Jump to content

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Looking forward to using it as soon as i find a burnishing tool.

My first burnisher was a Vallorbe Swiss (Cousins code 3211). One end is coarse (for shaping?) and the opposite end is fine (for burnishing?).

9 hours ago, Mark said:

if you have a dual purpose pivot file/burnisher you can shape and burnish within a few strokes.

I would guess that the Vallorbe Swiss is just that, a "dual purpose".

Anyway, I believe it was @nickelsilverwho mentioned that the rounded edge of the Vallorbe Swiss was better suited for pocket watch staffs and recommend the Bergeon burnisher for wrist watch staffs. So, I got that too (Cousins code B33496). It's the Bergeon burnisher that I've been using, although I haven't yet burnished any balance staffs. The Bergeon burnisher has only one fine side.

I'm not sure the coarse side of the Vallorbe Swiss is really necessary as I can easily and pretty quickly reduce (shape) the pivot diameter using the Bergeon burnisher. Perhaps, using the coarse side of the Vallorbe Swiss would make it quicker to shape the pivot before burnishing, and maybe that's what you're supposed to do, yes, no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

My first burnisher was a Vallorbe Swiss (Cousins code 3211). One end is coarse (for shaping?) and the opposite end is fine (for burnishing?).

I would guess that the Vallorbe Swiss is just that, a "dual purpose".

Anyway, I believe it was @nickelsilverwho mentioned that the rounded edge of the Vallorbe Swiss was better suited for pocket watch staffs and recommend the Bergeon burnisher for wrist watch staffs. So, I got that too (Cousins code B33496). It's the Bergeon burnisher that I've been using, although I haven't yet burnished any balance staffs. The Bergeon burnisher has only one fine side.

I'm not sure the coarse side of the Vallorbe Swiss is really necessary as I can easily and pretty quickly reduce (shape) the pivot diameter using the Bergeon burnisher. Perhaps, using the coarse side of the Vallorbe Swiss would make it quicker to shape the pivot before burnishing, and maybe that's what you're supposed to do, yes, no?

I would be tempted to stick with something that reduces size,and shapes at a steady pace. It's so easy to overdo it with something of a too course nature. You can't  put back what you've taken off. We quickly learn with experience though how far a tool will take us before we need to switch to a different method. Appreciate the info on the burnishers Watchie. I've heard of jasper stones being used as a finish. I used to use Arkansas and washita stones for fine joinery chisel sharpening. I also have an extremely fine Welsh slate stone. I was thinking of taking a thin slice off them and dress them up to a good square edge. Tomorrow's project maybe. A bit to think about on a staff pivot, to keep  within its set dimentions. Diameter, length, conical shoulder, it's finished end shape. 

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would be tempted to stick with something that reduces size,and shapes at a steady pace. It's so easy to overdo it with something of a too course nature. You can't  put back what you've taken off. We quickly learn with experience though how far a tool will take us before we need to switch to a different method. Appreciate the info on the burnishers Watchie. I've heard of jasper stones being used as a finish. I used to use Arkansas and washita stones for fine joinery chisel sharpening. I also have an extremely fine Welsh slate stone. I was thinking of taking a thin slice off them and dress them up to a good square edge. Tomorrow's project maybe. A bit to think about on a staff pivot, to keep  within its set dimentions. Diameter, length, conical shoulder, it's finished end shape. 

Morning Watchie, I'd be curious to know how much detail you can create on a staff pivot with the Bergeon burnisher. What is the difference between the Vallorbe and the Bergeon, is it their abrasive ability ? would you mind putting up a photo of them please Watchie ?

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Morning Watchie, I'd be curious to know how much detail you can create on a staff pivot with the Bergeon burnisher. What is the difference between the Vallorbe and the Bergeon, is it their abrasive ability ? would you mind putting up a photo of them please Watchie ?

