Keyless and motion works - HP1300 vs. 9501 vs. 9504

[GuyMontag]

I have both the HP1300 and 9501 on hand (but not the 9504) but after having read through the now locked thread I'm still not clear if (in the absence of a tech sheet) one is preferred over the others throughout the entire motion and keyless works or if one is preferred in certain areas and the other(s) for the remainder. Any guidance would be welcomed.

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

Any guidance would be welcomed.

this is a lubrication question that means everyone's going to have an opinion as it tends to be a lot of confusion over lubrication.

12 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

9501 on hand (but not the 9504)

a lot of the answers will depend upon whose lubrication chart or information you looking at and of course when it was published. Typically if you're using the oil your supposed Epilam everything to keep it from spreading all over the place.

then so I don't have to write several paragraphs I just stepped out an image for you. Basically 9501 is the base of 9504 which just has an additive of the dry high-pressure lubricant. so 950 what is just a basically nice general-purpose grease but personally I find the 9504 Is Way better. It's what I use on the entire it keyless mechanism all of all the watches that I work on. I don't have to worry about typically a manufacturers tech sheet because vintage watches don't have tech sheets. I found places where the 9504 has worked so much better than anything else because it's designed for much higher pressures. So give a lot of metal on metal bearings 18 size pocket watches for instance it has made a big improvement. The basically don't need both of them and I'd go for the 9504.

 

[nickelsilver]

I use both, but I agree with John that the 9504 is really the superior grease. I like 9501 for something like a chronograph with display back as it seems to be a bit less visible in use. You would use it on all sliding contact surfaces, but not on things like the minute wheel post, there a thick oil is probably best. I say probably as given the slow speed with which the minute wheel or intermediate setting pinion turn I doubt anything bad would happen if they were greased.

 

Of course if you talk to someone even more old school than me or John they might swear by something like KT22 for these parts, or if it's a Swiss guy it might be Blasolube from their military gun servicing kit (seriously).

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

but not on things like the minute wheel post, there a thick oil is probably best. I say probably as given the slow speed with which the minute wheel or intermediate setting pinion turn I doubt anything bad would happen if they were greased.

I'm typically doing pocket watches so I use grease on basically everything on the dial side including the minute will post. As far as I know I'm not having any issues. But if I was doing little tiny ladies watches I probably rethink some of that perhaps.

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

KT22

I've heard of that but I never actually of ever used it.

when I was first in school I really don't remember what we used for lubrication at all. but I did memorize school in Switzerland was pretty simple 8300 for everything that was heavy including the mainspring. 9020 for the gear train and 9010 for the balance and the pallet fork or escapement. But other than one timing machine with analog amplitude meter they weren't obsessed with amplitude yet. but that was to change Greiner came with this nifty machine that did a little of everything including at a amplitude meter. After a discussion with the instructor lots of yelling and screaming in the office when they left their demo machines stayed. And on the machine was a digital amplitude meter probably the started becoming obsessed with amplitude. This is where 8300 is far too heavy in my mind for the mainspring. While the rest the lubrication is it recommended today that would really be an issue.

I was looking for something and stumble across vintage Rolex lubrication so I'm attaching that. That's because the center wheel is lubricated with what exactly? And seeing as how this is vintage lubrication we have no idea what these lubrication's actually are other than there's the word grease. Maybe Rolex at that time was not upset with epilam. Because of you look at vintage Omega they were obsessed with epilam and superlight lubrication's on the keyless mechanism.

then up until I discovered 9504 the grease of choice for the keyless works for me was PML stem grease. I think Rolex at one time was using it but then they switched to all Swiss products at least that was the rumor. Anyone ever described it said it always gave the keyless works a nice silky smooth feeling. Plus I like that seem to have a really really long life.

19 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

HP1300

thinking about the HP 1300 let's have a controversy were not having a controversy this discussion yet we need to have a one of those.

you go to cousins at the link below you get the list of Omega working instructions that they have which is limited but you still get the lubrication guide which hasn't really changed much so we can get idea what Omega's using an Omega's part of Swatch group.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

as you go down the list you'll find working instruction number 40 that's the lubrication guide and let's see what they recommend the HP oils for?although I am going to narrow it down because it to recommendations for HP oil but I only care about the HP 1300 and because it's easier to do I do snipped out the image and we can see what they're using the HP oil for plus the 9504 I indicated those

then of course they describe places where you should use of various lubricants like the HP 1300  high-pressure rotating items such as the mainspring barrel.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

while I was here I stepped out the famous lubrication chart they were publishing this for years but the last several years there's now a warning at the bottom of the page which I circled. Notice if you have brass bearings which Lotta mainspring barrels would be considered breakfast notice what the recommendation for lubrication is. I suppose this is open to a certain degree of interpretation as to what a brass bearings like would some of the keyless components be considered brass even though their plated or of your mainspring barrel is pleaded I suppose maybe it's not brass even though it's made out of brass. Or what about center wheels in pocket watches non-jeweled there definitely brass.

it would be really nice if moebius would've explained at the bottom of the chart why they have this recommendation as far as I can tell it's the only place they have the recommendation I haven't looked lately but it does not appear in the technical sheets only on the chart.

