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Omega 711 cannon pinion problems


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I have been servicing this Omega 711 movement for an eternity now because I have not been able to solve the cannon pinion problem. What happens is that the cannon pinion just slides of the post when running the keyless works for a couple of turns. It clicks on nicely but indeed pretty loosely. I have ordered a new cannon pinion and the wheel it sits on but I am experiencing the same problem and I am imagining that the parts that I ordered are likewise a little too loose. Or is this perhaps not the issue. None of the keyless works or the barrel are rubbing up agains the brass wheel on the cannon pinion. My thought was that maybe I could mushroom the post out a little to make the pinion sit tighter with my staking set. This is not a cannon pinion which you can pinch either. 

I just wanted to get some advice here before I begin doing stuff I don't know anything about. 
Thanks for any help(:

 

How it is supposed to be.                                                                                                                After turning crown for a couple of turns. 

 IMG-0853.thumb.jpg.3da51aa07a125dcc80006486e81f2aaa.jpgIMG-0856.thumb.jpg.c73a222a39417d942880fa4b6801ea51.jpg

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Hi  was there as washer on the hour wheel when you first started . When the dial is on the dial washer curves upward and is pushed down with the dial therefore holding down the hour wheel and canon.  before you start bashing things try a dial washer and see how it goes with the dial on.  One assumes its the right hour wheel and canon pinion,      have a look at Ranfft site for the omega 711. 

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14 hours ago, BrehmerR said:

new cannon pinion and the wheel it sits on but I am experiencing the same problem

when you're experiencing the same problem with the replacement parts did it ever occur to you that perhaps they're not the problem?

I don't suppose you have the tech sheet for this watch?

then did you notice this doesn't quite look like a normal watch? Like there's extra stuff perhaps or is just don't look quite right I wonder if that would change any of this?

14 hours ago, BrehmerR said:

My thought was that maybe I could mushroom the post out a little to make the pinion sit tighter with my staking set. This is not a cannon pinion which you can pinch either. 

seems like a good plan we all like to do that with watches that are misbehaving. Although occasionally I think explosives might be nice to deal with the watch but that's probably not what we should be doing.

Now all kidding aside I was noticing it doesn't quite look like a regular watch and it's an Omega watch? this is where you should of stepped back and reevaluated the situation of why things do not seem to be behaving the way you perceive and replacement components did not fix the problem they are behaving exactly the same as the original components.

to explain the problem are having I've attached some PDFs and I snipped an image out of one of them.

15 hours ago, BrehmerR said:

It clicks on nicely but indeed pretty loosely.

then seeing as how you have two of them which one is the problem?

 

 

 

Omega 711 keyless confusion.JPG

Omega 711_complet_4190.pdf 399_Omega 711 NewLR.pdf

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13 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  was there as washer on the hour wheel when you first started . When the dial is on the dial washer curves upward and is pushed down with the dial therefore holding down the hour wheel and canon.  before you start bashing things try a dial washer and see how it goes with the dial on.  One assumes its the right hour wheel and canon pinion,      have a look at Ranfft site for the omega 711. 

I have tried with a dial washer but that does not work either. The dial does not seem to be pushing the centre wheel cannon pinion down whatsoever. 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

when you're experiencing the same problem with the replacement parts did it ever occur to you that perhaps they're not the problem?

I don't suppose you have the tech sheet for this watch?

then did you notice this doesn't quite look like a normal watch? Like there's extra stuff perhaps or is just don't look quite right I wonder if that would change any of this?

seems like a good plan we all like to do that with watches that are misbehaving. Although occasionally I think explosives might be nice to deal with the watch but that's probably not what we should be doing.

Now all kidding aside I was noticing it doesn't quite look like a regular watch and it's an Omega watch? this is where you should of stepped back and reevaluated the situation of why things do not seem to be behaving the way you perceive and replacement components did not fix the problem they are behaving exactly the same as the original components.

to explain the problem are having I've attached some PDFs and I snipped an image out of one of them.

then seeing as how you have two of them which one is the problem?

 

 

 

Omega 711 keyless confusion.JPG

Omega 711_complet_4190.pdf 838.64 kB · 0 downloads 399_Omega 711 NewLR.pdf 2.98 MB · 0 downloads

So the fitting should be pretty loose then. That's good to know. 
However, I can't really find anything else of importance in this technical sheet which could potentially explain my issue. 

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

okay I'm confused what's the problem?

