eBay. Time will tell if it was a worthwhile purchase or not, but I figure at least I'll have enough spares to get one working movement out of the lot.

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On 11/27/2022 at 1:15 AM, lexacat said:

 

I'm in Australia, so parts/movements are fairly difficult to come by or just too pricey in general. I found this company in The Netherlands called speedtimerkollektion that sell job lots of parts, movements, cases etc for all kinds of watches. I managed to get 4x defective 7009a's plus shipping for $38 AUS. That's about the same price as one of the cheapest Mumbai specials on eBay. Time will tell if it was a worthwhile purchase or not, but I figure at least I'll have enough spares to get one working movement out of the lot.

Wow, thanks a lot! This Dutch website is perfect for me, because I won't have to pay extra import taxes. And 34.50 Eur for 4 movements sounds pretty reasonable

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Super glad this is my "learning" watch. With all my experimentation getting the mainspring in and out and in, and out.. by hand... I managed to snap the bridle off it. I decided to put the movement together with an empty barrel, but unfortunately the first reduction wheel holder (worlds smallest circlip) has vanished. I have genuinely no idea, as I saw it go into the parts container, and I never saw it come out. My best guess is aliens.

Trying to put this thing back together and it is in such terrible, no good, awful shape. Just rust on corrosion on grime on rye. Even after hours of cleaning the pawl lever and first reduction wheel are in shocking shape.

I'm pretty convinced this watch was put together from all the "too rusty" parts left over from servicing other watches. 

So, at this stage the whole project is on hold until the repair/restore movements apparate and I get that new cheap mainspring winder I purchased. I'll likely keep pulling movements apart until I get a complete set of serviceable parts. 

Sometime in the new year I think.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hey guys! Merry Christmas! It's been a while since the last update. Have been grinding away at end of year work, doing the Christmas thing, and also caught covid a couple weeks back, so there's been a lot going on.

Have been waiting on more bits and pieces, tools and such to arrive before making any more headway.  I've received my super cheap mainspring winders in the mail and managed to wind a 7009 mainspring and get it back into a barrel, so that's nice!

1065353116_IMG_20221211_153954(1).thumb.jpg.d76a35bbdb71b4cc042f4d60270b2044.jpg

 

I've also taken delivery of 4x 7009a parts/restoration movements from SpeedTimerKollektion. I got some small ziploc bags and a cheap small parts case, and have very carefully disassembled and catalogued every part of this movement. Here are 5x 7009a movements worth of parts.

IMG_20221227_172551.thumb.jpg.b9826e8eb47149b976b1158e3b573268.jpg

 

Interestingly, the unmarked bag in the front of the container has a small cock/bridge and screw that came out of the Mumbai Special that was the original subject of this thread. These parts are not in the 7009a service manual and were not found on any of the other 4x movements that I recently got. Anyone have any idea what these are? I'm gonna have to look through some other seiko movement manuals to figure it out, but I don't think this Mumbai Special was a 7009a.

IMG_20221227_174028.thumb.jpg.b6eaba48a47ecce794accfcfc2a27b77.jpg

 

Next steps are to sort through and gather the best looking parts, give them a clean and try and assemble one complete working movement out of this mess.

I've got a case and some new dials on the way, and I might look into getting some new hands as the ones I've got are all fairly beat up, but I'm hopeful I can get this all done now I have some spare time for the next week or two.

EDIT A COUPLE HOURS LATER.

Well, I'm a step closer to unraveling the mystery of the parts. On the left is the main plate they belong to, and on the right is a standard (if rusty) 7009a main plate. It looks like this cock/bridge acts as cap jewels for a couple of pivots. On a regular main plate these are just open jewels that pivots sit in, but for this plate they have this bridge with the two cap jewels to suspend the lubricant and capture the pivots.

