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First movement - basketcase Seiko 5 - let's dig in!


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I'm a complete beginner, but dead keen to get stuck in. I'm still waiting on some tools, holders, dial cushions etc to turn up, but I've decided I can still get to work disassembing my first movement. This is a 17 jewel Seiko 7009a. I bought this as a cheap practise movement (to be honest, nowhere near cheap enough), so I'm not super invested in this timepiece or keeping it authentic etc. At worst I see this as being used for parts in the future, but if I can disassemble, clean it up, reassemble and get it to tick I'll feel like that's achievement enough.

Straight off the bat, it looks like a clean enough watch, but if you know even a small amount about these movements you'll have already picked up on a few things. No Seiko will have "Japan Made" on the dial, it's obvious the dial is not sitting correctly in the case, the crown extends too far out (and is entirely the wrong type), there's no surround on the date window, there's no loom, no indices, the logo and badge are printed.. An obvious dial repaint, but that's fine, I don't want to risk ruining a nice watch on my first time out.

When you pull the crown out to set the time, the movement shakes around inside the case like a pinball, so obviously there's something up with the movement ring.

Also, I cannot got the strap off for the life of me.

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Timegrapher results are as expected, absolute chaos. Seriously low amplitude, terrible rate and beat error.

 

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Removing the movement was pretty standard, pull crown, push pin, remove stem, movement falls out.  Removed the hands, and then here's where it gets fun!

First thing I notice is that this thing is full of corrosion, especially on the side opposite the crown. One of the dial feet screws is especially rusted, but it turns out it doesn't matter! Stay tuned to find out why.

No gloves because this thing is going to get a thorough clean and I don't believe it's possible to make it worse than it is right now.

 

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Turned the dial feet screws but the dial just did not want to let go. Figured it was just being a bit stubborn, so started prying it with a screwdriver. Oh, it was being stubborn alright. Both the dial and the movement ring had been glued to the movement.

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Here's the front and back of the dial in all it's glory, complete with glue and no dial feet.

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Removed the oscillating weight and then started removing everything onthe dial side. The day corrector spring is absolutely covered in rust, as well as the plate underneath.

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A little while later and I've got a couple of trays full of parts waiting for a clean (once I'm set up for it). To be honest, I don't think I'll be able to clean these to any high degree of standard, but I'll try and do my best. When I next get time I'll be inspecting parts and jewels to see what kind of condition we're looking at, and to see if my cheap digital microscope is any good. I've got to get something to use for cleaning jars and baskets this week, then I'll be using dish soap for a degrease, then shellite (naptha) for clean and rinse in sealed jars in an ultrasonic. 

Pictures on the internet really don't do any justice for how absolutely ridiculously tiny these parts are, especially some of the screws. I've got everything sorted into what I hope is a logical grouping of screws and parts, hopefully not too much of a drama when it comes time to reassemble.

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Edited by lexacat
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59 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  sure is a crock of sh1t you got there.  Try The Nucejoe method of soaking the rusty bits in coke and giving a thorough brushing . the acid in the juice shifts the rust. good luck with it and keep us posted onterested to see how it goes.

Yeah isn't it great! What a complete timepiece of cr4p.

I was thinking a short amount of time in vinegar for the rust. At worst the parts disappear, which might be for the best? 

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Looks like a typical Mumbai special, did it come via eBay by any chance, I am starting to think almost all the Seiko watches on eBays pasted through  Mumbai at some stage, sold to the unsuspecting around the world only the quickly go back on eBay once the owner realised what a crock of shite it really was.

You do have to laugh at some of their descriptions though, with a new old stock watch being listed as having a new case, crystal, dial and strap because the old ones where rusty, a rusty crystal how did they manage that and not much of a new old stock left of that watch.

When I started in watch repairs I bought quite a few 7009a movements to practice on and did buy a few Mumbie movements for spares as it was cheaper to buy a complete movement from India than one single part from the usual suppliers of second hand parts.

Have fun with yours just dont expect too much from it and good luck using the digital microscope but most agree they are more of a hindrance that a help and only useful for inspection and almost no use for assembly, a low end stereo microscope is much easier to use for assembly as the stereo vision give you much better depth perception.

But that's an expense for the future.

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23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I can wish you luck with everything except that cheap digital microscope they are just kids toy. 