 

Well, that is what I am trying to figure out. I was thinking that there maybe was someone that had more experience than me with this specific movement since I am unable to figure out the issue. 
When I turn the crown to set the time, the centre wheel cannon pinion pops off the post after a while like shown in the two attached images. The technical sheet tells me how the parts work and are assembled but they don't specify specific problems or make it obvious what the problem could possibly be. I do however understand that it's hard to determine a problem when it's not you working on the watch and so on. It was perhaps a long shot but I was hoping that someone had much more experience than me with this movement and could perhaps help me. 

I do really appreciate your help so far though(: It certainly means alot.

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Hi the point is that when you turn the crown the wheel doesn't rotate round the post but climbs up it with continued winding (yes). does it do this with out or with the hour wheel fitted or both. You say you tried the dial washer, have you tried a little lubrication on the post. Is the post polished or under the scope a rough surface, is the post moving (a little loose) because when turning its finding something to drive against that causing it to lift. 

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3 hours ago, BrehmerR said:

but I was hoping that someone had much more experience than me with this movement and could perhaps help me. 

one of the problems in watch repair is there are literally hundreds of thousands of different movements out there. Even a company like Omega has a lot of different movements. this means the problem of finding a specialist or people out of work on the similar watch to you dramatically drops to practically nothing. With the exception of certain really popular like Rolex had a limited quantity of calipers finding someone that understands a Rolex is easier even if you went to a Swatch group service center this is considered vintage did send it to Switzerland as they don't service vintage in their service centers

oh then there's some other minor little problems like this

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_711

as we can see it was made in the mid-60s and it has the complication of being Omega's thinnest caliber ever made although conceivably they've made thinner by now but that's going to be a complication. That's why they did things differently.

3 hours ago, BrehmerR said:

When I turn the crown to set the time, the centre wheel cannon pinion pops off the post after a while like shown in the two attached images. The technical sheet tells me how the parts work and are assembled but they don't specify specific problems or make it obvious what the problem could possibly be.

here's the problem with technical sheets for the most part they don't exist. That's because watch companies think that people working on their watches know what they're doing and they don't need the tech sheet. It's why tech sheets other than relatively modern don't specify a lubrication and all kinds of things because you're not supposed to need to note how to do that as you should already know. There's also a complication of companies like Omega having separate documents that cover things like lubrication which typically aren't mentioned in the documents so you know if there's supplemental documents or not

now what becomes interesting with this watch made in the 60s is if you look at the technical document from cousins it is the hell kind of the service manual I guess but it doesn't actually cover servicing the watch it references another document for thing is of concern at them I guess everything else you don't actually need the technical as you should know what you're doing. Like for instance?

Usually at the beginning of discussions like this all ask questions like what was the watch doing before you serviced it? In other words did it have a problem that you were aware of before

okay so we have evolution of Omega documentation and extreme paranoia for reasons that we don't understand. Notice I snipped out something from the Omega cousins parts list and notice that each corner tells us who downloaded it and a reference to another document which is interesting that all these years later Omega has a separate document specific for your watch I wonder why?

ell that's because the first document socks and they needed a revision. The problem with the revision is that every single page would be watermarked with where it came from and anyone that has access to Swatch group documentation would never post this out in the wild and risk losing their source of where they get Swatch group information. The going to have to read between the lines of what I'm saying here for that

so suppose we had the documents that were not supposed to have what would we learn? Well we might ask questions like did you put the wheels incorrectly in the image that's attached? Then there's the problem of the two  cannon pinions. There is the little one did you disassemble that and lubricated it? But as far as the one that you're having a problem with there's no indication in the nonexistent technical piece of literature of that being a problem and how to deal with it. Also because if Omega was having a problem with the dead just replace everything in seeing as how you replaced it new still having a problem then that's not the problem?

Wasn't that all unhelpful in a way? Between the 60s and now is it possible that anybody else's service the watch and not understanding the center part did they modify anything? My interpretation is that the center cannon pinion she literally just drop in place because the other one is where the friction is.

out of curiosity how did you lubricate all the parts on the dial side. Plus which lubricants did you use.