Just had a look on cousins, not much detail on them and the pictures aren't much use. Pretty expensive for what they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Morning Watchie, I'd be curious to know how much detail you can create on a staff pivot with the Bergeon burnisher.

Sorry but I don't understand the question and I haven't yet worked on any staff pivots.

24 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What is the difference between the Vallorbe and the Bergeon, is it their abrasive ability

The Bergeon has a single side burnisher whereas the Vallorbe has two sides, a burnisher side and a file side.

Comparing the burnishers I believe they have the same abrasiveness (although the surfaces of the two look a bit different). Of course, the file side on the Vallorbe is a lot more abrasive. Also, notice that the rounded edge on the Bergeon burnisher is smaller and better suited for wristwatch movements whereas the rounded edge of the Vallorbe burnisher is larger and better suited for larger, pocket watch movements, or so I have been told, but it makes sense.

IMG_9387.thumb.JPG.19319d3e2f9d1a555a6340fcce0db5a6.JPG

IMG_9388.thumb.JPG.8250c077e7353ec23b97bd8e48f9e455.JPG

IMG_9389.thumb.JPG.459c64b23fc54952ed9f3e7c6c5f6b1c.JPG

IMG_9390.thumb.JPG.3e51cfafb0b7204215f51cb6c7866a48.JPG

IMG_9394.thumb.JPG.8952d5f481180628c5bc0f7a3a672d12.JPG

IMG_9393.thumb.JPG.f739e26d142da8fb2ee04b3acf0b26b1.JPG

IMG_9391.thumb.JPG.103fae5ed3c2e5549fe2e05beff59692.JPG

IMG_9392.thumb.JPG.1c727c7cbf0f4540a1c57d3a96486f4a.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:
1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Sorry but I don't understand the question and I haven't yet worked on any staff pivots.

It wasn't really a question Watchie i noticed eariler that you said you had not done anything with a staff pivot. I was just thinking through a post as to how much detail on a staff pivot was possible with the Bergeon that nickelsilver had recommended. Such as smoothing out the shaped cone of a pivot shoulder.

16 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Sorry but I don't understand the question and I haven't yet worked on any staff pivots.

The Bergeon has a single side burnisher whereas the Vallorbe has two sides, a burnisher side and a file side.

Comparing the burnishers I believe they have the same abrasiveness (although the surfaces of the two look a bit different). Of course, the file side on the Vallorbe is a lot more abrasive. Also, notice that the rounded edge on the Bergeon burnisher is smaller and better suited for wristwatch movements whereas the rounded edge of the Vallorbe burnisher is larger and better suited for larger, pocket watch movements, or so I have been told, but it makes sense.

IMG_9387.thumb.JPG.19319d3e2f9d1a555a6340fcce0db5a6.JPG

IMG_9388.thumb.JPG.8250c077e7353ec23b97bd8e48f9e455.JPG

IMG_9389.thumb.JPG.459c64b23fc54952ed9f3e7c6c5f6b1c.JPG

IMG_9390.thumb.JPG.3e51cfafb0b7204215f51cb6c7866a48.JPG

IMG_9394.thumb.JPG.8952d5f481180628c5bc0f7a3a672d12.JPG

IMG_9393.thumb.JPG.f739e26d142da8fb2ee04b3acf0b26b1.JPG

IMG_9391.thumb.JPG.103fae5ed3c2e5549fe2e05beff59692.JPG

IMG_9392.thumb.JPG.1c727c7cbf0f4540a1c57d3a96486f4a.JPG

 

Those photos are brilliant thanks, that helps me to decide what to use. I was thinking of making something, maybe not possible looking at these.

28 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Sorry but I don't understand the question and I haven't yet worked on any staff pivots.

The Bergeon has a single side burnisher whereas the Vallorbe has two sides, a burnisher side and a file side.

Comparing the burnishers I believe they have the same abrasiveness (although the surfaces of the two look a bit different). Of course, the file side on the Vallorbe is a lot more abrasive. Also, notice that the rounded edge on the Bergeon burnisher is smaller and better suited for wristwatch movements whereas the rounded edge of the Vallorbe burnisher is larger and better suited for larger, pocket watch movements, or so I have been told, but it makes sense.

