Shock type - AS 1686

[SpringMangler]

Busy repairing and servicing a Nivada Compensamatic with the AS 1686 movement. All of the references I can find on the movement show a lyre shaped Incabloc spring for both top and bottom of the balance, including the very well documented Vulcain service on this site. This one is different.

 

The top spring looks very much like a KIF Trior, but the bottom mount is significantly smaller with what looks like a different spring. I've tried to get some detail on the attached images but was having to hand hold. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by SpringMangler
test edit

[mikepilk]

Very strange !  The following is from BestFit - at it says, the ones with 3 arms are the hardest to identify 

I can't see how you disassemble the top spring?  I had a similar spring in a FHF, but these were designed for money saving and not meant for disassembly. This is obviously a better quality movement - cap jewel on escape wheel.

[grsnovi]

27 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I can't see how you disassemble the top spring?

Look closely at the top image and you'll see there is in fact a cut out to allow the lifting of each of the three points.

 

[mikepilk]

32 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Look closely at the top image and you'll see there is in fact a cut out to allow the lifting of each of the three points.

Well spotted. I didn't se it in the shadow.

I've no idea what the lower shock is, or why it's so different to the top !

The AS 1686 is the same as the Standard 1686, and Bestfit lists many different shock jewels for this movement.

Edited September 14, 2022 by mikepilk

[SpringMangler]

Thanks for the input gents. I had spotted the small cutout on the top mounting so it looks like a modified piece of pegwood might do the trick.  Looking at the bottom spring there appears to be three notches as marked below, but these are hard to spot even through a loupe. Looks like it'll be hard to remove but is going to be extremely difficult to put back.

[mikepilk]

I have the benefit of working under a microscope. It really helps with this type of work.

[SpringMangler]

23 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I have the benefit of working under a microscope. It really helps with this type of work.

It's something I have to seriously look into, pardon the pun, as I sometimes battle with a loupe and varifocals. I have tried just wearing reading specs with a loupe but then cannot see anything beyond the end of my arms. 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by SpringMangler

[mikepilk]

22 minutes ago, SpringMangler said:

It's something I have to seriously look into, pardon the pun, as I sometimes battle with a loupe and varifocals. I have tried just wearing reading specs with a loupe but then cannot see anything beyond the end of my arms. 

If you can, it's a game changer. I do everything under the microscope. I don't know how people can tweak hairsprings using a loupe - your head has to be where your tweezers need to be.

[Kalanag]

1 hour ago, SpringMangler said:

…Looking at the bottom spring there appears to be three notches as marked below, but these are hard to spot even through a loupe. Looks like it'll be hard to remove but is going to be extremely difficult to put back.

I personally would not try to disassemble this setting! Clean it as it is and oil through the jewel hole.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Kalanag

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, SpringMangler said:

Thanks for the input gents. I had spotted the small cutout on the top mounting so it looks like a modified piece of pegwood might do the trick.  Looking at the bottom spring there appears to be three notches as marked below, but these are hard to spot even through a loupe. Looks like it'll be hard to remove but is going to be extremely difficult to put back.

The spring shape is probably like the top, with arms that line up with the 3 slots when turned.

It will need to come apart for cleaning. Try turning it with some pegwood and see what happens !

Post a pic

 

[Kalanag]

13 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

…It will need to come apart for cleaning…

There are jewel settings („combined bushings“) which are not meant to be disassembled (as in my JLC 889).

Edited September 15, 2022 by Kalanag

[mikepilk]

14 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

There are jewel settings („combined bushings“) which are not meant to be disassembled (as in my JLC 889).

 

I assume these are for the gear train as there's no shock protection ?

How do you clean them?

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, SpringMangler said:

Thanks for the input gents. I had spotted the small cutout on the top mounting so it looks like a modified piece of pegwood might do the trick.  Looking at the bottom spring there appears to be three notches as marked below, but these are hard to spot even through a loupe. Looks like it'll be hard to remove but is going to be extremely difficult to put back.

