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3 hours ago, ossing said:

I'm doing a timing test and I have a question.

interesting timing machine you have?

3 hours ago, ossing said:

Is it possible to see the entry pallet jewel and exit pallet jewel lengths of the pallet fork in this mode?

I think you're going to have to clarify the question of what you're asking.

 

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15 hours ago, Kalanag said:

What does „lengths“ mean in your question?

I'm talking about the length of the pallet jewel of the pallet fork.

12 hours ago, praezis said:

One cannot tell, which of both beat noises is related to entry or exit pallet.

Frank 

I see. Thank you.:)

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

interesting timing machine you have?

I think you're going to have to clarify the question of what you're asking.

 

I wonder what problems can be identified in this timing graph and what the graph means.
For example, can I find problems with pallet fork or escape wheel?

It's hard even if I look at the manual.

15 hours ago, Kalanag said:

What does „lengths“ mean in your question?

I think you can think of it as the depth at which the escape wheel and the pallet Jewel meet.:)

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1 hour ago, ossing said:

I wonder what problems can be identified in this timing graph and what the graph means.
For example, can I find problems with pallet fork or escape wheel?

this is why we ask clarification questions to find out what the real question is so this is the real question what can you do with the oscilloscope on the witschi timing machine is it of any use at all?

Then one of the problems with the witschi manual is it only explains what the functions are it doesn't explain why they have them and of what use they are. For instance the frequency mode why would you ever need to use that? Well if you to watch that's really extremely out of timing range the machine will refuse to time it is it doesn't know what it is. This comes up typically on vintage watches were somebodies played with the hairspring and the timing screws the watches running extremely fast or extremely slow and frequency mode you can pinpoint the problem really fast. Or if you're swapping hair Springs and balance wheels you can bring things in the time really really fast but the manual doesn't tell you that because they only tell you what the machine does.

To understand the oscilloscope and I'm going to assume that you're new to all of this you need to understand what the oscilloscope is showing so here's a video that has a really idealized view of it but it does show the sounds and what the oscilloscope has

video is designed for another purpose but it works fine for what we want to use it for at about one minute and eight seconds it starts to show the lever escapement.

https://youtu.be/g5c5RK4WFV8

now the only unfortunate problem of this video is it's an absolutely idealize perfect view of the escapement and you're never going to see it look exactly like this but it does give you a clue of where the sounds come from and what it sort of looks like or at least what it's supposed to look like

then I'm assuming you actually have a witschi timing machine when you're in our oscilloscope mode the witschi machine will show you where it's thinking a locking is occurring as it needs that for the amplitude so if you're amplitude is super low the witschi and especially the Chinese machines will try to pick a signal in the middle and you'll get much higher amplitude readings but the witschi will put a line see you can see where it thinks it's triggering from and then you can see what the problem S

which he also has PDFs it have information like the one I'm attaching it also shows the oscilloscope and explains a few things. But I do kinda find out oscilloscope is more of you just have to look at it and spend time and see what things look like. Just like the time plot features really interesting for troubleshooting but that's almost never mentioned anywhere because practically no timing machine has that feature except witschi's and only the more expensive ones.

 

 

 

 

Witschi Training Course.pdf

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25 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

this is why we ask clarification questions to find out what the real question is so this is the real question what can you do with the oscilloscope on the witschi timing machine is it of any use at all?

Then one of the problems with the witschi manual is it only explains what the functions are it doesn't explain why they have them and of what use they are. For instance the frequency mode why would you ever need to use that? Well if you to watch that's really extremely out of timing range the machine will refuse to time it is it doesn't know what it is. This comes up typically on vintage watches were somebodies played with the hairspring and the timing screws the watches running extremely fast or extremely slow and frequency mode you can pinpoint the problem really fast. Or if you're swapping hair Springs and balance wheels you can bring things in the time really really fast but the manual doesn't tell you that because they only tell you what the machine does.