IMG_9387.thumb.JPG.19319d3e2f9d1a555a6340fcce0db5a6.JPG

IMG_9388.thumb.JPG.8250c077e7353ec23b97bd8e48f9e455.JPG

IMG_9389.thumb.JPG.459c64b23fc54952ed9f3e7c6c5f6b1c.JPG

IMG_9390.thumb.JPG.3e51cfafb0b7204215f51cb6c7866a48.JPG

IMG_9394.thumb.JPG.8952d5f481180628c5bc0f7a3a672d12.JPG

IMG_9393.thumb.JPG.f739e26d142da8fb2ee04b3acf0b26b1.JPG

IMG_9391.thumb.JPG.103fae5ed3c2e5549fe2e05beff59692.JPG

IMG_9392.thumb.JPG.1c727c7cbf0f4540a1c57d3a96486f4a.JPG

 

The Vallorbe tbh looks like it has a slightly finer grain to it but more random as opposed  to the uniform grain of the bergeon.This maybe gives the vallorbe a more aggresives cut. What magnification are we looking at here watchie ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, dadistic said:

One thing to remember about a burnisher, is that it is *not* a file. The point is not to remove material, but to compress and work harden the pivot. 

Cheers!

When you burnish a damaged pivot, perhaps it has been scored by a cracked jewel or has rusted, it will diminish the pivot diameter. So, it will remove material! I'd say the typical situation in my experience is that you will need to remove 1-2/100 mm but more may be required depending on the situation.

Of course, there's a limit on how much you can remove from the pivot before the jewel has to be replaced. And there's a limit to how much you can remove before the pivot becomes too weak for its job. It depends on the original pivot diameter. Mind you, I do this with my Bergeon burnisher which, unlike the Vallorbe tool, doesn't have a file, just a burnisher. Please see the images in my previous post.

As an experiment practising with my Jacot tool and Bergeon burnisher only I have reduced the pivot diameter of a 0.17 mm pivot to 0.07 mm. So, it works as a file too but the end result, if done correctly, will be a pivot with a (very near) mirror shine.

I'd say the point is to remove as little material as possible.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually the textured burnishers used for pivot work can be seen as ultra-fine files. They do compress the metal, but they also remove some metal, that's the "black stuff" on the burnisher after some strokes.

 

A really fine textured burnisher will have a cutoff point though where it won't really remove material any more. A more aggressively textured one would continue to cut (and burnish)... but, it won't leave quite as fine of a finish on the part. The Bergeons are pretty spot on right out of the box. I had a Vallorbe when I was in school last century but as VW mentioned the radius is too large for most watch work, and the file is useless for watch work (maybe for a center wheel or barrel arbor?).

 

Ha VW posted while I was writing.

Edited by nickelsilver
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I stand corrected 🙂 thanks!

I think I understand the cutoff you mention, if the pivot is work hardened the way I expect it should be,  a fine "file" will no longer cut. 

And darn it, now I can't find my burnisher to check what I have. All this moving around ergh.

Cheers!

Found it. Vallorbe LP 3215 left handed. AF Swiss catalog calls it a double ended pivot file cut 000 to cut 8, when I bought it it was sold as a burnisher. Looking at it under the microscope, it's not very well made, or confusingly made. On end is definitely a file, and the other is a ground surface, pretty smooth. I don't have access to the stuff to check microfinish anymore, but it is pretty fine. The radius on the relieved edge is poorly done,  inconsistent, and on both sides part of the radius is serrated and part smooth. 

Off to find a Bergeon burnisher!

Thanks

Aargh. Not now.

Now I know why I bought the Vallorbe. Best US price, $130. Cousins is better, but they are out of stock on the left handed one. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, dadistic said:

I stand corrected 🙂 thanks!