I'm not entirely sure why, but I'm wondering if this is one of theose Allwyn seiko clones I've heard were manufactured in India. 

difference.jpg

Edited by lexacat
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This piece is, as you guessed, kind of cap jewels. The piece is called "Lower end piece for third escape wheel", and is part of the 7019 movement.

Be aware that some parts of the 7019 movement are not compatible with the equivalent 7009 part, for example the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and escape wheels are not compatible.

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7 hours ago, aac58 said:

This piece is, as you guessed, kind of cap jewels. The piece is called "Lower end piece for third escape wheel", and is part of the 7019 movement.

Be aware that some parts of the 7019 movement are not compatible with the equivalent 7009 part, for example the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and escape wheels are not compatible.

Uh oh, hahaha. Thanks for letting me know!

Guess I'm spending the day with a loupe on trying to sort out all these parts again, hopefully the differences in these parts are obvious enough I can work it all out.

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A FEW HOURS LATER

I made a spreadsheet to compare the part numbers for both 7009A and 7019A movements, and it looks like these are the parts that don't match. Now I just gotta dig those bags out and try and find the odd ones out.

  • Intermediate Date Wheel
  • Barrel and Train Wheel Bridge
  • Pallet Cock Screws
  • Bridge Screw
  • Third Wheel and Pinion
  • Escape Wheel

Hopefully the differences are noticeable enough under magnification, the screws have me worried though.

A SHORT WHILE LATER

Welp, I'm pretty sure now that only the main plate was different. I got all the parts under the microscope and did  A/B comparisons and couldn't find any differences at all. 

I did manage to uncover a third wheel and an escape with missing pivots, so that's nice. They're out of rotation now.

Next step, curate a full set of the best looking parts and clean them.

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Glad I've had multiple movements worth of parts to choose from. My best looking main plate has a badly cracked center bearing jewel. This is a repairable part, I could remove the jewel from one of the other mainplates and install it into this one, but unfortunately no staking set, and probably a little above my pay grade for a first movement.

From about 8 to 12 o'clock in this picture a huge chunk of the jewel is missing 

IMG_20221230_135856.thumb.jpg.694b61445999afd2ddd12bf6f226fc79.jpg

 

Of the other 4 main plates I have, one is for a 7019 and two have fairly rusted eccentric dial pins. The last one needed a fair amount of cleaning but has no real issues, so I'm lucky to have that one.

Whilst curating my list of "best" parts last night I did manage to uncover more issues, such as a center wheel and cannon pinion (224 007) that was missing the entire cannon pinion section. Also a couple of other wheel missing pinions and a fairly bent click.

IMG_20221230_143220.thumb.jpg.195084e31ec763bcf308cb74478097ea.jpg

For cleaning these parts the plan is the following:

  1. US clean with warm water and dish soap.
  2. US rinse with distilled water.
  3. Rinse in IPA (except pallet fork and balance).
  4. Rinse balance and pallet fork in Shellite (basically naptha).

I've watched so many different videos and read so many different things regarding cleaning on a budget, it's all blending together a bit and I feel like I'm losing track.

Does this look alright, any recommendations or warning?



 

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On 12/28/2022 at 7:16 AM, lexacat said:

Welp, I'm pretty sure now that only the main plate was different. I got all the parts under the microscope and did  A/B comparisons and couldn't find any differences at all. 

I'm not sure about that. At least I think that the 7019 escape wheel is different. Now I can't remember if I've tried to install a 7019 escape wheel on a 7009 movement or viceversa, but the wheel was not compatible and the bridge couldn't be installed on top of it.

Edited by aac58
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Cheers guys! 

Aac58, I'll compare all the escape wheels again, and I happen to have a beat up Actus with a 7019 movement in it that I might pull the escape from to compare. 

It might explain where the escape wheel with the broken pivot came from actually. 

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Welp I pulled the working 7019 in my actus apart and got the escape out. Trying to eyeball against the other 4 escape wheels I have in storage and I swear any difference was probably totally in my head. 

