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Hi everyone.

I have a watch with a rather badly bent balance spring. While this was a cheap watch for practice it's actually quite a nice movement so I would like to get it running if possible. What are my options? 

A complete balance assembly isn't available anywhere and a NOS movement I found is 20x the price and would also feel a little bit like cheating. So I was wondering whether replacing the balance spring with one from a similar movement is something that's possible, given matching BPH and balance wheel size. Is this an idea that could be worth trying or is this in no way similar to eg. a mainspring and pretty much unique for each movement.

 

I did attempt to get the spring back in shape but it was bent both horizontally and vertically. This was my first attempt at manipulating a hairspring and while I improved it a little bit at first I was not able to fix the horizontal alignment and it's now in a much worse state after that last picture.

IMG_2166.thumb.jpeg.95040b3d4670165bb7e74ddbfb202328.jpegIMG_2168.thumb.jpeg.e415e5fad750d6462f1440958e3f2df4.jpeg

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Hi and welcome to the forum.  as I see it you have several options, a continue and practise on the one you have   b a balance complete c look for a doner watch on ebay.  If you are lucky you will find on with a good balance or second best with a good balance spring.  fitting random springs does not work and for a beginner is a no go.  What is the make and caliber of the watch you have , If you are really lucky a member may have one and is able to help.    Look under the balance wheel for the logo and number on on the plates can be on either.

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The movement is a marvin cal. 150, which I couldn't find on ranfft, what I had in mind as a replacement was an eta 2412 which are easy to obtain even if it didn't work out. Sounds like I'll have to wait for a part to show up however. Either way I'll definitely continue trying to get this spring back into shape when I have time for another afternoon of patience.

Out of curiosity. So the rate and size of the balance wheel doesn't determine enough properties of the spring for it to require a similar diameter or is it the size that the collet should be and the location of the stud that would cause problems?

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1 hour ago, djordan said:

The movement is a marvin cal. 150, which I couldn't find on ranfft, what I had in mind as a replacement was an eta 2412 which are easy to obtain even if it didn't work out. Sounds like I'll have to wait for a part to show up however. Either way I'll definitely continue trying to get this spring back into shape when I have time for another afternoon of patience.

Out of curiosity. So the rate and size of the balance wheel doesn't determine enough properties of the spring for it to require a similar diameter or is it the size that the collet should be and the location of the stud that would cause problems?

Eyup matey. The hs needs to be matched to the balance wheel, size and weight of the balance wheel are just a couple of the factors involved to determine a hs of the correct torque Collet size also, yes you could repin the hs to the old collet, very tricky for a beginner. Hs material also to match the original hs, once finding an appropriate hs it would want vibrating to the correct bph and then timed to suit and adjusted to the balance wheel. Most of this is related to a new raw hs uncolleted if you could get one. The absolute best and cheapest way as WW mentioned would be to find a donor movement of the same make and calibre with a good balance assembly or at the very least a half decent hs. 

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Thanks for the information, so swapping parts of the balance assembly is only useful if a pivot is broken and you don't have to skill or tools to fix the balance staff? I figured there was a reason why fixing the spring or replacing the balance entirely is what's usually done. Attempting to detach the collet from the spring sounds like a great way to end up with even more practice springs 😀.

Both the cal.160 and cal.140 don't look similar to me except for the name on some of the parts, this movement has a shockspring for one. Part of the reason why this idea came to mind is that I'm wondering if this is perhaps just a special version of a more common movement.

IMG_2170.thumb.jpeg.034d2ab716703fff938d863a257498aa.jpegIMG_2171.thumb.jpeg.3183e59a2da93c200e7487b4cbade69b.jpeg

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14 minutes ago, djordan said:

Attempting to detach the collet from the spring sounds like a great way to end up with even more practice springs 😀.

Also good for reducing you head follicle count. 😄

17 minutes ago, djordan said:

Thanks for the information, so swapping parts of the balance assembly is only useful if a pivot is broken and you don't have to skill or tools to fix the balance staff? I figured there was a reason why fixing the spring or replacing the balance entirely is what's usually done. Attempting to detach the collet from the spring sounds like a great way to end up with even more practice springs 😀.