I think I understand the cutoff you mention, if the pivot is work hardened the way I expect it should be,  a fine "file" will no longer cut. 

And darn it, now I can't find my burnisher to check what I have. All this moving around ergh.

Cheers!

Eyup Dave how you doin mate ? Thinking about it as with my post earlier regarding the burnishers is that everything that has a surface must have a texture or a grain so in effect has its own cutting surface,  be it at a microscopic level if so . So in theory if one surface is harder than another ( higher up on the mohs scale) the harder surface will cut the softer surface. As with Watchies burnishers their cutting surfaces are machined to whatever is required, but even without their machining they would still have their own grained surface from being forged i guess. Nicklesilver's cut off point I'm assuming is when the burnisher's effectiveness has dropped off to the point where the pivot being polished has reached the finishing level that burnisher can achieve. Even with a mirror like finish on the pivot there would still be a grained texture visible at some level of magnification. Also to consider would be the hardening of the pivot, i can only guess that this has something to do with its structure being altered through heat and pressure.

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

an experiment practising with my Jacot tool and Bergeon burnisher only I have reduced the pivot diameter of a 0.17 mm pivot to 0.07 mm. So, it works as a file too but the end result, if done correctly, will be a pivot with a (very near) mirror shine.

Thats some reduction watchie, what was the turn around time for doing this ?

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Also to consider would be the hardening of the pivot, i can only guess that this has something to do with its structure being altered through heat and pressure.

Work hardening, a tightening of the materials structure by pushing its molecules closer together ? The same is possible with timber.  Compressing anything will increase its density, whether its thoughtout its entirety or just a variable surface depth  as with a pivot. Tough hard outer shell with a softer center ( like me 😉 )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The burnishing that I am familiar with outside of watchmaking is cold working of a metal, non abrasive.  There is such a thing as "roller burnishing",  there is almost no abrasion when doing that. 

Work hardening causes similar changes to metal  as heat treatment,  deforming the metal with pressure changes the grain structure. 

The goal is to create a hard, smooth surface.  Again, the burnishing that I know about deforms the metal so that surface defects are removed, and in the process hardens the surface of the metal.  The hard layer is sort of like what you get when you do "case hardening". 

Cheers!

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dadistic said:

The burnishing that I am familiar with outside of watchmaking is cold working of a metal, non abrasive.  There is such a thing as "roller burnishing",  there is almost no abrasion when doing that. 

Work hardening causes similar changes to metal  as heat treatment,  deforming the metal with pressure changes the grain structure. 

The goal is to create a hard, smooth surface.  Again, the burnishing that I know about deforms the metal so that surface defects are removed, and in the process hardens the surface of the metal.  The hard layer is sort of like what you get when you do "case hardening". 

Cheers!

A bit of googling has come up with , plastic deformation. So the evening out of the peaks and troughs of a material.  Compression of the outer surface defects . I wonder if these burnishers then continue to cut their grained surface on the pivot. Maybe looking at this a bit too hard now to be of any more use lol. They cut, they compress, they harden. As long as they do their intended jobs. That extra knowledge i see as helpful in knowing what cheaper alternatives there are. Particularly in making something that is as effective as a high cost tool. They're really just a hard piece of steel with a micro cutting surface. Whats wrong with a seperate cutting medium and then a hard dressed steel edge ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Particularly in making something that is as effective as a high cost tool. They're really just a hard piece of steel with a micro cutting surface.

Depending on how long you want to spend on making a burnisher, it may actually be cheaper to buy a ready made Bergeon one.

Daniels has written in “Watchmaking” on how to make a burnisher, but I suspect it may take a number of tries before anyone can make a burnisher that is even close to a commercial Bergeon one. Take a look:

7373CB27-D2B7-48A8-B79F-0BF78BEC08A1.thumb.jpeg.29a734b6bcfed13c0479e6430a0688a7.jpeg

3976D7A4-F445-435C-8CD9-E2BE96B10B3B.thumb.jpeg.5b6a9e2ebbd66c47c317a3990ebb14ef.jpeg

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Depending on how long you want to spend on making a burnisher, it may actually be cheaper to buy a ready made Bergeon one.