Without a micrometer and decent microscope set up I don't think it's actually possible to be sure of the differences. I think I could eee slightly shorter staves on the non geared ends of what I suspect the 7019 escape wheels are. 

I got the actus back together and ticking and removed a suspect wheel from my 7009a storage, but honestly... Who knows? 

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I spent the day working on putting this together, only a few minor hiccups but a lot of learning. 

I desperately need a better magnification setup, I literally can't see the pallet stones well enough to oil them properly. 

I ruined the hairspring by not being patient enough. Luckily I could pull the balance complete from the 7019 and it was in good order. I now have 4 wrecked balances, only 1 by me. 

I need way more experience in lubricating. I think I did okay for a first try, but next time will be much better. 

But in the end it's together and it's working! I'm going to give it 24 hours to run before trying to regulate, but initially it's pretty terrible. Beat error around 8-9ms, running fast by 200+ sec, and amplitude around 170/180.

Interested to see what it is tomorrow. 

 

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Welp, first thing this morning I thought I might check to see if the watch was  magnetised and it was. So I did a couple of passes over the demagnetiser, with the balance out, and that was an exercise in madness. No matter what tutorials I follow or methods I try, the movement always has some kind of magnefication. I demagnetised the balance separately in a ziploc bag and that seems okay. 

Putting the balance back in has been a nightmare, and now the watch will only run dial down. In dial up, the balance slows to a crawl and eventually stops fully. Turning the movement back over and trying to get the balance running again, it just bounces back and forth a couple of millimeters and sticks back into position, like it's magnetically attracted to something.

Overall, I'm not happy in the least with this so plan to pull it all apart again, clean and inspect, individually demag each part and try again.

I'm going to wait until I can get my hands on a better magnification setup.

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UPDATE: I removed the balance, cleaned it again, removed the shock setting and cleaned and lubricated again, put the balance complete back in the movement and it's now running dial up. So it appears I screwed up lubricating the shock jewels on the balance.

 

UPDATE TWO MILLION AND ONE:

I gotta admit I got pretty depressed about this not turning out very well, but I'm fairly ecstatic now. After fixing the lubrication on the balance I got it on my timegrapher and thought I might take a crack at regulating it. The balance issue seems to have fixed the amplitude nicely also.

This is was I was working with, +468s and 6.8ms beat error. 

IMG_20230105_134713.thumb.jpg.bb9f2867c1f998acc83ad3dcf8b40e3f.jpg

 

After a bunch of fettling I got some figures I'm happy with. I might be able to tweak the beat error some more, but I'm taking this win.

Dial down:

  • 0s/d
  • 253deg amplitude
  • 0.4ms beat error

IMG_20230105_142608.thumb.jpg.1f7de76ef616cece36141503e4765d0f.jpg

 

Dial up:

  • +2s/d
  • 251deg amplitude
  • 0.5ms beat error

IMG_20230105_142708.thumb.jpg.ee18ac30fc50d3a3be07296a48c77e31.jpg

 

Crown up:

  • -1s/d
  • 226deg amplitude
  • 0.2ms beat error

IMG_20230105_142800.thumb.jpg.9fb407ec959bca68b462fdcb5bd3bcfe.jpg

 

Crown down:

  • +7s/d
  • 228deg amplitude
  • 0.6ms beat error

IMG_20230105_142912.thumb.jpg.d118e178ae5d83a2fef0a891086958f5.jpg

 

 

Not perfect numbers for sure, but I'm super happy.

 

Now I'm just waiting for some parts to arrive, a case and movement rings, and I've realised I need some dial spacer rings too so I'll need to wait for those to turn up.

 

In the meantime I might see if I can get another one of these junk movements going! I need another balance/spring though...