To understand the oscilloscope and I'm going to assume that you're new to all of this you need to understand what the oscilloscope is showing so here's a video that has a really idealized view of it but it does show the sounds and what the oscilloscope has

video is designed for another purpose but it works fine for what we want to use it for at about one minute and eight seconds it starts to show the lever escapement.

https://youtu.be/g5c5RK4WFV8

now the only unfortunate problem of this video is it's an absolutely idealize perfect view of the escapement and you're never going to see it look exactly like this but it does give you a clue of where the sounds come from and what it sort of looks like or at least what it's supposed to look like

then I'm assuming you actually have a witschi timing machine when you're in our oscilloscope mode the witschi machine will show you where it's thinking a locking is occurring as it needs that for the amplitude so if you're amplitude is super low the witschi and especially the Chinese machines will try to pick a signal in the middle and you'll get much higher amplitude readings but the witschi will put a line see you can see where it thinks it's triggering from and then you can see what the problem S

which he also has PDFs it have information like the one I'm attaching it also shows the oscilloscope and explains a few things. But I do kinda find out oscilloscope is more of you just have to look at it and spend time and see what things look like. Just like the time plot features really interesting for troubleshooting but that's almost never mentioned anywhere because practically no timing machine has that feature except witschi's and only the more expensive ones.

 

 

 

 

Witschi Training Course.pdf 4.5 MB · 0 downloads

Thank you, so much. 

Always be full of good things.:)

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On 10/19/2022 at 1:26 AM, ossing said:

Is it possible to see the entry pallet jewel and exit pallet jewel lengths of the pallet fork in this mode?

I had to think about this for a while the answer is yes and no.  for your original question the answer would be yes and no sort of depending upon where the pallet stone is will change the way the oscilloscope will lock. If one stone is again in one stone is how it got oscilloscope traces every other one should look difference. But you can't tell which is a entry and exit you would have to physically look at the escapement to see which side is the issue. So if you're looking at the oscilloscope and one trace or one whatever is different than the other one then you know there's a problem but you have to physically look to see what the problem is.

Then a course of oscilloscope is really nice for other things that the escapement might bump into or the hairspring might rub on or something. But unfortunately a lot of the stuff in the timing machine is still a experience of looking at what's good versus what looks bad and as to whether it's bad enough to be a problem.

Like for instance the sound of the roller jewel hitting the fork is supposed to be a quiet sounds but what if you look at the oscilloscope and it's a really loud sound how big of a problem is that going to be for instance? Because in real world especially with vintage watches they don't exactly match the beautiful images in the witschi instruction manual those are more of an idealized perfect modern watch

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34 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I had to think about this for a while the answer is yes and no.  for your original question the answer would be yes and no sort of depending upon where the pallet stone is will change the way the oscilloscope will lock. If one stone is again in one stone is how it got oscilloscope traces every other one should look difference. But you can't tell which is a entry and exit you would have to physically look at the escapement to see which side is the issue. So if you're looking at the oscilloscope and one trace or one whatever is different than the other one then you know there's a problem but you have to physically look to see what the problem is.

Then a course of oscilloscope is really nice for other things that the escapement might bump into or the hairspring might rub on or something. But unfortunately a lot of the stuff in the timing machine is still a experience of looking at what's good versus what looks bad and as to whether it's bad enough to be a problem.

Like for instance the sound of the roller jewel hitting the fork is supposed to be a quiet sounds but what if you look at the oscilloscope and it's a really loud sound how big of a problem is that going to be for instance? Because in real world especially with vintage watches they don't exactly match the beautiful images in the witschi instruction manual those are more of an idealized perfect modern watch

Hi John, i hope you are well fella. While on the subject of timing machines i have a quick question for you. I've asked before about timing hairsprings and its something i would still like to attempt. Also I've recently discovered where to buy raw springs from and they are quite cheap. Although a bit of a minefield as regards to which one to choose, material wise and also strength ( torque ). So some research there is needed, complicated I imagine but not rocket science. I have been reading Fried's bench practices and it does seem reasonably straight forward the actual timing of the hs. On the other hand the adjustment of the hs length and pinning etc will be a task to master over many springs. The equipment used is not easy to come by, an electric pulse counter unlikely we will ever see one for sale and even the hs vibrators with a master balance dont show up very often and are always expensive. I know there is a way to vibrate manually by hand and this will likely be how i first approach the proceedure, i wouldnt think being that accurate though. So my question is this, would you think it possible to use a timing machine to time a h/s ? . If the microphone could pick up the vibrations while manually vibrating or be adapted in some way to do that ?. My first thoughts are no, 1.  being the vibrations would be too faint for the microphone and 2. The vibrations from the hs would not last long enough to obtain a reading.  Very curious as to what the timegrapher readings would show.