Daniels has written in “Watchmaking” on how to make a burnisher, but I suspect it may take a number of tries before anyone can make a burnisher that is even close to a commercial Bergeon one. Take a look:

7373CB27-D2B7-48A8-B79F-0BF78BEC08A1.thumb.jpeg.29a734b6bcfed13c0479e6430a0688a7.jpeg

3976D7A4-F445-435C-8CD9-E2BE96B10B3B.thumb.jpeg.5b6a9e2ebbd66c47c317a3990ebb14ef.jpeg

Thanks ifibrin.  I would still like to try though with a bit of tool making experimentation before i shell out over a hundred notes

7 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Depending on how long you want to spend on making a burnisher, it may actually be cheaper to buy a ready made Bergeon one.

Daniels has written in “Watchmaking” on how to make a burnisher, but I suspect it may take a number of tries before anyone can make a burnisher that is even close to a commercial Bergeon one. Take a look:

7373CB27-D2B7-48A8-B79F-0BF78BEC08A1.thumb.jpeg.29a734b6bcfed13c0479e6430a0688a7.jpeg

3976D7A4-F445-435C-8CD9-E2BE96B10B3B.thumb.jpeg.5b6a9e2ebbd66c47c317a3990ebb14ef.jpeg

There are also agate burnishers.  I would say its just as much about dressing the burnisher to a sharp edge, a square edge or an appropriate radius to suit the pivot being worked. As it is about the material. Steel has the added advantage of being dressed as needed and then hardened. Stones and jewelled files much more difficult to shape to a fine sharp edge. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/24/2022 at 1:42 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

The Vallorbe tbh looks like it has a slightly finer grain to it but more random as opposed  to the uniform grain of the bergeon.This maybe gives the vallorbe a more aggresives cut. What magnification are we looking at here watchie ?

The measurements for the Bergeon burnisher are 44x5x2 mm.

The measurements for the Vallorbe burnisher are 60x5x3 mm. (same for the file).

So the magnification in the images is approx. 12x (depending on your screen resolution)

On 9/24/2022 at 7:40 PM, nickelsilver said:

They do compress the metal, but they also remove some metal, that's the "black stuff" on the burnisher after some strokes.

Ah, so that's what the black stuff is! I continually wipe it off from the burnisher with a piece of Rodico as I go and then re-oil the pivot (still using Moebius 9010, but will eventually try with some lavender oil).

On 9/24/2022 at 7:40 PM, nickelsilver said:

The Bergeons are pretty spot on right out of the box.

And that's why I decided to get it. There's so much to learn about servicing and repairing that once in a while it is worth the money not having to learn how to perfect the tools as well. If you're a pro that could be a different story but for an enthusiast like me buying a tool that's ready to use right out of the box makes a lot of sense.

Looking at the pictures I published of the Vallorbe and the Bergeon burnishers, it's obvious that the sharp edges are sharper/more straight on the Bergeon than on the Vallorbe. The sharp edge rests against the pivot shoulder and stabilizes the burnisher. Depending on how parallel you're able to hold and stroke the burnisher against the pivot shoulder, fewer vortex patterns are created on the shoulder. The Bergeon burnisher is doing a better job in this respect.

23 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats some reduction watchie, what was the turn around time for doing this ?

It doesn't take long at all (15-20 min?) What you do is place the pivot in a pivot bed on the Jacot tool being perhaps 2/100 mm smaller than the pivot, oil the pivot, burnish it, which doesn't require that many strokes (perhaps 20 to 40), and then wipe off the "black goo" on the burnisher, move the pivot to the next pivot bed being 2/100 mm smaller than the previous, and repeat the process until you reach the desired pivot diameter.