 

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On 12/27/2022 at 10:16 PM, lexacat said:

I made a spreadsheet to compare the part numbers for both 7009A and 7019A movements,

Just for future reference there are people out there that have already done the spreadsheet for you in a way. Like for instance here's a website in click on your part and ill tell you all the watches are supposed to have the same part

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_7009A

 

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45 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Just for future reference there are people out there that have already done the spreadsheet for you in a way. Like for instance here's a website in click on your part and ill tell you all the watches are supposed to have the same part

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_7009A

 

That's super handy, thanks! 

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Okay I couldn't wait for parts so I've swapped it into my daily driver, which is another 7009. I need new hands to match the dial, but I'm so stoked to have something I put together from 6 watches on my wrist and working. 

 

IMG_20230105_200143.jpg

Edited by lexacat
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And now it's back in pieces haha. 

It ran out of wind and stopped working. One of the teeth on the pawl lever appears to be really worn. On further inspection the reduction wheel has rust on the teeth that I didn't spot on first clean, which might have been wearing the lever down. Oops. 

Then when dismantling I also noticed no power was coming through the train and the barrel seemed to wind forever. I know it's an auto, but I felt zero resistance from the mainspring. 

So now it's apart. I'll give it another clean and put it back together, hopefully even better this time. 

It's good learning. 

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6 hours later. 

It's been cleaned, checked over, and some more parts replaced. I managed to lose a diashock spring. Left it on a case cushion and when I looked up it was gone. Getting better at using the loupes and lubricating, but still making mistakes and generally slow going. 

This time I put it back together without following a tutorial, just trying to remember where each piece goes, what needs lubricating, and familiarising myself with the movement. It went really well. 

I'll leave it ticking away until tomorrow, then I'll check it and regulate it again and complete putting it together. 

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Well the learning continues. There's something seriously wrong with this movement. It's like the mainspring isn't holding any wind or something. I crank a bunch of turns on the ratchet wheel, and the pallet flicks over once, twice, and then that's it, there's no more power to the pallet. 

I go to let down the mainspring but there's nothing in there. 

Not sure what my next moves are. I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the way I'm lubricating the barrel. What's the ideal way to do this? I've been putting a drop of 8217 on the wall in 4 spots, then putting a small amount of d5 on the mainspring. Should I not put the d5 on there? Not lubricate the mainspring at all just the barrel? 

I'll probably be pulling it all apart again tomorrow.

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Well, after all that, I think the only actual issue was the worn pawl lever. I'm pretty sure there was nothing else wrong with the movement. I think I was just "looking" for problems, but we'll see how long it keeps running for.

All back together now, I decided to use a $5 dial I got from Ali Express, completely the wrong movement name and jewel count but I actually like the look. I don't have any nice hands so have put on some beat up old gold ones that came on a non-running movement from speedtimerkollektion.

I also gave the case and bracelet a bit of a bath in the ultrasonic, it was filthy.

I haven't put in back on the timegrapher yet, it still needs to be regulated/checked again, but I'll likely see if it keeps running for 24 hours first.

IMG_20230108_125238.thumb.jpg.535d0e5c14aa1e7c461b42fc7209ca13.jpg

 

Definitely have much more of an idea of what I'm doing now.

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Hahaha it's dead again. This bloody thing I swear.

 

Balance stops in vertical positions, i.e. crown up/down, so I think I'm looking at balance issues. I'll re-clean and lubricate, check pivots and jewels, check hairspring. Annoying that it only started after running perfectly for 36 hours.

Edited by lexacat
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So I've removed the balance. Cleaned and re-lubricated. Replaced the pallet fork just in case, and relubricated the pallet stones. Put it all back together and it's working again for now. 

My gut is telling me it's going to stop again, and it's related to the train. I don't think the power is coming through consistently or releasing from the mainspring correctly. When I go to let down the mainspring, absolutely nothing happens. When I removed the pallet fork, all of a sudden the mainspring lets down. So, I think there's something binding occasionally which is preventing the mainspring from releasing power.

Likely I'll have it apart again fully before the weekend. I have another perfectly working 7009a that I can compare it to if it comes to that.

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