Edited October 14, 2022 by JohnR725

[GuyMontag]

Lot's of good stuff in this thread, much appreciated. I still have a few questions and will gather my thoughts and see if I can't put them into something coherent in the morning.

[Birbdad]

Ok I had a big long post typed up because i was confused about a number of things including why the spec sheet i got here and the one on seikos website recommend different lubricants. 

But this video really is pretty logical about this stuff. Wondering what you all think of it as it does make logical sense and if it's good information i can break free from these confusing spec sheets that sometimes seem to tell me the polar opposite of what anybody here would recommend.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Birbdad

[ifibrin]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

What i have to work with was what most people recommended and it was 9010, hp1300, 9415 for the pallet fork jewel, and molykote dx for keyless works and  other random thick grease applications.

I would use Molykote DX (or HP1300 if the parts have been surface treated) for the keyless works.

For the barrel arbor (first wheel), center wheel (second wheel), and third wheel, use HP 1300. The cannon pinion also would use HP1300. These are the parts with lower speed, and higher torque.

For the fourth wheel, escape wheel, and balance wheel, use 9010. These pivots face higher speed, and low torque.

I wouldn’t oil the pallet fork pivots, although I think Seiko has had some documentation where the pallet fork pivots have been oiled. I think this controversy over Seiko oiling of pallet fork pivots has been going on for a long time. The pallet jewel faces, should be oiled with a tiny amount of 9415.

Don’t worry over following every single tech sheet to the smallest details… wait till you get to the teeth of the winding pinion: some sheets call for them to be oiled as well, but you would have learned that gear teeth aren’t supposed to be oiled!

Edited October 24, 2022 by ifibrin

[JohnR725]

53 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

First order of confusion is why the heck is the 7s26c service sheet on my pc which i downloaded from here and the one on seikos website totally different in which lube they recommend where?

typically when tech sheets are different they were published at different times.

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Moebius A = 9010

yyou'll notice at the link below that the lubrication this all have numbers and names.. At one time they just had the names so 9010 is equal to Synt-A-Lube which is basically what you have on the Seiko sheet which is why it's 9010

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

(I was told not to lube the pallet fork pivot jewels at all tho the service sheet says to? Confusing!)

it gets even more confusing depending upon which tech sheet you look at for Seiko. Don't remember but one model that the tech sheet is gone through several revisions originally it was yes oil the pivots that it was no you don't oil the pivots and then it was back to ESC oil the pivots. Typically yes Seiko oils the pivots and somewhere in the universe Seiko probably explains why they do it but we haven't found it yet. So the rest the world recommends not oiling the pivots but Seiko does it anyway. Then if you do oil the pivots you will or can lose amplitude and Seiko is typically run with really horrible amplitudes but it's probably not entirely for the reason of oiling the pallet fork pivots

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

I guess my confusion comes from just me not being entirely sure what's low or high torque. I jut did the keyless works which i know should get grease but i'm unsure whether the center wheel and pinion would be high or low torque. Is there a formula to intuitively know which wheels are high and low torque? 

I'm more going for learning the principles of lubrication instead of going just by service sheets, just knowing which lube to use where.

while you're on the website for lubrication make sure you download the lubrication chart is to see what they're recommending  and get the product catalogs that lists all the lubricants with specifications

then lubrication is also a problem because everybody has an opinion and everyone's opinion may be different than everyone else. Then it depends upon how opinionated people are as to whether we can have a civil conversation or not.

11 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

(or HP1300 if the parts have been surface treated)

you'll notice the recommendation here which by the way I happen to agree with  if you're using the HP oil on anything other than  jeweled bearings  you should epilam or surface treat it to keep it from spreading.. If you look at the lubrication chart  that you downloaded and look at the bottom of the chart you'll find it amusing recommendation for the HP oils  were basically recommendation of where not to use it and then the recommending a different oil  just because they can make things confusing by doing this.  So my basic guess is if it's a jeweled bearings probably okay but anything metal on metal with HP oils needs to be surface treated or the oil spreads. Which is why on all the keyless parts I would recommend a grease of whatever choice you happen to like.