So basically the mystery document consists of not the problem you're having but they have considerable concern about the other one how to remove it how to put it back on and they're really specific on how that has to be done but that probably isn't your problem possibly I'm thinking that may be somebody was confused and screwed up the center one somehow because it basically should just drop in place

 

 

 

Omega documentation problems of.JPG

Omega setting wheels placement of.JPG

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the problems in watch repair is there are literally hundreds of thousands of different movements out there. Even a company like Omega has a lot of different movements. this means the problem of finding a specialist or people out of work on the similar watch to you dramatically drops to practically nothing. With the exception of certain really popular like Rolex had a limited quantity of calipers finding someone that understands a Rolex is easier even if you went to a Swatch group service center this is considered vintage did send it to Switzerland as they don't service vintage in their service centers

oh then there's some other minor little problems like this

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_711

as we can see it was made in the mid-60s and it has the complication of being Omega's thinnest caliber ever made although conceivably they've made thinner by now but that's going to be a complication. That's why they did things differently.

here's the problem with technical sheets for the most part they don't exist. That's because watch companies think that people working on their watches know what they're doing and they don't need the tech sheet. It's why tech sheets other than relatively modern don't specify a lubrication and all kinds of things because you're not supposed to need to note how to do that as you should already know. There's also a complication of companies like Omega having separate documents that cover things like lubrication which typically aren't mentioned in the documents so you know if there's supplemental documents or not

now what becomes interesting with this watch made in the 60s is if you look at the technical document from cousins it is the hell kind of the service manual I guess but it doesn't actually cover servicing the watch it references another document for thing is of concern at them I guess everything else you don't actually need the technical as you should know what you're doing. Like for instance?

Usually at the beginning of discussions like this all ask questions like what was the watch doing before you serviced it? In other words did it have a problem that you were aware of before

okay so we have evolution of Omega documentation and extreme paranoia for reasons that we don't understand. Notice I snipped out something from the Omega cousins parts list and notice that each corner tells us who downloaded it and a reference to another document which is interesting that all these years later Omega has a separate document specific for your watch I wonder why?

ell that's because the first document socks and they needed a revision. The problem with the revision is that every single page would be watermarked with where it came from and anyone that has access to Swatch group documentation would never post this out in the wild and risk losing their source of where they get Swatch group information. The going to have to read between the lines of what I'm saying here for that

so suppose we had the documents that were not supposed to have what would we learn? Well we might ask questions like did you put the wheels incorrectly in the image that's attached? Then there's the problem of the two  cannon pinions. There is the little one did you disassemble that and lubricated it? But as far as the one that you're having a problem with there's no indication in the nonexistent technical piece of literature of that being a problem and how to deal with it. Also because if Omega was having a problem with the dead just replace everything in seeing as how you replaced it new still having a problem then that's not the problem?

Wasn't that all unhelpful in a way? Between the 60s and now is it possible that anybody else's service the watch and not understanding the center part did they modify anything? My interpretation is that the center cannon pinion she literally just drop in place because the other one is where the friction is.

out of curiosity how did you lubricate all the parts on the dial side. Plus which lubricants did you use.

So basically the mystery document consists of not the problem you're having but they have considerable concern about the other one how to remove it how to put it back on and they're really specific on how that has to be done but that probably isn't your problem possibly I'm thinking that may be somebody was confused and screwed up the center one somehow because it basically should just drop in place

 

 

 

Omega documentation problems of.JPG

Omega setting wheels placement of.JPG

I used DX for the keyless works and 9104 for all pivots and the stem. I think I will have to continue working on this movement to try to figure it out...

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4 hours ago, BrehmerR said:

used DX for the keyless works and 9104 for all pivots and the stem. I think I will have to continue working on this movement to try to figure it out..

I think 9104 is probably a little heavy to be using on all of the pivots?

Then I carefully snipped out some images for you I already gave you one avoiding the watermarks on the corner of the page which is why one doesn't have the text to text exactly overlaps the watermark and while I can remove that it's a real pain so I'm not giving you the text in one of the images. You can see they are lubrication specifications oh wait no you can't that's because you need another working instruction. As I pointed out you don't get a clear-cut this is how you service this watch this is the problems you have with this watch you have to look a whole bunch of documentation to get the picture and they don't actually tell you what the problems are

so for instance you're missing working instruction number 80 which is the epilam the entire watch yes everything so that the thin HP oil doesn't spread all over the place as a guess and yes it's really expensive apparently Swatch group at least the service center goes through quite a bit of it. Then I did ask no they don't keep it separate from the cleaning fluids so we can't go and steal it out of the dumpster wherever it goes it's mixed in with the cleaning fluids and set off to who knows where.

Also you need the lubrication guide to understand what the symbols are I'm going to attach the version from cousins.