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5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So my question is this, would you think it possible to use a timing machine to time a h/s ? . If the microphone could pick up the vibrations while manually vibrating or be adapted in some way to do that ?. My first thoughts are no, 1.  being the vibrations would be too faint for the microphone and 2. The vibrations from the hs would not last long enough to obtain a reading.  Very curious as to what the timegrapher readings would show.

the biggest problem with using a normal timing machine would be it won't have enough range. When you start with a raw hairspring you'll be out of timekeeping by a very big amounts and easiest way to deal with that would be to have a timing machine that has a beats per hour mode which most witschi machines have and clock timing machines have.

for instance this is an example of a clock timing machine with its optical adapter and their software.

http://www.crackpotinventor.com/mset/tech/hairsprings/springs.html

to even though I said normal timing machines won't vibrated hairsprings because the range problem that's not entirely true there was some timing machines that would do it. For instance the drum type machine the papers spool is inside the drum and pulls out a wraps around and once you've completed you can tear it off important if she'd out basically the drum type machine is interesting is if you look at the printout you can see the line angles up and down a can see how fast or slow you are going but if you are super far out of timekeeping it can actually spiral around the paper and you just have to count how many times and spirals and where it finally lands and you can figure out how far off you are by a very huge amount.

Then you'll notice in the description it claims the holder for the timing machine can vibrated hairsprings. It's really hard to tell the picture but as a way of holding the tweezer so can suspend they hairspring with balance to just barely touches the contact plate and then give it a little motion would probably a puff of air as the balance wheel oscillates back and forth and moves up and down it will tap on the contact and show up on the timing machine.

 

 

 

watchmaster timing machine paper printout.JPG

watchmaster 1956.JPG

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@ossing
In the scope view you cannot see the "length" of the pallets, but - somehow related - you can see if the "lock" is ok or too deep. If shallow, ok or deep, it will occur on both pallet views! 
The middle one of those three main pulses of the tic noise indicates the start of the impulse that drives the balance. The later it comes (more right), the deeper was the lock.Lock.jpg.d5aa9031002d80f0752a042a5150324b.jpg

@Neverenoughwatches
As you expected, a balance w/ hairspring alone will not produce a detectable noise for timing.
You may hold them hovering, just the lower pivot touching the mic once every swing, as John said. But I have no idea, how exact and repeatable this method is.

There is an electronic counting box available, but not for pennies, and you will need a Luthy, not cheap, too. I know the Swatch school Pforzheim/Germany uses this setup. For display they use the Witschi WE in BPH mode.

vibrate.jpg.03d3a1062efd1d16ec5ad8e2bda7cd26.jpg

At least the 18000 balances you can simply test with a stopwatch, timing e.g. 50 full swings.

Frank

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2 hours ago, praezis said:

You may hold them hovering, just the lower pivot touching the mic once every swing, as John said. But I have no idea, how exact and repeatable this method is.

the other place I've seen that is in some of the books on watch repair they talk about using that method of manually timing by counting the ticking sounds. I would have concerns about stretching the hairspring but what about how did the factories do it? For instance I'm attaching a PDF on page 10 there's something a bit cryptic. It basically says as the balance wheel oscillates back and forth that lifts up and down and the Ruby plate moves up and down it doesn't actually say whether you are lifting up high enough to make a ticking sound but this indication is as the balance wheel oscillates up and down the timing machine times that somehow.

but still I personally prefer that the balance wheel not be bouncing up and down is enough ways to destroy hairspring and stretching it doesn't seem like a good method even if you have some exotic machine that shows that method.

