Minute wheel question

[Rustinbox]

Good day! I would appreciate your advice on how to fix minute wheel. 
 

when I opened the watch these two parts were apart 

I am right thinking that they must be connected with some sort of pin? I didn’t find any other loose parts inside, so was wondering.

here as I think it should go

Thank you for advice! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Rustinbox said:

Good day! I would appreciate your advice on how to fix minute wheel. 
 

when I opened the watch these two parts were apart 

I am right thinking that they must be connected with some sort of pin? I didn’t find any other loose parts inside, so was wondering.

here as I think it should go

Thank you for advice! 

The two pieces you have would have been machine pressed originally. The meshing  between the minute wheel and intermediate wheel seems quite poor. Is there no post for the minute wheel to sit on.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[watchweasol]

Hi  What make and caliber is the watch,  Yes both parts would have been together,  to put it back together will probably need a staking set to close the rivit. 

48 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

o post for the minute wheel to sit on.

Unusual for it to be running free it has a hollow center where it sits on its pivot on the main plate.  Find the make and caliber and look ok Ranfft's web site for details also we may be able to find the tech/parts sheet with the details.        cheers.

[Rustinbox]

Thank you guys! This is Orient cal 1942 which is based on Seiko 76XX cal, thought it has full bridge balance and a few other minor modifications. there is no pivot on the main plate. I assume that some pin or pivot was inside and it was supposed to just sit freely? 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

intermediate wheel seems quite poor

I didn’t place it properly as there is no pivot or something to sit in the whole. When sits properly meshing is good. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Rustinbox said:

Thank you guys! This is Orient cal 1942 which is based on Seiko 76XX cal, thought it has full bridge balance and a few other minor modifications. there is no pivot on the main plate. I assume that some pin or pivot was inside and it was supposed to just sit freely? 

I didn’t place it properly as there is no pivot or something to sit in the whole. When sits properly meshing is good. 

Ah ok yes looking at the minute wheel rear side its possible to make out the arbor for the hole, the mainplate photo now indicates the design. Not great  imo with little integration. Curious why the small section is not solid and has a hole through it. Not quite sure how you will connect the two parts.

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ah ok yes looking at the minute wheel rear side its possible to make out the arbor for the hole, the mainplate photo now indicates the design. Not great  imo with little integration. Curious why the small section is not solid and has a hole through it. Not quite sure how you will connect the two parts.

This may not even be the correct part causing some confusion here. Lets have a look at the technical sheet to see what is going on

[Rustinbox]

56 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This may not even be the correct part causing some confusion here. Lets have a look at the technical sheet to see what is going on

Thank you. Technical sheet for Orient 1942 is nowhere to be found unfortunately. And more strange I could not find Seiko 76xx manual to compare at least, if it has the same wheel. 
 

my feeling that two pieces come together, and small part of smaller cog protruding on other side of the wheel, and it was all connected with small pin (nail type) so it can hold it together and be sitter in the whole. Hope my explanation makes sense :))) so I need to find another one or try with a pin and staking set (which I don’t have anyway)

[watchweasol]

Hi  Somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind I seem to remember our Seiko expert jdm mentioning some of these watches (orient) were only for the japanese market, I may be wrong and maybe jdm will respond.  I had a look for the techsheets but there are none at all around for the 76XX series so far.   For the wheel to rotate properly it needs a bearing point, and having no decernable pivot I find odd to say the least.

[Rustinbox]

11 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  Somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind I seem to remember our Seiko expert jdm mentioning some of these watches (orient) were only for the japanese market, I may be wrong and maybe jdm will respond.  I had a look for the techsheets but there are none at all around for the 76XX series so far.   For the wheel to rotate properly it needs a bearing point, and having no decernable pivot I find odd to say the least.

Thank you! I am going to search for cal. 1942 , they come from time to time. Not sure if a minute wheel from seiko 76 will be exact match. Tagging @jdm in case they have any advice to share. Thank you. 

[Rustinbox]

I found a donor. The minute wheel indeed just pressed and there is no shaft inside. Please have a look at photo. It means that i can’t fix original as it must be hard pressed? Or staking set may help? Not that I have one, but do my understanding. 