The good thing with the Jacot tool is that you don't have to worry (much) about the pressure of the burnisher or how many strokes you take on the pivot as the pivot bed protects the pivot once the pivot has reached the diameter of the pivot bed. What needs to be practised is moving the burnisher in long strokes in a "good tempo", which can be quite difficult to do when you're new. I believe @nickelsilvereither saw or experienced the teacher in watch school smack the fingers of the student doing too short strokes on the Jacot 😬. I practised on quite a few Vostok scrap train wheels before I didn't on the wheel that mattered to me (an Omega cal 268).

In the beginning, I was finding it difficult to hold the edge of the burnisher against the pivot shoulder. Repeatedly, the burnisher would slide up on the arbor and grind it down in no time. Yikes!

23 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Tough hard outer shell with a softer center ( like me 😉 )

Ha-ha

21 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hope you feel better soon mate. Take good care of yourself. The discussion will still be here when you are ready to come back and join in. 

Thanks!

16 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

They cut, they compress, they harden.

A short, concise and excellent summary!

15 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Depending on how long you want to spend on making a burnisher, it may actually be cheaper to buy a ready made Bergeon one.

Yes, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if you're right about that. And yes, the Bergeon is IMO the way to go.

Edited by VWatchie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

The measurements for the Bergeon burnisher are 44x5x2 mm.

The measurements for the Vallorbe burnisher are 60x5x3 mm. (same for the file).

So the magnification in the images is approx. 12x (depending on your screen resolution)

Ah, so that's what the black stuff is! I continually wipe it off from the burnisher with a piece of Rodico as I go and then re-oil the pivot (still using Moebius 9010, but will eventually try with some lavender oil).

And that's why I decided to get it. There's so much to learn about servicing and repairing that once in a while it is worth the money not having to learn how to perfect the tools as well. If you're a pro that could be a different story but for an enthusiast like me buying a tool that's ready to use right out of the box makes a lot of sense.

Looking at the pictures I published of the Vallorbe and the Bergeon burnishers, it's obvious that the sharp edges are sharper/more straight on the Bergeon than on the Vallorbe. The sharp edge rests against the pivot shoulder and stabilizes the burnisher. Depending on how parallel you're able to hold and stroke the burnisher against the pivot shoulder, fewer vortex patterns are created on the shoulder. The Bergeon burnisher is doing a better job in this respect.

It doesn't take long at all (15-20 min?) What you do is place the pivot in a pivot bed on the Jacot tool being perhaps 2/100 mm smaller than the pivot, oil the pivot, burnish it, which doesn't require that many strokes (perhaps 20 to 40), and then wipe off the "black goo" on the burnisher, move the pivot to the next pivot bed being 2/100 mm smaller than the previous, and repeat the process until you reach the desired pivot diameter.

The good thing with the Jacot tool is that you don't have to worry (much) about the pressure of the burnisher or how many strokes you take on the pivot as the pivot bed protects the pivot once the pivot has reached the diameter of the pivot bed. What needs to be practised is moving the burnisher in long strokes in a "good tempo", which can be quite difficult to do when you're new. I believe @nickelsilvereither saw or experienced the teacher in watch school smack the fingers of the student doing too short strokes on the Jacot 😬. I practised on quite a few Vostok scrap train wheels before I didn't on the wheel that mattered to me (an Omega cal 268).

In the beginning, I was finding it difficult to hold the edge of the burnisher against the pivot shoulder. Repeatedly, the burnisher would slide up on the arbor and grind it down in no time. Yikes!

Ha-ha

Thanks!

A short, concise and excellent summary!

Yes, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if you're right about that. And yes, the Bergeon is IMO the way to go.