Then even in the images notice they don't show you how to lubricate the keyless works because all this documents concerned about is the weird parts in the middle

and I think I did ask you if you remove the second cannon pinion I'm going to assume you did. removing it is less complicated than assembly because assembly it does have to be down tight you definitely want to support the other side or you risk bending the plates at least that would be my interpretation of all of this.

just a minor little confusion I attach three images and they're not actually in the proper order but should be easy enough to figure out how you're supposed to put it back together and what the order supposed to be.

 

 

Omega 711 assembly page 3.JPG

Omega 711 assembly part two.JPG

Omega 711 assembly lubrication.JPG

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins.pdf

Edited by JohnR725
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10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I think 9104 is probably a little heavy to be using on all of the pivots?

Then I carefully snipped out some images for you I already gave you one avoiding the watermarks on the corner of the page which is why one doesn't have the text to text exactly overlaps the watermark and while I can remove that it's a real pain so I'm not giving you the text in one of the images. You can see they are lubrication specifications oh wait no you can't that's because you need another working instruction. As I pointed out you don't get a clear-cut this is how you service this watch this is the problems you have with this watch you have to look a whole bunch of documentation to get the picture and they don't actually tell you what the problems are

so for instance you're missing working instruction number 80 which is the epilam the entire watch yes everything so that the thin HP oil doesn't spread all over the place as a guess and yes it's really expensive apparently Swatch group at least the service center goes through quite a bit of it. Then I did ask no they don't keep it separate from the cleaning fluids so we can't go and steal it out of the dumpster wherever it goes it's mixed in with the cleaning fluids and set off to who knows where.

Also you need the lubrication guide to understand what the symbols are I'm going to attach the version from cousins.

Then even in the images notice they don't show you how to lubricate the keyless works because all this documents concerned about is the weird parts in the middle

and I think I did ask you if you remove the second cannon pinion I'm going to assume you did. removing it is less complicated than assembly because assembly it does have to be down tight you definitely want to support the other side or you risk bending the plates at least that would be my interpretation of all of this.

just a minor little confusion I attach three images and they're not actually in the proper order but should be easy enough to figure out how you're supposed to put it back together and what the order supposed to be.

 

 

Omega 711 assembly page 3.JPG

Omega 711 assembly part two.JPG

Omega 711 assembly lubrication.JPG

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins.pdf 1.28 MB · 2 downloads

These pictures show exactly how I took it apart and reassembled it multiple times but as you point out, it doesn't show what the problem actually is. I did read a little about how to take the centre wheel pinion off since I was a little unsure in the beginning. 

You say that the 9104 perhaps is a little heavy for all the pivots. I certainly trust your knowledge greater than mine but that couldn't explain this problem, right?

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4 minutes ago, BrehmerR said:

You say that the 9104 perhaps is a little heavy for all the pivots. I certainly trust your knowledge greater than mine but that couldn't explain this problem, right?

it have to look at the lubrication guide that I think I attached up aboveusually on the balance pivots most people not to me like 9010. Then a lot of times they might have something in between that's a little bit heavier and then finally to the HP oil for like the center post.

Know your problem is kind of a bit of a mystery I doubt oil would be the issue. There is the reference to lubricate how did they word that ? So all the posts have lubricate generously not sure quite what that means and I think that's the symbol less where you have to look in the lubrication chart I'm pretty sure all the posts are HP oil. Then the little cannon pinion of the offset one use some form of Greece depending upon which ever lubrication chart you look at it would probably be there 9501 or 9504.

The only thing I can see is if somebody before you is trying to figure out or confused and may be somehow modified the poster something or it's been because both the parts to go on the post should be very free to rotate and they shouldn't be any reason for them to go anywhere unless? I get the speculate as I can't see good enough in the picture as long as everything is nice and flat they shouldn't be in a reason for it to want to migrate in some direction but I guess if the driving wheel is at angle maybe that would push an upward

then if you put it together you put the dial on is it a problem? I think way up above there was the reference the dial washers but being as this is a really in the watch I doubt you need a dial washer so what does happen if you put the dial on Missouri problem?

hall and looking at a later lubrication chart is 9504 as the high pressure lubricant. And everything else on that side is the HP oil.then looking at the revision before the working instruction number 40 it doesn't look like anything of importance has changed over time so the one from cousins is still valid. Basically is a really light oil on the balance wheel something a little heavier in between and the HP oil on the center wheel. Provides we all can have slightly different choices and if your watches running fine and amplitude is fine I would read about it

thinking about running characteristics of the watch once this problem is fixed at eight years at the looked really really carefully and perhaps just take a long break sometimes things look different after a long break

 

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