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Hi, just wondering if anyone has used the Bergeon pivot polishing tool. Did you use with or without diamantine? How long did it take to round the pivot? Do you rotate the tool or rotate the pivot in the tool? What amplitude and rate changes did you experience from using it. All help appreciated. Steve 

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41 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

Hi, just wondering if anyone has used the Bergeon pivot polishing tool. Did you use with or without diamantine? How long did it take to round the pivot? Do you rotate the tool or rotate the pivot in the tool? What amplitude and rate changes did you experience from using it. All help appreciated. Steve 

Pictures matey. Lots and lots of pictures. You know we all love tools 👍

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42 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

Hi, Have you used one yourself? Any tips or pointers? Steve.

Yes, I just oil it and twirl it around while nutating a bit (not simply holding it vertically over the pivot). Mine is ancient, no idea if the new ones are as good/better  or what, but I imagine the new ones are fine. I rarely use it though- if I need to retouch a pivot I do it in the lathe. But it does work.

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Love it, learnt a new word 'Nutating'. Thanks for the help. Is it a quick operation? How long would you typically twirl for to go from flat to a nice dome? Are we talking 20 mins or less than a minute? I'm going to get one you see as I don't have a lathe or jacot. Thanks, Steve.

Edited by steve1811uk
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It's around 10 seconds I guess? Very fast. Maybe less than 10 seconds. But depends on how you use it, pressure, twirl speed, etc. I would try it on a scrap balance first for sure. If you have a really fine Arkansas stone you can make it flat, dome it, make it flat, dome it, until you're comfortable.

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I have never used one but I think it is to shape the end of a balance staff which should be slightly rounded. Having said that it looks a bit of a risk because it’s so easy to snap the end off the pivot. All that work to be destroyed  at the last hurdle..😏

Edited by clockboy
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25 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It's around 10 seconds I guess? Very fast. Maybe less than 10 seconds. But depends on how you use it, pressure, twirl speed, etc. I would try it on a scrap balance first for sure. If you have a really fine Arkansas stone you can make it flat, dome it, make it flat, dome it, until you're comfortable.

Thanks, looking forward to giving that a go.

This is one of the pivots that I want to address. Would you say that it is too flat?

Screenshot_20220922-195832.png

IMG_20220922_195411276_HDR~2.jpg

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That looks pretty flat. But there's a lot of nuance between flat (true flat happens in labs and is still a percentage of "flat"); then round- rounded or a radius based on the diameter of the pivot? That'd be really round. There's a happy medium and the Bergeon tool hits it pretty well.

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I have one and have used it - I found it very time consuming and like others have said, better/faster results on a lathe considering that the steel should be burnished anyway once shaped.

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1 hour ago, Mark said:

I have one and have used it - I found it very time consuming and like others have said, better/faster results on a lathe considering that the steel should be burnished anyway once shaped.

Not yet having a lathe, could a Jacot tool be an option? So far I have only used my Jacot tool to burnish train wheels but I'm pretty sure I saw or heard someone mentioning rounding balance staffs.

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1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Not yet having a lathe, could a Jacot tool be an option? So far I have only used my Jacot tool to burnish train wheels but I'm pretty sure I saw or heard someone mentioning rounding balance staffs.

Yes mate. Ive seen it on you tube and read it in books as well. The opposite side of the jacot lantern to the burnishing end that reduces the pivot diameter. I'm same as you, received a jacot last week along with a load of extras I'll post it up later to get your opinion. l also have another one different make coming soon as well as a repivoting tool. 

16639230254202138280380189054560.jpg

16639231046006451362269397985586.jpg

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2 hours ago, Mark said:

I have one and have used it - I found it very time consuming and like others have said, better/faster results on a lathe considering that the steel should be burnished anyway once shaped.

How much pressure is necessary to burnish a small pivot, like a 0.15 mm balance pivot? I'm used to burnishing clock pivots and I'm sure it doesn't require that much force.

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13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Yes mate. Ive seen it on you tube and read it in books as well. The opposite side of the jacot lantern to the burnishing end that reduces the pivot diameter. I'm same as you, received a jacot last week along with a load of extras I'll post it up later to get your opinion. l also have another one different make coming soon as well as a repivoting tool. 

16639230254202138280380189054560.jpg

16639231046006451362269397985586.jpg

What a bizarre coincidence, the second one was popped through my letterbox as i posted those photos. The second one is a WIT brand, newer and better quality.  Also has 2 extra doofers ( dont know what they are yet )

 

16639236877432705437981243980869.jpg

1663923955670161087135334253166.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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32 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Those are lathe dogs. They are used to transmit motion to a piece of work being turned between centres.