It seems you are feeling better watchie, good. Thanks for the info. I may well buy one when I've had a little play, the price isn't too bad if the Bergeon has a good life span. If Nickelsilver wouldn't mind answering if the Bergeon ever needs to be restored from any wear ? What method do you use watchie to drive the jacot pulley ? A bow ? I have seen a retractable line being used which looks a bit easier also i was thinking of rigging up a small dc low rpm motor to free up both hands to help place and steady the burnisher. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, nice long strokes of both burnisher and bow!

 

On the texture thing, just the last few days I was doing some special barrel arbors for a client. Drawing specs roulage on the diameters that contact the barrel as well as pivots (+-2 micron tolerance haha). Roulage is the same as Jacot but with a wheel rather than straight burnisher- and I have a roulage machine, basically an industrial Pivofix, with a variety of wheels. The drawing calls out 1.70mm pre-roulage, 1.69 +- 0.002mm post. With my fine wheel- and this is a motorized machine- I could get about 5 microns off but no more. Finish was mirror though. With a rougher wheel no problem to take off as much as I wanted; finish was equal to other high grade arbors I've seen, but not perfect mirror. Client is a maniac and will complain if not "perfect".

 

After a lot of messing around I went with rough wheel, then quick hit in the lathe with wood and polishing paste to give them the shininess they want. 15 pieces total; started with 25, ended with 17 hahaha.

 

But you can really hit microns with that machine  (and with a Jacot tool). Trick is measuring that. Pic is of an arbor in a Cary indicating micrometet set to 1.69mm. Graduations are microns.

20220925_103156.jpg

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If Nickelsilver wouldn't mind answering if the Bergeon ever needs to be restored from any wear ?

Everything wears, so eventually, I guess it will need to be restored. Now, I've only used my Bergeon burnisher to work on perhaps about a bit less than 100 pivots (practice included), and I can't detect any wear whatsoever. Anyway, I'd be very interested to see @nickelsilver's reply as well (I think it's in already, as I type!)

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What method do you use watchie to drive the jacot pulley ?

I would like to have a bow but haven't found any yet. In the meantime, I've been using a retractable line (keyring yoyo). The ones having a line made of fabric seem to work the best.

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i was thinking of rigging up a small dc low rpm motor to free up both hands to help place and steady the burnisher. 

Not sure, but I think you need to burnish the pivot in both directions, back and forth. Of course, a motor wouldn't do that, but perhaps it's a good idea, I wouldn't really know.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was in school we had a guest teacher (who became my main mentor) who had worked in Switzerland with the likes of Dufour and Derek Pratt. He was a  major fan of using a piece of elastic from the sewing shop attached to the back of the bench, with a bit of around 7-10lb test fishing line at the end to go around the pulley, with a simple split keyring at the end to drive the Jacot. Sounds pretty much like what VW has.

 

I like that method, but ended up needing to be more mobile with my Jacot work around the shop for a couple years and just got used to a bow. Either works great

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Everything wears, so eventually, I guess it will need to be restored. Now, I've only used my Bergeon burnisher to work on perhaps about a bit less than 100 pivots (practice included), and I can't detect any wear whatsoever. Anyway, I'd be very interested to see @nickelsilver's reply as well (I think it's in already, as I type!)

I would like to have a bow but haven't found any yet. In the meantime, I've been using a retractable line (keyring yoyo). The ones having a line made of fabric seem to work the best.

Not sure, but I think you need to burnish the pivot in both directions, back and forth. Of course, a motor wouldn't do that, but perhaps it's a good idea, I wouldn't really know.

👍 I think you are right burnishing in both directions may even out the surface better . Dragging the surface in one direction only may give the pivot a different finish. Now I'm wondering if the pivoting machines use both direction. I've found this one made by junghans.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115534361435?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=pLbdQDSpSL-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=tBiLZaCfRb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

👍 I think you are right burnishing in both directions may even out the surface better . Dragging the surface in one direction only may give the pivot a different finish. Now I'm wondering if the pivoting machines use both direction. I've found this one made by junghans.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115534361435?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=pLbdQDSpSL-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=tBiLZaCfRb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Sorry not junghans, i cant find that one.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/25/2022 at 6:12 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would still like to try though with a bit of tool making experimentation before i shell out over a hundred notes

I just thought of a method of making a pivot burnisher which might be easier than the method described by de Carle.