16 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

For the barrel arbor (first wheel), center wheel (second wheel), and third wheel, use HP 1300. The cannon pinion also would use HP1300.

For the fourth wheel, escape wheel, and balance wheel, use 9010.

I believe Swatch group recommends HP  1300 for the barrel arbor.. I prefer a grease.. The center wheel  typically I do use HP 1300 but  I do have a concern with a note that's on the bottom of the lubrication chart as to whether if it's a non-jeweled bearing whether I should be using D5.  then cannon pinion  I like grease then of course my grease currently have choices 9504 fortunately I'm at work and I don't have to pay for. Unfortunately that's another thing that we influence your choice of lubrication is the cost. Then for the entire gear train I like 9020  which is not a new list of lubricants up above..  Plus I like to use 9020 on the balance pivots even though that goes against the world trend of 9010 universally everywhere on the planet they use 9010. But  I did say everyone gets to have an opinion on this and if it works for you  then it's fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Birbdad]

36 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

I would use Molykote DX (or HP1300 if the parts have been surface treated) for the keyless works.

For the barrel arbor (first wheel), center wheel (second wheel), and third wheel, use HP 1300. The cannon pinion also would use HP1300. These are the parts with lower speed, and higher torque.

For the fourth wheel, escape wheel, and balance wheel, use 9010. These pivots face higher speed, and low torque.

I wouldn’t oil the pallet fork pivots, although I think Seiko has had some documentation where the pallet fork pivots have been oiled. I think this controversy over Seiko oiling of pallet fork pivots has been going on for a long time. The pallet jewel faces, should be oiled with a tiny amount of 9415.

Don’t worry over following every single tech sheet to the smallest details… wait till you get to the teeth of the winding pinion: some sheets call for them to be oiled as well, but you would have learned that gear teeth aren’t supposed to be oiled!

So wait they mention in two places to lube the winding pinion teeth AND one of them is it's own dedicated graphics to make sure you know to lubricate them and you're really not supposed to? 

I think seiko is drunk lol.

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

typically when tech sheets are different they were published at different times.

yyou'll notice at the link below that the lubrication this all have numbers and names.. At one time they just had the names so 9010 is equal to Synt-A-Lube which is basically what you have on the Seiko sheet which is why it's 9010

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

That is a serious difference. Those two lubes dont' strike me as interchangeable at all.

 

 

then lubrication is also a problem because everybody has an opinion and everyone's opinion may be different than everyone else. Then it depends upon how opinionated people are as to whether we can have a civil conversation or not.

you'll notice the recommendation here which by the way I happen to agree with  if you're using the HP oil on anything other than  jeweled bearings  you should epilam or surface treat it to keep it from spreading.. If you look at the lubrication chart  that you downloaded and look at the bottom of the chart you'll find it amusing recommendation for the HP oils  were basically recommendation of where not to use it and then the recommending a different oil  just because they can make things confusing by doing this.  So my basic guess is if it's a jeweled bearings probably okay but anything metal on metal with HP oils needs to be surface treated or the oil spreads. Which is why on all the keyless parts I would recommend a grease of whatever choice you happen to like.

Whether hobbyists need to bother with epilam (Sure it will make your service last longer.) seems to be a pretty big point of contention. I am using molycote for all metal sliding including the keyless works but i'm going to use the hp1300 on the low speed stuff and see what happens. Wish somebody would come out with an epilam that wasn't like 200 f'ing dollars for just the cost of entry...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ifibrin]

7 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

So wait they mention in two places to lube the winding pinion teeth AND one of them is it's own dedicated graphics to make sure you know to lubricate them and you're really not supposed to? 

I think seiko is drunk lol.

Generally teeth of wheels/gears are not supposed to be oiled, but I have seen exceptions: in the documentation for some movements, the teeth of the winding pinion are oiled.

Take a look here: 
https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/22363-oiling-teeth-of-winding-pinion-yes-or-no/

Till today, I’m not sure how to feel about that.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by ifibrin

[Birbdad]

2 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Generally teeth of wheels/gears are not supposed to be oiled, but I have seen exceptions: in the documentation for some movements, the teeth of the winding pinion are oiled.

Take a look here: 
https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/22363-oiling-teeth-of-winding-pinion-yes-or-no/

Till today, I’m not sure how to feel about that.

 

seiko not only wants you to oil them but they want you to oil the living crap out of them....

Edited October 24, 2022 by Birbdad

[canthus]

Some tech info for those interested. 