3 hours ago, praezis said:

There is an electronic counting box available, but not for pennies, and you will need a Luthy, not cheap, too. I know the Swatch school Pforzheim/Germany uses this setup. For display they use the Witschi WE in BPH mode.

would you know why the school is using this method versus the traditional way of just matching both balance wheels by looking at them?

Then it appears to be that anyone who wants to vibrated hairspring beyond just some casual holding it and counting you're going to have to do some work like for instance in Bench Practices for Watch and Clockmakers by Henry B Fried. So it shows a picture of it was probably commercially made but a way of holding a hairspring and you should bill a make something like that and make the played a little bit bigger. Then there's another picture of where you get a master balance from just find a suitable watch with a suitable balance wheel and I would slice it out from the rest the plate because you need the rest the plate and you have a balance wheel and a way of holding it separate with a piece of glass and you should build his hand rotate and pretend it's a really nice vibrating tool for a fraction of the money.

But Bill rapidly find out why everybody's using the electronic method but still you will bill a vibrator hairspring

 

hairspring vibrating DIY part two.JPG

hairspring vibrating DIY.JPG

Greiner Vibrograf Spiromat Classic.pdf

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3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the other place I've seen that is in some of the books on watch repair they talk about using that method of manually timing by counting the ticking sounds. I would have concerns about stretching the hairspring but what about how did the factories do it? For instance I'm attaching a PDF on page 10 there's something a bit cryptic. It basically says as the balance wheel oscillates back and forth that lifts up and down and the Ruby plate moves up and down it doesn't actually say whether you are lifting up high enough to make a ticking sound but this indication is as the balance wheel oscillates up and down the timing machine times that somehow.

but still I personally prefer that the balance wheel not be bouncing up and down is enough ways to destroy hairspring and stretching it doesn't seem like a good method even if you have some exotic machine that shows that method.

would you know why the school is using this method versus the traditional way of just matching both balance wheels by looking at them?

Then it appears to be that anyone who wants to vibrated hairspring beyond just some casual holding it and counting you're going to have to do some work like for instance in Bench Practices for Watch and Clockmakers by Henry B Fried. So it shows a picture of it was probably commercially made but a way of holding a hairspring and you should bill a make something like that and make the played a little bit bigger. Then there's another picture of where you get a master balance from just find a suitable watch with a suitable balance wheel and I would slice it out from the rest the plate because you need the rest the plate and you have a balance wheel and a way of holding it separate with a piece of glass and you should build his hand rotate and pretend it's a really nice vibrating tool for a fraction of the money.

But Bill rapidly find out why everybody's using the electronic method but still you will bill a vibrator hairspring

 

hairspring vibrating DIY part two.JPG

hairspring vibrating DIY.JPG

Greiner Vibrograf Spiromat Classic.pdf 1.98 MB · 1 download

Thanks John, this is the book i have been reading which made it sound straight forward. The actually proceedure i expect not so 🙂. But it does give me something to practise under my new monster microscope 😃.

6 hours ago, praezis said:

@ossing
In the scope view you cannot see the "length" of the pallets, but - somehow related - you can see if the "lock" is ok or too deep. If shallow, ok or deep, it will occur on both pallet views! 
The middle one of those three main pulses of the tic noise indicates the start of the impulse that drives the balance. The later it comes (more right), the deeper was the lock.Lock.jpg.d5aa9031002d80f0752a042a5150324b.jpg

@Neverenoughwatches
As you expected, a balance w/ hairspring alone will not produce a detectable noise for timing.
You may hold them hovering, just the lower pivot touching the mic once every swing, as John said. But I have no idea, how exact and repeatable this method is.

There is an electronic counting box available, but not for pennies, and you will need a Luthy, not cheap, too. I know the Swatch school Pforzheim/Germany uses this setup. For display they use the Witschi WE in BPH mode.

vibrate.jpg.03d3a1062efd1d16ec5ad8e2bda7cd26.jpg

At least the 18000 balances you can simply test with a stopwatch, timing e.g. 50 full swings.

Frank

Appreciate the information thanks Frank. I do like the idea of having a Luthy. There is one for sale on the well known site, not a cheap item and i dont know enough to know if its complete. 