Both the cal.160 and cal.140 don't look similar to me except for the name on some of the parts, this movement has a shockspring for one. Part of the reason why this idea came to mind is that I'm wondering if this is perhaps just a special version of a more common movement.

IMG_2170.thumb.jpeg.034d2ab716703fff938d863a257498aa.jpegIMG_2171.thumb.jpeg.3183e59a2da93c200e7487b4cbade69b.jpeg

I found a few working and non working donors on ebay. Between 40 and 80 notes.

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Also good for reducing you head follicle count. 😄

I found a few working and non working donors on ebay. Between 40 and 80 notes.

As a minimum a colleted matching h/s will serve you. Repinning the stud if necessary is not so much of a task as doing the collet.

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On 10/25/2022 at 4:16 AM, djordan said:

I did attempt to get the spring back in shape but it was bent both horizontally and vertically. This was my first attempt at manipulating a hairspring and while I improved it a little bit at first I was not able to fix the horizontal alignment and it's now in a much worse state after that last picture.

How are you manipulating the hairspring? It will be easier if you remove the hairspring+collet from the balance wheel for hairspring manipulation.

I also checked the Jules Borel, and the Marvin 150 does not appear to share a balance wheel (with hairspring) with any other movements.

79B03AC3-05E7-4C47-AFAD-EA8D02F99F03.jpeg

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On 10/25/2022 at 6:32 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Also good for reducing you head follicle count. 😄

I found a few working and non working donors on ebay. Between 40 and 80 notes.

As a minimum a colleted matching h/s will serve you. Repinning the stud if necessary is not so much of a task as doing the collet.

Yeah, there are some around but this isn't to wear or something so I would rather keep that money in the tools budget for now.

On 10/27/2022 at 5:14 AM, ifibrin said:

How are you manipulating the hairspring? It will be easier if you remove the hairspring+collet from the balance wheel for hairspring manipulation.

I also checked the Jules Borel, and the Marvin 150 does not appear to share a balance wheel (with hairspring) with any other movements.

79B03AC3-05E7-4C47-AFAD-EA8D02F99F03.jpeg

Initially I started with the balance wheel on some rodico, but once I tried to get flatten it I did separate the spring from the blaance (was easier than I expected). I also found a reference to 721/2125 while looking around, is that what you would use to identify whether the balance assembly is be similar enough to be interchangeable?

 

Short update on the spring itself, after some more time it's still not entirely flat and and in shape yet but when reassembled the balance at least wants to run now. I think a proper pair of no. 6 or 7 tweezers might get me there, I'm currently using a single tweaser in combination with an oiler which doesn't seem ideal for the flattening operation.

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5 hours ago, djordan said:

I also found a reference to 721/2125 while looking around, is that what you would use to identify whether the balance assembly is be similar enough to be interchangeable

The numbers are only useful in conjunction with the movement number: they do not correspond to only one kind of specific part from a specific movement.

The database picture I showed you shows that there is no other movement that shares a balance wheel or hairspring with your movement.

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10 hours ago, djordan said:

I also found a reference to 721/2125 while looking around, is that what you would use to identify whether the balance assembly is be similar enough to be interchangeable?

the way the number breaks down is 721 refers to a balance wheel. they use numbers instead of names because they usually put these on the package the package doesn't have a lot of room to spell out balance complete so they just typically use numbers. So 721 says that the balance wheel and the second number that tells you which balance wheel.

if you go to the bestfit website you can enter the number it to get a cross reference to see what cross references to and it only cost references to MAR 150. Which is exactly what it says up above there is no other cross reference.

 

On 10/25/2022 at 9:15 AM, djordan said:

Thanks for the information, so swapping parts of the balance assembly is only useful if a pivot is broken and you don't have to skill or tools to fix the balance staff? I figured there was a reason why fixing the spring or replacing the balance entirely is what's usually done. Attempting to detach the collet from the spring sounds like a great way to end up with even more practice springs

there are certain unfortunate realities in watch repair. first re-asking the same question over and over slightly worded differently unfortunately is not going to change the outcome for you.