Though now I found another problem, there is a date wheel (?) and it has interesting mechanism. All pieces came apart when I removed the screw, and now I am trying to understand how it works. I wonder if someone has photo of similar parts? Please see attached photos. Last one is as it should look when assembled. 
 

any good advice? 
 

thank you!

[Rustinbox]

No luck? Anyone?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Rustinbox said:

No luck? Anyone?

 

1 hour ago, Rustinbox said:

No luck? Anyone?

Someone may respond soon, there aren't too many seiko experts here. 

On 11/19/2022 at 9:16 AM, Rustinbox said:

I found a donor. The minute wheel indeed just pressed and there is no shaft inside. Please have a look at photo. It means that i can’t fix original as it must be hard pressed? Or staking set may help? Not that I have one, but do my understanding. 

Though now I found another problem, there is a date wheel (?) and it has interesting mechanism. All pieces came apart when I removed the screw, and now I am trying to understand how it works. I wonder if someone has photo of similar parts? Please see attached photos. Last one is as it should look when assembled. 
 

any good advice? 
 

thank you!

What is it that you are not understanding Rustin ? Do you have the date ring ? I see this is the donor movement not your original, the date advance mech is different. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Rustinbox]

21 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Someone may respond soon, there aren't too many seiko experts here. 

What is it that you are not understanding Rustin ? Do you have the date ring ? I see this is the donor movement not your original, the date advance mech is different. 

At the second photo, there is a wheel with sort of a thin spring. But it is not in its original state. I was not sure how spring should be attached to the main wheel.

 

On third photo the same wheel with a plate on top. So this whole construction consists of the following parts: main wheel, small lever type thingy, spring, top plate, screw. My question was whether anyone has photo of the same wheel with all things attached properly or not. Or any schematic that expalains how to connect. 
 

I connect per it all as I thought it should be, but I don’t see how the spring works. It looks like I connected it wrongly. 

 

 

And yes, I didn’t figure out how original date wheel worked, but it didn’t have spring inside. Or it was lost, and not there when I opened the movement. I don’t have tech sheet so it is a guess work for me now. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Rustinbox said:

At the second photo, there is a wheel with sort of a thin spring. But it is not in its original state. I was not sure how spring should be attached to the main wheel.

 

On third photo the same wheel with a plate on top. So this whole construction consists of the following parts: main wheel, small lever type thingy, spring, top plate, screw. My question was whether anyone has photo of the same wheel with all things attached properly or not. Or any schematic that expalains how to connect. 
 

I connect per it all as I thought it should be, but I don’t see how the spring works. It looks like I connected it wrongly. 

1 hour ago, Rustinbox said:

At the second photo, there is a wheel with sort of a thin spring. But it is not in its original state. I was not sure how spring should be attached to the main wheel.

 

On third photo the same wheel with a plate on top. So this whole construction consists of the following parts: main wheel, small lever type thingy, spring, top plate, screw. My question was whether anyone has photo of the same wheel with all things attached properly or not. Or any schematic that expalains how to connect. 
 

I connect per it all as I thought it should be, but I don’t see how the spring works. It looks like I connected it wrongly. 

 

 

And yes, I didn’t figure out how original date wheel worked, but it didn’t have spring inside. Or it was lost, and not there when I opened the movement. I don’t have tech sheet so it is a guess work for me now. 

Hi Rustin. I cant help you so far as knowing much about seiko designs and as WW says there doesn't not seem to be any tech sheets. Until someone chimes in that knows this specific movement i can only suggest ideas. You only have a few parts here so shouldn't be too difficult, but based on the assumption that you do have all that are required. My usual approach when i have something like this is to determine each part's physical function and how the parts interact with each other.  Each part will have a specific roll, whether that is to push, pull, or rotate something else to reach an end goal function. There are only so many orientations a part can have, some will make it fit and some wont, some will bring about its roll and some wont. Trial and error can work but depending on the amount of collective combinations there are will effect how long it will take to try all of them. But that wont teach you anything nor will it instill in your memory how you did it should you need to do it again. Figure out logically each part's function one at a time working from the base function end. Some parts will be obvious, sometimes you have to forward think a bit like chess, a few steps ahead. You will get there in the end. Hopefully you have all the correct parts, take nothing for granted in watch repair. Manufacturers can have some unusual design features.