My research some time  ago determined that both greases are calcium complex with an additional silicon dioxide thickener, and NLGI 1 consistency.  They both have synthetic base oil and esters/di-esters.  Both have viscosity improvers (makes a thinner oil seem thicker than normal as temp increases), anti-oxidant and corrosion inhibitors and 9504 has an EP additive.  Oil viscosity at 20dgc is 176 cSt @ 20c for 9501 (ie ISO VG68) and 305 cSt at 20c for 9504 (ISO VG100). [VG is an industry standard for viscosity ranges].   They are described as high friction greases (probably the silicon dioxide).  The blue colours are only a dye. 

My learned grease expert friend says the 9501/9504 are expensive formulations!

HP1300 has a POA/SHC (synthesised hydrocarbon) oil base with viscosity of 1267 cSt at 20degc (ISO VG320). No info on additives but suggest it has anti-oxidant and corrosion inhibitors. Also likely to have EP additives.  The red colour is only a dye, it is also available undyed.

 

Apart from them being 'greases' and 'oil', the viscosity of the base oil (this is what does the lubrication!!) is significantly different re oil vs greases.  This may suggest that the oil is thicker so it stays in place whilst handling high loads.  The greases use lighter oils and esters for lubrication, and rely on the grease fillers etc to hold it in place. 

No doubt both would do a suitable job in keyless works.

Phew!!!

** This info is from my own research at the time a few years ago and  may not be 100% accurate, I accept no responsibility if this info is misused or misinterpreted. **

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by canthus

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, Birbdad said:

seiko not only wants you to oil them but they want you to oil the living crap out of them

sad it has the same color scree

in your Seiko image you're showing the automatic part of the watch which is different than the previous discussion of gears being lubricated. This is the part that the magic fingers push on and of course the teeth are supposed to lubricated otherwise the magic fingers pushing on them wear them out in the probably where the about anyway. And then that thing probably has a lot of its revolving all the times it needs lots of lubrication.

Which is different than lubricating the edges of teeth on wheels that revolve because these actually have metal on metal surface contact with visible different than gears which traditionally at least and watch repair typically are not lubricated.

seeing as how I was looking at a Rolex technical guide right now for other reasons I snipped out an image and I put a little tiny arrow everything looks fine of how I would probably lubricate a Rolex if I was doing one except the lubricating the ends of? Yes I love watch parts they have various names I believe that in their drawing is the sliding pinion but don't quote me on that. The lubricating the ends of the teeth now let's go find a current ETA as they tend to have lots of variations over time. unhelpful the sites down for maintenance now it figure out where I would put the newest technical documents

6497 2017 version as you can see grease on some of the parts of the setting and heavy oil for everything else and of course everything is epilam. Then as far as the gear train goes HP oil except on the balance escape wheel and fourth wheel is 9010. I find it's an interesting mix of super heavy and super lights with nothing in between but that's what they recommend that in 2017

10 hours ago, canthus said:

The blue colours are only a dye.

looking at their websites they've expanded their color choices.so the 9501 comes in its standard blue also  is colored red and no color plus florescent. So in other words you can check it with UV light to see where it's gone to a guess. then the 9504 you don't get down the color red but you can have all the rest. I guess you can now color coordinate your lubrication's.

since both the 9501 in the 9504 supposed to be the same base in any case here is an interesting term used to describe it on the website slightly thixotropic.  to understand what that means is a Wikipedia link. You'll find that word associated with the 9415 escapement lubricant. Where it stays as a grease until impact and becomes a slippery fluid. Then returning back to its grease like property will once the impact goes away eventually. So my guess for the 950 whatever is that it would allow the grease to be more likely to stay wherever you put it if he gets kinda like on the keyless mechanisms worry of high-pressure returns a little bit fluid it's likely to flow back to wherever it came from as opposed to getting pushed to the side but that's an uneducated guess on my part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

 

[VWatchie]

I just re-serviced the first movement where I used Moebius 9504 for the keyless works, etc.

When inspecting the parts coming out of my cleaning machine I noticed that the parts that had been lubricated with 9504 had a "wax-like" surface. The only way I was able to remove this "wax" was to soak the parts in a degreaser (Horosolv) and brush them off with a fine paintbrush.

Generally, I feel hand cleaning is too much work for me (unless necessary) so I will return to either Moebius 9501 or (more likely) Molykote DX as it's less expensive. I will possibly also treat the friction parts of the keyless works with epilame depending on the calibre.

In my ELMA cleaning machine, I use ELMA RED 9:1 (max 10 min), demineralized water (approx. 1.5 min), IPA (approx. 2 min), and then I dry the parts in the heating chamber for about two minutes.