I could explain a whole bunch of paragraphs it excruciating detail but the simplistic is a balance wheel and its flat hairspring always go together. The balance staff can be replaced the roller table could be replaced but they hairspring that came with the balance wheel has to stay with balance wheel.

For instance suppose you are in the factory you grab two identical watches off the assembly line and you swap the hairspring you will have timing issues. How much of an issue depends upon how precise everything was manufactured.

So unfortunately you cannot find a hairspring visually looks the same and have it work because there's some other complications that will happen worst-case you have a watch that wouldn't even run at all to it would definitely have running issues and of course timing issues

fortunately we have eBay. You can set up a active search for the watch and sooner or later if you're lucky one will show up. And yes we all understand we've all had a bad hairspring day or two.

then in the old days I'm attaching and advertisements they used to be people that would help you out and as you can see that was quite a bargain price. I don't even think that would cover the shipping costs today. In a case the used to be people who could make a new hairspring for you as far as I know they no longer exist.

Your best thing is to find another watch and steal the balance complete.

hairspring vibrating service a thing of the past.JPG

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  • 8 months later...

I forgot to reply, thanks for the detailed explanation.

On 10/31/2022 at 11:05 AM, JohnR725 said:

For instance suppose you are in the factory you grab two identical watches off the assembly line and you swap the hairspring you will have timing issues. How much of an issue depends upon how precise everything was manufactured.

This totally didn't get through to me before you posted this. I just assumed that the deviations in the parts would be small enough to correct with the adjustment pin. It makes sense tough, adjusting the balance is probably easier.

On 10/31/2022 at 11:05 AM, JohnR725 said:

then in the old days I'm attaching and advertisements they used to be people that would help you out and as you can see that was quite a bargain price. I don't even think that would cover the shipping costs today. In a case the used to be people who could make a new hairspring for you as far as I know they no longer exist.

That's just amazing!

 

In the meantime I did find a replacement, so it's ticking along nicely now.

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4 minutes ago, djordan said:

This totally didn't get through to me before you posted this. I just assumed that the deviations in the parts would be small enough to correct with the adjustment pin. It makes sense tough, adjusting the balance is probably easier.

a classic problem that everybody starting watch repair has and occasionally other times hairsprings that magically get basically destroyed. Then for anyone new to watch repair the assumption is I would just replace the hairspring it's a replaceable component?

the balance wheel in a watch and its hairspring have to be matched to an extreme close tolerance or you're not going to keep time at all even if you try to move the regulator. If you look at a modern parts list you will see balance complete. This is because they hairspring is vibrated to that exact balance wheel they come as a unit of balance complete.

then adjusting your balance wheel to match the hairspring let's look at your balance wheel it has no timing screws. This means the only thing he can do would be to lighten the balance wheel. But their other specifications that will affect things. For instance the mainspring supplies power to run the watch. When the balance wheel is engaged with the escapement the mainspring gives the balance wheel spin. But the hairsprings energy is used to pull the balance wheel back specifically that energy is used to unlock the escapement. so this means there might be a possibility of getting a new hairspring and dramatically lightning the balance wheel to match but then ending up with a wrong combination that cannot unlock the escapement yes there is additional specifications to balance wheels beyond timing.

now can you match up balance wheel to a hairspring yes it was done at one time. Over coil hairsprings need to be made to very exacting specifications for timekeeping purposes so traditionally these are premade. The balance wheel depending upon the quality will have the mean time screws already installed possibly some other screws installed and then the final timing screws to adjust the balance wheel to the hairspring. So for some watch companies you could purchase the hairspring separate. But this only works with balance wheels that have timing screws and of course you have to have the timing screws.