And yes, I didn’t figure out how original date wheel worked, but it didn’t have spring inside. Or it was lost, and not there when I opened the movement. I don’t have tech sheet so it is a guess work for me now. 

 

1 hour ago, Rustinbox said:

At the second photo, there is a wheel with sort of a thin spring. But it is not in its original state. I was not sure how spring should be attached to the main wheel.

 

On third photo the same wheel with a plate on top. So this whole construction consists of the following parts: main wheel, small lever type thingy, spring, top plate, screw. My question was whether anyone has photo of the same wheel with all things attached properly or not. Or any schematic that expalains how to connect. 
 

I connect per it all as I thought it should be, but I don’t see how the spring works. It looks like I connected it wrongly. 

 

 

And yes, I didn’t figure out how original date wheel worked, but it didn’t have spring inside. Or it was lost, and not there when I opened the movement. I don’t have tech sheet so it is a guess work for me now. 

Hi rustin. Ive left you a message on your previous post. Somehow i intergrated it into youc post its just above here somewhere. Dont ask me how i just did

Edited November 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Rustinbox]

Thank you, Neverenough! Yes, I am trying to play with the part and see how it may work. I am a little afraid of breaking the spring. It is very soft and thin. But I will keep trying. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

35 minutes ago, Rustinbox said:

Thank you, Neverenough! Yes, I am trying to play with the part and see how it may work. I am a little afraid of breaking the spring. It is very soft and thin. But I will keep trying. 

I know how that is, in time gentle handling becomes second nature. Watch the little buggers as they can fly far and wide. Some folk work inside a transparent bag to prevent that, i tried it once and found it very awkward. I wish i could give you more help but my experience is mostly held in vintage swiss. Jdm knows seiko but hes not been here for a while. Also Gbyleveldt is our Seiko sensei, nice guy and funny, make him laugh and he might help you out.  please dont make me spell his name again though . 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Rustinbox]

21 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I know how that is, in time gentle handling becomes second nature. Watch the little buggers as they can fly far and wide. Some folk work inside a transparent bag to prevent that, i tried it once and found it very awkward. I wish i could give you more help but my experience is mostly held in vintage swiss. Jdm knows seiko but hes not been here for a while. Also Gbyleveldt is our Seiko sensei, nice guy and funny, make him laugh and he might help you out.  please dont make me spell his name again though . 

Thank you! I learnt my way to dealing with small springs from jewels. And I also tried plastic container from food, but it didn’t work with me   I just go slowly and use wooden stick to help a little. 
 

but this spring is a different animal. The way how it is attached to the small metal thingy is not clear. I am sure if it break from it I won’t be able to attach it again. 
 

I am waiting for the help of @jdm or @gbyleveldt and other masters in case they have seen this mechanism in the past  

[gbyleveldt]

3 hours ago, Rustinbox said:

I am waiting for the help of @jdm or @gbyleveldt and other masters in case they have seen this mechanism in the past  

Ouch! Man I've never seen that movement in my life before. I'd agree something very strange is going on there. You say you have a donor movement - any clues to be found there?

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

Ouch! Man I've never seen that movement in my life before. I'd agree something very strange is going on there. You say you have a donor movement - any clues to be found there?

Eyup Gert hope you're well. Rustin seems to think its based on Seiko 76xx movement, maybe not.

[Rustinbox]

18 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Ouch! Man I've never seen that movement in my life before. I'd agree something very strange is going on there. You say you have a donor movement - any clues to be found there?

Initial reason to find a donor was for a minute wheel. It was broken and actually I was not sure about its construction. The donor watch confirmed the construction- you can see some photos at the beginning of the thread. But because of donor movement I discovered that a date wheel in original watch was missing some parts or they started using different construction, because in donor watch there was a spring. I could not see original setup under the top cover of the date wheel, because as soon as I removed the screw, spring has moved and I could not fullly comprehend  how it was set beneath the top plate. :))) hope I explained myself a bit clearer  

18 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup Gert hope you're well. Rustin seems to think its based on Seiko 76xx movement, maybe not.

I think many other parts are based on 76XX movement, but date wheel is not as in this Orient movement there is a separate quickset button while seiko uses crown for that.