Digital microscopes are not as good as a binocular or trinocular real thing but, for those of us that for any reason cannot afford one of these, digital units are a valuable tool for inspection and other tasks. I'm reasonably happy with my little toy, that I use for after cleaning inspection, oiling the pallet stones (usually uninstalled) and working with diafix jewels just to name a few things.

I hope the OP can take advantage of his until he has a better one.

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Heya, thanks guys! 

On 10/30/2022 at 8:01 PM, Nucejoe said:

Doesn't look bad, a 48 hr soak in Coca-Cola and a used tooth brush cleans it to your surprise.

That's a great idea, unfortunately I've moved onto soda water for my mixers in recent years! I've got the worst parts in white vinegar, same pH as coke but less sugar to clean up. I'll give it overnight, but I don't think there will be any issues. I've used it plenty of times for rust removal before, but only on much, much larger things.

 

14 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Looks like a typical Mumbai special, did it come via eBay by any chance, I am starting to think almost all the Seiko watches on eBays pasted through  Mumbai at some stage, sold to the unsuspecting around the world only the quickly go back on eBay once the owner realised what a crock of shite it really was.

Haha, it was definintely an eBay purchase! I bought two 7009s from two different sellers. The other is more authentic looking, but no lume on the dial. It has the logo and badge, as well as the datetime window and a seiko branded/styled stainless band though, and the pattern on the dial doesn't look like a reprint. That one is running really, really well (compared to this at any rate), +4s and no beat error. So a bit of a crap shoot but I think there are good things out there if you know what to look for and get lucky.

I bought the subject of this thread in particular because it was so awful.

14 hours ago, Paul80 said:

You do have to laugh at some of their descriptions though, with a new old stock watch being listed as having a new case, crystal, dial and strap because the old ones where rusty, a rusty crystal how did they manage that and not much of a new old stock left of that watch.

Haha yup, absolutely. This is from the listing:

*We Sell Vintage Automatic Mechanical Watches.

*All watches are recently serviced keeping perfect time.

*Costumer Satisfaction is our motto.

I guess I'm not satisfied because I'm not a costumer?

 

14 hours ago, Paul80 said:

When I started in watch repairs I bought quite a few 7009a movements to practice on and did buy a few Mumbie movements for spares as it was cheaper to buy a complete movement from India than one single part from the usual suppliers of second hand parts.

Have fun with yours just dont expect too much from it and good luck using the digital microscope but most agree they are more of a hindrance that a help and only useful for inspection and almost no use for assembly, a low end stereo microscope is much easier to use for assembly as the stereo vision give you much better depth perception.

 

Yup, that's exactly the plan here. I figure the 7009 is popular enough that I can find parts/spares/movements pretty much anywhere, so I've bought a couple to play around with. I've also got a newer Rotary with an HZ2189G skeleton movement which is based on a Seiko (7002 I think?). Plus I've got a 7019 in an Actus here. Once I cut my teeth on the 7009's I'll start branching out to the other movements and get those serviced. Then I've got a couple of Swiss here I'd like to work on.

 

On 10/30/2022 at 8:01 PM, Nucejoe said:

I can wish you luck with everything except that cheap digital microscope they are just kids toy. 

 

Oh, I know that. I'm planning to see how far I can take this thing before I spring for a cheap stereo microscope setup, but a mainspring winder set will have to come before that. In the meantime I've got loupes for assembly and inspection, I'll just have to make do.

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30 minutes ago, lexacat said:

same pH as coke but less sugar to clean up. I'll give it overnight, but I don't think there will be any issues. I've used it plenty of times for rust removal before, but only on much, much larger things

Just be a bit canny on the overnight soak matey. Small watch parts do not endure vinegar the same way large chunks of iron do. They turn a dull grey quite quickly. Also bere in mind that vinegar is at least 80 % water often more. Only a small amount of acetic acid, otherwise our fish and chips would dissolve in front of our very eyes ( ok slight exaggeration but you get my point )

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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just be a bit canny on the overnight soak matey. Small watch parts do not endure vinegar the same way large chunks of iron do. They turn a dull grey quite quickly. Also bere in mind that vinegar is at least 80 % water often more. Only a small amount of acetic acid, otherwise our fish and chips would dissolve in front of our very eyes ( ok slight exaggeration but you get my point )

Eep

Removed and dried, I'll check em in the morning. Might have to grab some coke after all. Good catch, thanks! 

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3 hours ago, lexacat said:

Heya, thanks guys! 