instance let's look at Waltham and start of the catalog they have assortments here's an assortment of poising screws or basically the screws you would need to bring your balance wheel in time if you swap the hairspring

image.png.69cb0ae313a85cba822b1f949dce89ec.png

now we get to hairsprings notice the reference to strength? That's back to my reference to hairspring supplying energy to unlock the escapement. Notice the balance wheels with brass screws will be lighter than the weight in the gold screws and the quantity screws change the weight. Even here where the hairsprings were available separately you still have to have a hairspring of the right specifications for the balance wheel where it isn't going to work right then you get the play with the screws and the other assortment to try to get the thing the match

image.png.81808c5f248b91c4e95b2c3c872981de.png

then there's always exceptions to the rule sort of. Ideally flat hairsprings still have to meet certain characteristics. Specifically the pinning point and the regulation point have to be a very specific locations. Sometimes it was easier to pre-make them no notice in the next image flat hairsprings they are available but this is also a 1909 catalog for Waltham pocket watches. Then you do not see the word over coil you see the word Breguet which is another way of saying the exact same thing. This would be a watch that went to evolution started with flat and went to over coil.

image.thumb.png.929e3220a87e8ebd9bf272bdea5eedf7.png

now we get something interesting remember I said all flat hairsprings have to be vibrated to the balance wheel there on but these are not. So yes you can have a hairspring not attached to the balance wheel. But these hairsprings are only call it did their very wall this allows the watchmaker to match the hairspring to the balance wheel will understand that if I ever find the pictures the balance wheels.

Remember this is a really vintage pocket watch things are little bit different way back then

now we get to the problem the interesting page. No you cannot order any of these things from your local material house unless they have a time machine you can go back in time slightly more than 100 years

what makes this page interesting well there is the balance wheels without their hairsprings notice I circled two of them there is no timing screws which I said was vital if you're going to match the hairspring. Which is 100% true except in this particular case they hairspring is a really long you can adjust your hairspring to your balance wheel. In other words there giving you the ability to vibrate your hairspring to the balance wheel.

But even then the hairspring page you can see that there a lot of choices you had that the right choice for the right balance wheel and then you could match your hairspring by vibrating. Basically a trial and error procedure in the watch because you wouldn't have a hairspring vibrating tool typically

then notice on the other side of the page in case you break your collet it's available separately. This would mean that I'm not going go look form that would've also been the availability of hairspring ends because you have to pin things we put everything back together. So it's all here on one page balance wheels the timing screws notice there's a lot of them there was the assortment a lot of them here.

so yes exceptions to the rule but in your case if your hairspring is defective for a variety reasons it's a balance complete. Matching your balance wheel to your hairspring or a replacement hairspring that looks identical but does not have the proper characteristics will be a fun experiments and I wish you well on that endeavor because it's unlikely to succeed but you might succeed

 

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Interesting, so something similar would happen during manufacturing? Starting with parts that are slightly over size and tweaking both until the timing is correct. I knew balance wheels without timing screws have these type of cutouts, to make the weight distribution consistent. But perhaps it's also for reducing weight when pairing with a hairspring?

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Basically a trial and error procedure in the watch because you wouldn't have a hairspring vibrating tool typically

I came across this video a while back, is this the type of tool you're referring to?

 

 

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55 minutes ago, djordan said:

But perhaps it's also for reducing weight when pairing with a hairspring?

as far as I know the only thing that is for is for poising the balance. 

57 minutes ago, djordan said:

I came across this video a while back, is this the type of tool you're referring to?

oh and in his video he starts off with saying it's for pocket watches the tool will vibrate all hairsprings. The problem with the demonstration is he started with the balance wheel and an existing hairspring because it looks for a nice presentation. It takes a lot of time to get to the finished hairspring.