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6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

this is the book i have been reading which made it sound straight forward. The actually proceedure i expect not so

one of the minor problems with the book is the author. For instance here's a link to a video that was made showing how to straighten hair Springs and notice how simple he makes it look. So yes if you're really really really good all of this should be really really simple

https://youtu.be/egCwtMMoOCU

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the minor problems with the book is the author. For instance here's a link to a video that was made showing how to straighten hair Springs and notice how simple he makes it look. So yes if you're really really really good all of this should be really really simple

https://youtu.be/egCwtMMoOCU

 

 

 

Haha. Yes i know john, ive seen that video before. But he wasn't always that good 🙂. I'm expecting to be terrible at it to start with and destroy a lot of springs while practicing.  But I'm also expecting to become good at it even if it takes years of practice. I dont give up on anything i try John, i only stop doing something when i can do it. I feel lucky that i have extremely steady hands and very good fine motor skills ( muscle fibre motor ). My attitude when working, not just on watches but the job i do for a living, is to get the job done regardless of what it is or what i have to overcome. If someone tells me i cant do something then i set myself up  to make sure that i can i do it if its within my capabilites. I appreciate your help John, very kind of you and Frank to weigh in and help. I will bring the subject up again in time when i have made some progress.

20 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the biggest problem with using a normal timing machine would be it won't have enough range. When you start with a raw hairspring you'll be out of timekeeping by a very big amounts and easiest way to deal with that would be to have a timing machine that has a beats per hour mode which most witschi machines have and clock timing machines have.

for instance this is an example of a clock timing machine with its optical adapter and their software.

http://www.crackpotinventor.com/mset/tech/hairsprings/springs.html

to even though I said normal timing machines won't vibrated hairsprings because the range problem that's not entirely true there was some timing machines that would do it. For instance the drum type machine the papers spool is inside the drum and pulls out a wraps around and once you've completed you can tear it off important if she'd out basically the drum type machine is interesting is if you look at the printout you can see the line angles up and down a can see how fast or slow you are going but if you are super far out of timekeeping it can actually spiral around the paper and you just have to count how many times and spirals and where it finally lands and you can figure out how far off you are by a very huge amount.

Then you'll notice in the description it claims the holder for the timing machine can vibrated hairsprings. It's really hard to tell the picture but as a way of holding the tweezer so can suspend they hairspring with balance to just barely touches the contact plate and then give it a little motion would probably a puff of air as the balance wheel oscillates back and forth and moves up and down it will tap on the contact and show up on the timing machine.

 

 

 

watchmaster timing machine paper printout.JPG

watchmaster 1956.JPG

Interesting set up john. But i think it could be improved upon. My thoughts for using a timegrapher are to make some  kind of acoustic box incorporating the acrylic plate. And also around the plate as well to retain and amplify as much of the vibrations as possible. Using materials that have the least acoustic absorbency. A fine micro screw adjustment set into the holder would also make things a little easier.

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16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

… something a bit cryptic. It basically says as the balance wheel oscillates back and forth that lifts up and down and the Ruby plate moves up and down it doesn't actually say whether you are lifting up high enough to make a ticking sound but this indication is as the balance wheel oscillates up and down the timing machine times that somehow.

The balance does not have to toc on that ruby plate. Its slight movement up and down influences a high frequency oscillator via a metal plate that is one side of a capacitor. The varying frequency is base of the evaluation.

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

would you know why the school is using this method versus the traditional way of just matching both balance wheels by looking at them?

Maybe because it turns an unpleasant task into pure joy? And is doable by unexperienced persons with limited time.

Frank

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20 hours ago, praezis said:

Maybe because it turns an unpleasant task into pure joy? And is doable by unexperienced persons with limited time.

are you suggesting that other people besides me found hairspring vibrating a pain in the something? Then yes it would definitely speed up vibrating hairspring

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5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

are you suggesting that other people besides me found hairspring vibrating a pain in the something? Then yes it would definitely speed up vibrating hairspring

Yes, e.g. me 😀
… before I used that box.

Frank

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