That's a great idea, unfortunately I've moved onto soda water for my mixers in recent years! I've got the worst parts in white vinegar, same pH as coke but less sugar to clean up. I'll give it overnight, but I don't think there will be any issues. I've used it plenty of times for rust removal before, but only on much, much larger things.

 

Vinegar can disolve some base metals, Coca Cola wont.

You will be somewhat pegging as you brush.

Rgds

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5 hours ago, lexacat said:

Cheers Nucejoe, I bought a can of coke this morning and have the rusty bits soaking in some now. 

Citric acid is known to work also. I haven't tried it but a while back a member used it to remove rust from a hairspring. Thats about as delicate as it gets, as far as i remember he had good results and outcome. The most effective method i have had to date with no negative impact at all was polishing a watch part with autosol. Quite time consuming and only works with light surface rust though as you are literally abrading the rust away. Fantasic for polishing your oilers.

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Kinda glad I started with this POS first my first time out. It's a good way for me to test various cheap cleaning methods to see what is going to work, the order to do things, etc.

I had the worst parts in coke for a little over 48 hours, then dropped them into shellite (a "residue free" hydrocarbon solvent) until I could clean them again, hoping that the shellite would remove the remaining coke. Unfortunately, that didn't seem to work, so now my parts tray has small amounts of sticky coke residue that needs cleaning.

Next up I put those parts into small stainless baskets (cheap tea infusers) and popped them in an ultrasonic bath with distilled water and dishwashing liquid to degrease them. Then popped those baskets into jars of shellite that I put back into the ultrasonic, mainly to disperse the water and keep the parts from rusting.

My mistake here is that I probably should have thoroughly rinsed in distilled water before placing back into shellite. The ultrasonic function turned the dishwashing liquid particles into an emulsion which then adhered to the parts. 

After all this, the parts still required a lot of attention with pegwood and other scraping tools (somewhere a dentist is missing his torture devices) to remove more staining and surface rust. They're back in shellite now (it's all I have) until I can think of a plan. Likely I'll run them through another degrease, thorough rinse, then shellite dunk.

This is just the worst of the parts, and I'm not even sure at this stage if this watch is ever getting put back together, let alone if it will run again.

 

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18 hours ago, lexacat said:

Kinda glad I started with this POS first my first time out. It's a good way for me to test various cheap cleaning methods to see what is going to work, the order to do things, etc.

I had the worst parts in coke for a little over 48 hours, then dropped them into shellite (a "residue free" hydrocarbon solvent) until I could clean them again, hoping that the shellite would remove the remaining coke. Unfortunately, that didn't seem to work, so now my parts tray has small amounts of sticky coke residue that needs cleaning.

Next up I put those parts into small stainless baskets (cheap tea infusers) and popped them in an ultrasonic bath with distilled water and dishwashing liquid to degrease them. Then popped those baskets into jars of shellite that I put back into the ultrasonic, mainly to disperse the water and keep the parts from rusting.

My mistake here is that I probably should have thoroughly rinsed in distilled water before placing back into shellite. The ultrasonic function turned the dishwashing liquid particles into an emulsion which then adhered to the parts. 

After all this, the parts still required a lot of attention with pegwood and other scraping tools (somewhere a dentist is missing his torture devices) to remove more staining and surface rust. They're back in shellite now (it's all I have) until I can think of a plan. Likely I'll run them through another degrease, thorough rinse, then shellite dunk.

This is just the worst of the parts, and I'm not even sure at this stage if this watch is ever getting put back together, let alone if it will run again.

 

What parts are you removing rust from and how bad is the rust ? Any pictures matey ?

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3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What parts are you removing rust from and how bad is the rust ? Any pictures matey ?

Heyo, it's the:

Day Corrector Spring
First Reduction Wheel
Pawl Lever
Ratchet Wheel
Barrel and Train-Wheel Bridge
A section of the main plate.

Plus the dial feet eccentric dial pins are pretty badly rusted.

The things I'm most concerned about are the first reduction wheel and the pawl lever, I can't seem to get them cleaned up enough. I'll upload some pics when I get home in about 10 hours tho.

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5 hours ago, lexacat said:

Heyo, it's the:

Day Corrector Spring
First Reduction Wheel
Pawl Lever
Ratchet Wheel
Barrel and Train-Wheel Bridge
A section of the main plate.

Plus the dial feet eccentric dial pins are pretty badly rusted.