In the factories they don't use a tool like that would be way too slow they use something more like in the video below. I've actually been a factory and seen them using similar tools and it just takes a few seconds. So at about five minutes and 40 seconds you'll see the modern tool.

https://youtu.be/KJQIw8Az1Xk

now here's another video of somebody who made a tool and you'll notice that they hairspring he's using already has the stud attached other words a demonstration with an existing hairspring which makes it look impressive and fast but the tool would speed things up considerably

https://youtu.be/htckrH3ae54

if you were in a school using the conventional tool your hairspring would have to match the master balance wheel for certain quantity of time you would be using a stopwatch exactly like this video shows.

https://youtu.be/M5LEN66vxgc

now they are all excited about vibrating your own hairspring may be going in the business there is a tiny problem well several tiny problems purchasing the tool is very expensive. There are other electronic solutions I think we discussed that on the board someplace else then hairspring is reliance available in CGS sizes. So once you figure it out which CGS size you need for your balance wheel and will assume that you doing the simplest job possible. You would break out the center the spring to fit your collet. Pin the hairspring put her on your balance wheel in the truing calipers and make sure it's level and centered. Then you can go to vibrating tool and yes those videos make it look so simple but initially are going to be so extremely far off so to take a little bit of time to get to exactly where you want to be and to get the final step like the person was doing with the stopwatch it's not take even more time as I said the video that you showed he has an existing hairspring it makes it looks simple.

Then cut your hairspring typically cut at one turn beyond the vibrating point because now you have the forms a terminal curve for the regulator pins to go in then you can pin it to the stud and put it in your watch in your good to go with some minor little tweaking the of the hairspring all flat again but there is the problem still have to do a search because we've discussed this before on the group.

Those CGS hairsprings at the used to make they don't and they haven't for quite some time. The company makes hairsprings like a lot of other things made in Switzerland decided it would be better if they would make hairsprings per the specific people purchasing them the watch companies that only makes hairsprings specifications. Or you can send your balance wheels to them and they will make the hairspring for your balance wheel

so there was a nice article the British horological journal several years back of oh know there's no hairsprings left there's a few they show up on eBay is a few other sources that have a few hairsprings out there but basically not going to vibrate a hairspring as they don't exist and the tools are really expensive.

 

 

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9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

as far as I know the only thing that is for is for poising the balance. 

11 hours ago, djordan said:

That's also what I thought. Meaning swapping the spring between 2 equivalent balance wheels is possible in theory, however you end up with one pair where the spring isn't long enough and another pair that needs to be timed again.

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

now here's another video of somebody who made a tool and you'll notice that they hairspring he's using already has the stud attached other words a demonstration with an existing hairspring which makes it look impressive and fast but the tool would speed things up considerably

 

Not that I have the need for this tool, but that looks like a pretty fun electronics project to try to make yourself. 😃

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10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

so there was a nice article the British horological journal several years back of oh know there's no hairsprings left there's a few they show up on eBay is a few other sources that have a few hairsprings out there but basically not going to vibrate a hairspring as they don't exist and the tools are really expensive.

Besides material, diameter, spring strength and number of coils what other qualities are needed to order the correct hairsprings ?

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

as far as I know the only thing that is for is for poising the balance. 

oh and in his video he starts off with saying it's for pocket watches the tool will vibrate all hairsprings. The problem with the demonstration is he started with the balance wheel and an existing hairspring because it looks for a nice presentation. It takes a lot of time to get to the finished hairspring.

In the factories they don't use a tool like that would be way too slow they use something more like in the video below. I've actually been a factory and seen them using similar tools and it just takes a few seconds. So at about five minutes and 40 seconds you'll see the modern tool.

https://youtu.be/KJQIw8Az1Xk

now here's another video of somebody who made a tool and you'll notice that they hairspring he's using already has the stud attached other words a demonstration with an existing hairspring which makes it look impressive and fast but the tool would speed things up considerably

https://youtu.be/htckrH3ae54

if you were in a school using the conventional tool your hairspring would have to match the master balance wheel for certain quantity of time you would be using a stopwatch exactly like this video shows.

https://youtu.be/M5LEN66vxgc

now they are all excited about vibrating your own hairspring may be going in the business there is a tiny problem well several tiny problems purchasing the tool is very expensive. There are other electronic solutions I think we discussed that on the board someplace else then hairspring is reliance available in CGS sizes. So once you figure it out which CGS size you need for your balance wheel and will assume that you doing the simplest job possible. You would break out the center the spring to fit your collet. Pin the hairspring put her on your balance wheel in the truing calipers and make sure it's level and centered. Then you can go to vibrating tool and yes those videos make it look so simple but initially are going to be so extremely far off so to take a little bit of time to get to exactly where you want to be and to get the final step like the person was doing with the stopwatch it's not take even more time as I said the video that you showed he has an existing hairspring it makes it looks simple.