Oooooo!!!!!!   So the long end goes between the forked fingers of the pulley?  For, like, turning shafts that don't have a spoked wheel attached?   I need some of those!   Or I need to MAKE some of those!  Thank you @HectorLooifor explaining!

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3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Not yet having a lathe, could a Jacot tool be an option? So far I have only used my Jacot tool to burnish train wheels but I'm pretty sure I saw or heard someone mentioning rounding balance staffs.

As others have already stated, yes absolutely. It’s one of the primary functions of the Jacot tool which allows you to burnish a kind of polished hard skin onto the surface of the pivot after shaping which in turn makes the pivot more durable. The lantern is used for this purpose - if you have a dual purpose pivot file/burnisher you can shape and burnish within a few strokes. It’s doesn’t take much. 

By the way - anyone considering buying a Jacot set should look closely at the lantern or lanterns in the listing pictures before buying. They are often broke. A friend of mine had to buy (and send back) three sets before he actually found a good set. Some sellers attempt to hide the broken lantern in the listing images and if you’ve never used one before you might not realise until too late. 

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I had that tool, not Bergeon branded, for many years in my drawer. Never used it, never trusted it.
The jewel in the tool looks like in my picture on top.
Yesterday I made a test: flattened a pivot (1) then applied the tool like N described. Result was pivot (2): edges rounded, burrs produced! My suspicion was valid.

Pivot_tool.jpg.3789c10e32ff89a3adb70d78db039e14.jpg

Rounding is so easy and fast the traditional way: balance in the lathe or in the jacot like above and a "burnisher for rounding pivot-ends" (quote Bergeon).

Frank

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3 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Those are lathe dogs. They are used to transmit motion to a piece of work being turned between centres.

Thanks HectorLooi 👍, I've seen them in job lot sales, nice extra little bonus with my purchase.

1 hour ago, Mark said:

By the way - anyone considering buying a Jacot set should look closely at the lantern or lanterns in the listing pictures before buying. They are often broke. A friend of mine had to buy (and send back) three sets before he actually found a good set. Some sellers attempt to hide the broken lantern in the listing images and if you’ve never used one before you might not realise until too late. 

Absolutely dont get duped. The first one i bought did have damage on the smallest  pivot lantern which is understandable with it being the most used. I did know as i asked to see the ends so the seller reduced the price by quite a lot, that I couldnt turn down plus it had other goodies with it. The second one is absolutely perfect and was actually cheaper than the first by a few quid. Looking forward to using it as soon as i find a burnishing tool. I was thinking of just making something from some tool steel, possible a hardened blade of some description. 

1 hour ago, praezis said:

I had that tool, not Bergeon branded, for many years in my drawer. Never used it, never trusted it.
The jewel in the tool looks like in my picture on top.
Yesterday I made a test: flattened a pivot (1) then applied the tool like N described. Result was pivot (2): edges rounded, burrs produced! My suspicion was valid.

Pivot_tool.jpg.3789c10e32ff89a3adb70d78db039e14.jpg

Rounding is so easy and fast the traditional way: balance in the lathe or in the jacot like above and a "burnisher for rounding pivot-ends" (quote Bergeon).

Frank

How would the v shaped jewel ever produce anything but no. 2. ? 

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1 hour ago, praezis said:

I had that tool, not Bergeon branded, for many years in my drawer. Never used it, never trusted it.
The jewel in the tool looks like in my picture on top.
Yesterday I made a test: flattened a pivot (1) then applied the tool like N described. Result was pivot (2): edges rounded, burrs produced! My suspicion was valid.

Pivot_tool.jpg.3789c10e32ff89a3adb70d78db039e14.jpg

Rounding is so easy and fast the traditional way: balance in the lathe or in the jacot like above and a "burnisher for rounding pivot-ends" (quote Bergeon).

Frank

Hi Frank, appreciate your testing. Just wonder was it a wrist watch balance staff pivot or something larger?

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33 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

Hi Frank, appreciate your testing. Just wonder was it a wrist watch balance staff pivot or something larger?

It was a new commercial Swiss made balance staff, pivot diameter 0.11 mm.

Frank

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5 hours ago, steve1811uk said:

Thanks Frank, my tool arrived today. I will give it a try later and post results.

Well, I am not sure if the tool did anything after 30 minutes of trying, hard to tell for sure. I used oil on its own initially for about 10 seconds and then inspected under the microscope. What I saw was what I thought were perfectly rounded pivots, I was so happy with the Miracle tool, but that turned out to be droplets of oil on the ends of the still flat pivots :(.

I persevered a bit more and added some rouge in oil and gave up after about 30 minutes. I'm going to try and contact Bergeon for advice on how to use it as some people have suggested that diamantine in oil is required and that it does work.

IMG_20220923_203019708.jpg

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