I already have all the necessary tools. It's the same method for making the square section of a winding stem.

The rectangular/square rod can be clamped into a 4 jaw chuck on the lathe and the filing rest adjusted to just graze and roughen/smoothen the carbide rod. The filing rest would keep the surface of the metal flat.

A very rough diamond file should be able to gjve the correct grain texture of the rough end.

For the smooth end, probably a #1000 or higher diamond file would give a nice surface.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/28/2022 at 9:15 PM, HectorLooi said:

I just thought of a method of making a pivot burnisher which might be easier than the method described by de Carle.

I already have all the necessary tools. It's the same method for making the square section of a winding stem.

The rectangular/square rod can be clamped into a 4 jaw chuck on the lathe and the filing rest adjusted to just graze and roughen/smoothen the carbide rod. The filing rest would keep the surface of the metal flat.

A very rough diamond file should be able to gjve the correct grain texture of the rough end.

For the smooth end, probably a #1000 or higher diamond file would give a nice surface.

Wouldn’t you still have to temper the steel? Also, where do you get your steel from? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Wouldn’t you still have to temper the steel? Also, where do you get your steel from? 

I get these from AliExpress. They are already prehardened.

SG$ 13.93 | 2MM CNC Lathe Super hard HSS Rectangular Cutting Tool Bits Bar 2mm x 16mm x 200mm High Speed Steel Boring Bar Fly Cutt
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mNIvkGk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • So i've been trying to source a bellmatic dial for some time that's compatible with the bellmatic i own and theres a handful on ebay but none appear to be compatible. Ebay japan doesn't even let me look at listings but i've heard of various ebay like sites in japan where users sell things and it seems like seiko parts like that would be a lot easier to find in japan. I'm not looking for a watch parts specific place but just a place where people in japan would sell watches to each other and parts and that sort of thing among whatever else they want to sell. the phillipines and thailand also seem to be a pretty rich place to find seiko parts so if there's a market in those places i could search too that anybody knows of that might work also. I've heard of a few over the years but i can't remember the names of any of them. Any help would be appreciated.
    • Thanks! You learn something new every day. I wasn't sure about the difference between a beat and an oscillation. So good to know. 2 beats = 1 oscillation.  I sure will. It's going to be interesting. So far I've turned the balance near 300° before letting it go and on a really healthy balance it has been swinging for about 70-90 seconds in the horizontal positions. Anyway, when doing the test, I'll only swing it 180°. I will be surprised to see it swing for only 25 seconds or less, but we shall see. That could be because I've never tried to count oscillations and only assumed it would be impossible or difficult. Anyway, let's see when I get a chance, hopefully in a month or so as I'm still on vacation and far, very far, from a workbench. Here's Kalle Slaap doing the kind of test that I do (start at 12:30). An interesting observation is that when Kalle starts the balance towards the end of the video at 14:40, it oscillates for about 50 seconds before the video ends. It is difficult to judge whether the balance swings more than 180° at the start, but it looks like it could be close to 180°.  
    • Thanks for the comments I ‘ll pay attention to both points. 
    • I noticed at 0:25 the balance stops because it touches the movement holder. Be aware of that, because if you tighten down the movement holder and something is contacting the balance, you're going to have a Bad Day. When you remove the setting lever spring, I've found it's helpful to loosen the screw a couple turns, then lift the arm of the spring off the setting lever to relieve tension on the spring. I do the same thing for installation--get the screw started, then put the spring arm over the post on the setting lever. Otherwise looks okay to my amateur eyes.
    • Welcome @MartinF! Nice to see more Scandinavians. I myself live in Sweden but have Denmark in my heart. I couldn't agree more. Never use force. Get a bigger hammer! 😉
×
×
  • Create New...