Then cut your hairspring typically cut at one turn beyond the vibrating point because now you have the forms a terminal curve for the regulator pins to go in then you can pin it to the stud and put it in your watch in your good to go with some minor little tweaking the of the hairspring all flat again but there is the problem still have to do a search because we've discussed this before on the group.

Those CGS hairsprings at the used to make they don't and they haven't for quite some time. The company makes hairsprings like a lot of other things made in Switzerland decided it would be better if they would make hairsprings per the specific people purchasing them the watch companies that only makes hairsprings specifications. Or you can send your balance wheels to them and they will make the hairspring for your balance wheel

so there was a nice article the British horological journal several years back of oh know there's no hairsprings left there's a few they show up on eBay is a few other sources that have a few hairsprings out there but basically not going to vibrate a hairspring as they don't exist and the tools are really expensive.

 

 

I just wanted to add this link John and hear your thoughts on it. 

http://www.britishprecisionsprings.co.uk/

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1 hour ago, djordan said:

but that looks like a pretty fun electronics project to try to make yourself.

 

38 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Besides material, diameter, spring strength and number of coils what other qualities are needed to order the correct hairsprings ?

 

39 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I just wanted to add this link John and hear your thoughts on it.

the last time somebody was complaining about the evil and bad message board we were on one of the things that came up would be a section which never got done by the way of permanently pinned discussions perhaps for well for instance what we're doing now we've already discussed this all of it all been discussed there is sources sort of of hairsprings beyond that one link limited quantity of sources by the way and limits its brightness there are other electronic of vibrating tools and one of the members here I don't remember how we did it but he did something for vibrating hairsprings electronically but he may have been using a witschi timing machine. Witschi timing machines have the nice feature of frequency mode where if you don't know what frequency your watches running at you go to this mode it gives to the beats per hour the Chinese machines do not do this

so this is all been discussed before all of this and I would refer you to the search engine but I just noticed something? This discussion is in the safe zone for newbies. A while back somebody complained about we were not nice to the new goodies so apparently in this section every single question no matter how whatever has to be answered on the other hand if you go to this section and go through the list of all the questions is a lot of questions with no answers oh dear? That's because the newbie it was originally whining about this seemed to think other newbies would come and help each other which obviously is not working out at all.

How it would refer to the search engine but I just did that the problem is if you look up hairsprings there's a lot of entries hairspring vibrating is better but this still too many entries. fortunately I know what I'm looking for and I just found one of the things so you think you want a vibrating tool well you can make one. Not as fancy as the one in the video up above but he wants to sell that so he's not going to give you the plans this is basically equivalent except you need the Microset timing machine. There might be a way around that?

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/hairspring-vibrating-tool.html

okay what you need is if you want to buy the Microset timing machine you need a clock timing machine typically as it will measure beats per hour here is a clock timing machines someone designed.

https://mesterhome.com/timer/index.html

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

yes we discussed this before simplistically they do not make watch hairsprings. If anyone comes along and says yes they can be used for watches make them show you how that will speed up things considerably.

that is I'm trying to find something on the message board I'm finding links and things like this one is a little on how you get started

http://www.bobinchak.com/watchmaking/2017/4/26/hairspring-week-vibrating-the-hairspring

there is a nifty link for all kinds of things the download. As you going down the list to get the war department technical thing download that everybody should have a copy of that. Then you get to the school book whole bunch of chapters notice chapter number seven it covers hairspring vibrating although it scroll down little farther just download the entire manually do need some of the other sections before you can even get the vibrating part. although I can see that that one chapter grossly overly simplifies all that.

https://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

oh and for the most part I'm not going give you a link to discussions on this group even if I find them because you should expand your knowledge by searching yourself like search for hairspring or vibrating hairspring or CGS. Which would get you a link like this

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/23068-selecting-components-to-assemble-a-balance-complete/#comment-195772

here's an important image are going to need sooner or later. This will help you figure out which CGS hairspring you need. Although some watch technical sheets did specify the CGS of your hairspring sometimes but I have no idea why they would do such a thing because where you supposed to get the hairspring but they did.