Yes mate. They are an absolute pain and so tiny.  The first one i did I lost twice trying to fit it with tweezers which is virtually impossible.  A recessed end of a toothpick did sort it though. Gauging the size to shape the toothpick took a little while. It needs to just fit the 3 spring arms to press them down and get them all started in the setting slots. Then you may have to ease them round with a couple of finely dressed oilers. Great fun

[mikepilk]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

....  just fit the 3 spring arms to press them down and get them all started in the setting slots. Then you may have to ease them round with a couple of finely dressed oilers. Great fun

Presumably you too need 3 arms to achieve this 

What poor design to make a part so difficult to fit 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Kalanag said:

I personally would not try to disassemble this setting! Clean it as it is and oil through the jewel hole.

Haha. Aw and miss so much fun.

14 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Presumably you too need 3 arms to achieve this 

What poor design to make a part so difficult to fit 

Haha. Yes mike if you try to do it with 3 seperate tools. My first attempts were with one pair of tweezers at the correct spacing to hit 2 of the arms and another pair to deal with the other arm. I was failing miserably for over half an hour with 2 temporary disappearances. Resided to making the wooden tool which took just 2 trys to install the spring. I do have the correct brass version of the tool now.  Yep i agree a poor design, common in small  70's Oris

[SpringMangler]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll tackle the top one first and see how I get on. I was thinking of taking Kalanag's advice and attempting to clean and lubricate the bottom mounting in situ for now, whilst appreciating that it won't be thoroughly cleaned in the same way as removing. Think there was a similar discussion around some Seiko mountings recently.

Anyway, good job there's no swear jar nearby as I'd be skint by now.

Edited September 15, 2022 by SpringMangler
Can't spell

[Neverenoughwatches]

43 minutes ago, SpringMangler said:

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll tackle the top one first and see how I get on. I was thinking of taking Kalanag's advice and attempting to clean and lubricate the bottom mounting in situ for now, whilst appreciating that it won't be thoroughly cleaned in the same way as removing. Think there was a similar discussion around some Seiko mountings recently.

Anyway, good job there's no swear jar nearby as I'd be skint by now.

Lol. Which is why i have permanently empty pockets  

[Kalanag]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I assume these are for the gear train as there's no shock protection ?

How do you clean them?

Right! It‘s made by Incabloc S.A. and used for the escape wheel of the JLC 889. You have to rely on the power of your cleaning machine and cleaning fluid. This could be one reason why watchmakers don‘t like the JLC 889 and its siblings so much 

[SpringMangler]

34 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Lol. Which is why i have permanently empty pockets  

Same here. A combination of swearing and watch tools.

[mikepilk]

The same argument as the small Diashock - can they be cleaned properly without disassembly. I think that, as long as there isn't "baked on" crusty oil, using proper cleaning fluids in a heated ultrasonic will clean OK (?). Though I always disassemble  where possible. 

I'm surprised a company like JLC will use them on escape wheels. I looked on the Incabloc website but no info on cleaning.

Edited September 15, 2022 by mikepilk

[SpringMangler]

I'll give it a try Mike. I'll be picking up a working Elma cleaner in the next couple of weeks so will see how that works out. Could really do with a microscope to check, but the other half may be removing body appendages if I spend any more money this month.

[SpringMangler]

I finally got around to servicing this movement today. Since the original post I've acquired a stereo microscope which has made all of the difference and given me a lot more confidence.

I decided to get stuck into the balance jewels and they were surprisingly easy to remove, but very strange.

The shock spring, both top and bottom, is integrated into a type of chaton/jewel, so no separate spring. The bottom fitting is a two legged affair and the top one has three legs. The jewel that would normally sit against the spring in an Inca type setting sits directly on the pivot with the rounded side facing up against the flat face of the shock/chaton/jewel fitting. I did try putting flat face to flat face but it stopped the balance.

I would have taken photos but was too busy swearing trying to work out which part to oil and which way up each part went.

All back together now and running well. 

 

[Nucejoe]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:36 PM, Kalanag said:

I personally would not try to disassemble this setting! Clean it as it is and oil through the jewel hole.

So you just hope the jewels are in good shape?   

Is observing the freely turning balance test conclusive? 

Rgds

 

[JohnFrum]

[Nucejoe]

Some watch manufaturer own their shock system which usually are made in- house. 

Brands  who buy movements from others , have choice of shock systems and order what they want, often to be or look distinguished. 

As far as I am concerned, any shock spring thats easy to unlock& re lock and doesn't fly is good.