The things I'm most concerned about are the first reduction wheel and the pawl lever, I can't seem to get them cleaned up enough. I'll upload some pics when I get home in about 10 hours tho.

You could try the vinegar, it is effective  but just try one part at a time with very short soaks and dry thoughly and finish with ipa rinses as it can actually cause rust. I have had it take the shine off parts. Fibreglass pens also work well but more suited to big parts and they can scratch if heavy handed with them

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 Following the soak in Coca Cola,  brush under running tap water,  use of  powedered detergent as a cleanser is useful. This method is good only for parts that you can brush,   next peg and its ready for the ultrasonic bath.

No clean repairs rust damaged surface.

Rgds

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Thanks Nucejoe! I'm probably going to clean these parts again, but I'm going to hold off for the time being. Since the last time I was here I decided to try and open the barrel to inspect the mainspring, thinking I might at least have a crack at getting it out and cleaning/lubricating. 

I don't think the top half of the barrel has landed yet and I'm pretty sure the arbor burnt up on re-entry.

I've found a source of relatively cheap 7009a movements for parts/repair so have purchased 4. I should have enough spare parts for this movement then that I can get at least one of them to work. Unfortunately everything that gets mailed to me has to pass the entire planet 4 times in a boat, so it's gonna be a bit before they turn up.

 

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Hi Lexacat  Just a little tip when prying parts or removing click springs etc   put the whole lot in a clear plastic bag (Large one) and either cut the end off and work in side with both hands or if big enough from one end. That way when things go into orbit they stay in the bag so easily retrievable and you dont wear out the trouser knees looking for them.       cheers.

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Thanks guys!

@watchweasol I'd read before about using clear bags to open things in. I'll probably look into doing that for most springs and MS barrels in the future, at least until I get more of a feel for what I'm doing.

@argon Thanks for the link! I've got that one saved. I have questions about the lubrication they're using and what the best alternatives would be. I've got a pretty full suite of everything I need, just a matter of knowing what to put where... when the time comes I'll cross that bridge.

Amazingly I've not been able to locate the geared side of the barrel, arguably the largest part and what should be the easiest to locate, but the arbor just appeared next to me! It was on a seat cushion next to me, where I swear I'd looked a hundred times. I just glanced over and it was sitting there staring at me. So now if I could possibly locate the other half of the barrel I might test putting it back together.

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Yes lubrication is an issue for us beginners... @watchweasolgenerously shared a PDF with some alternatives to Moebius, but it depends on where you live (here I cannot purchase what he is suggesting, for example).

...btw, I have almost finished reassembling my 7009a, but... at one or two screws are missing. And I really did not realize loosing them at any time during the previous operations, sigh...

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On 11/19/2022 at 7:51 PM, Argon said:

Yes lubrication is an issue for us beginners... @watchweasolgenerously shared a PDF with some alternatives to Moebius, but it depends on where you live (here I cannot purchase what he is suggesting, for example).

...btw, I have almost finished reassembling my 7009a, but... at one or two screws are missing. And I really did not realize loosing them at any time during the previous operations, sigh...

Oh no! That's not good!

I actually found a site that sells job lots of various calibers for parts/repair at (what I consider) a decent price. I've bought 4 more 7009a's, just waiting for them to be delivered. I figured I'm going to lose parts so having spares will be good.

I've managed to slowly get everything I need in regards to the oils. 9010, D5, 9415, Molykote DX, 8200 and 8217. That should cover my bases for everything. Also a silicone sponge greaser. It took a long time to get everything and cost a lot of money, but I've discovered time and money is the name of the game for this hobby.

I was digging through my desk drawer the other day and actually found the bottom half of the barrel! It had flung in there and disappeared towards the back. So I've managed to recover all the missing parts now. I've managed to work out a process for manually reinstalling the mainspring and arbor, but I've ordered some really cheap winders from Ali express that will be delivered in the new year. I'm going to try and give this crappy old movement a proper clean and see if I can get it back together though, just for practise.

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wow, looks like you're really hitting it, well done!

As for me... I am still testing if this is the right hobby for me, so... two oil sorts will have to do for now. I did not open the main spring barrel, but I cleaned everything else. I also managed to sort my screws and everything was looking good, except the day was not changing properly. After a bit of assembling, disassembling, trying... I broke the tiny lever that allows the jump change of the day... sigh sigh... So now I would be also interested in buying a spare 7009A movement

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