542290076_hairspringtableCGSsizesofthepast.jpg.94a781926c2ad157c6fe9120d6de78be.thumb.jpg.00c306446063839a654e32535217fcd3.jpg

oh somewhere out there somebody quoted something so I get the quote their remark it might give you a clue of my enthusiasm of hairspring vibrating

On 10/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, HectorLooi said:

Wow! If both @JohnR725 and @nickelsilver won't vibrate a hairspring, then it must be a real PITA.

so maybe you'll think hairspring vibrating is fun good for you but I really do like that quote up above.

then yes we both do know how to vibrated hairsprings.

oh some ways asking a question unique questions on the message board do they really exist obviously not aware of I heard this question before

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/24478-hairspring/#comment-201212

finally found what I'm looking for a link but if you look at the above discussions somebody points out that the link has issues.

http://www.scotchwatch.com/Hairsprings.html

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

ides material, diameter, spring strength and number of coils what other qualities are needed to order the correct hairsprings ?

it's good that these questions have been asked before and I have images. As far as the material goes it should be a material used for watch hairsprings. If you look at the British site those are not necessarily watch her spring hairsprings hairsprings have other uses like industrial uses. Then a little light reading below will answer your questions on how to figure out which hairspring you need.

image.thumb.png.9dae7f253ea637d82f517f1a013200cb.png

image.thumb.png.682522844165bfb7e74bd5de95187006.png

2 hours ago, djordan said:

That's also what I thought. Meaning swapping the spring between 2 equivalent balance wheels is possible in theory, however you end up with one pair where the spring isn't long enough and another pair that needs to be timed again.

the easiest way to find out is do the experiment see what happens.

oh and of course then there are other problems. It may have been mentioned somewhere up above but ideally hairspring should be poised. So this means of you take existing hairspring or even the ones that were sold with collets attached that would include the flat Waltham Springs. Then you vibrated them he would end up with a hairspring that's not always. I think one of the links up above actually talks about poising hairsprings. On the other hand he would end up with a running watch hopefully possibly keeping time and who cares was poised in a way. But just pointing out if you're really obsessed about things you can't actually just swap hairsprings without other consequences.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

yes we discussed this before simplistically they do not make watch hairsprings. If anyone comes along and says yes they can be used for watches make them show you how that will speed up things considerably.

Okaay, i did ring them a couple of months ago and spoke to a receptionist who put me onto one of their technical team sho was kind of helpful. Who did say they dont particularly supply to watchrepairers but can,  anything that is required from stock or custom make to requirements. But could not tell me specifically what i need for any watch i would have to work that out for myself. I now promise not to mention them again until the day i buy and try from them. 

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6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Okaay, i did ring them a couple of months ago and spoke to a receptionist who put me onto one of their technical team sho was kind of helpful. Who did say they dont particularly supply to watchrepairers but can,  anything that is required from stock or custom make to requirements. But could not tell me specifically what i need for any watch i would have to work that out for myself. I now promise not to mention them again until the day i buy and try from them. 

don't worry you're not the first to point out their existence. Then somewhere there was a reference they don't sell to I don't remember what? Then as you found they typically don't do watches. although there are some cheap is what I would interpret them to be watches that do have broadens hairsprings but whether or not they would have one to fit would be probably doubtful as I said they do industrial springs.

If you want to order custom hairspring is there was a discussion by? @Nucejoe a while back shared his experience of trying to order hairsprings from the Swiss. So somewhere on that discussion were the forms they needed to fill out the problem is they assume your watch manufacturer you have specifications for your balance wheel stuffed it typically we don't have. Although I suspect you probably could've ordered wrought CGS hairsprings if you had asked. But there was the other problem they require to quantity and basically it's expensive.

 

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