jewel How much of this jewel setting do i replace?

[signcarver]

This is for my Waltham 1883 pocket watch.

I watched videos on jewel replacement and i'm more confused now than when i started.

The jewel in question is for the bottom pivot of the pallet fork. The jewel is shattered but still in the setting.

Do i just replace the jewel?

Do i replace the entire setting including the metal?

Thank you all for your help!

The pictures below show the jewel from the top of the plate, and then from the bottom of the plate, marked with blue marker.

[grsnovi]

I'm not sure where you're going to find one but Waltham originally used both garnet and ruby jewels in that position. Here is a capture from the C & E Marshall and Company (MARCO # 52):

 

[signcarver]

Thank you grsnovi. I will start searching.

[oldhippy]

You need to replace the jewel. Good luck in finding one. 

[Kalanag]

These are rubbed-in jewels! They are not friction press fit. They are held by rubbing excess metal over and require special tooling. The shape of these jewels is not cylindrical but resemble a flying saucer.

(see: MAINTAINING AND REPAIRING Mechanical Watches by Mark W. Wiles)

Edited September 13, 2022 by Kalanag

[dadistic]

Mark has a short tutorial about dealing with rubbed in jewels.

 

[Kalanag]

This video is even more useful for the issue discussed in this thread:

 

[signcarver]

Thank you oldhippy, Kalanag, and dadistic for your information and taking the time to reply!

I watched Mark's video and part of J.D.'s video. I previously had watched a few others.

Here's where i am currently. I used my Seitz tool to attempt to push out the jewel. That turned out to be only partly successful. The edges of the jewel remained stuck in the setting. Then, right or wrong, i decided to push out the entire setting. Since my original post, i found this information on the Pocket Watch database. 

I believe i need part 1472 (Pallet jewel, Lower, in Composition Setting, Type F, shown in the aforementioned digitized manual.

Now i have to find one.

Thanks again!

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, signcarver said:

Now i have to find one

You may find that the easiest way to get another will be to find another Waltham 1883 movement and CAREFULLY extract the lower pallet setting.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, signcarver said:

i decided to push out the entire setting.

did the entire setting come out cleanly?

Then as nice as the pocket watch database is sometimes it's nice to have your own catalogs. Here's a older version of a parts catalog

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt/mode/2up

 

 

[signcarver]

4 hours ago, grsnovi said:

You may find that the easiest way to get another will be to find another Waltham 1883 movement and CAREFULLY extract the lower pallet setting.

Thanks, I'm going to try that grsnovi. I did call Cas-Ker and they don't have that particular setting. I also thought i might be able to get just the jewel and replace it and then push the setting back in, but that may be  above my skill level.

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

did the entire setting come out cleanly?

Then as nice as the pocket watch database is sometimes it's nice to have your own catalogs. Here's a older version of a parts catalog

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt/mode/2up

 

 

JohnR725 - yes, the entire setting did come out cleanly.

Also, thank you for the link to the catalog. I downloaded and saved it! 

8 hours ago, Kalanag said:

This video is even more useful for the issue discussed in this thread:

 

Watching it now. So much to learn. Also, MAINTAINING AND REPAIRING Mechanical Watches by Mark W. Wiles looks like a wonderful book... another rabbit hole to go down! I'm really enjoying this craft / hobby/ profession so much. Thanks Kalanag.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, signcarver said:

Cas-Ker and they don't have that particular setting

when you're looking at the Waltham parts catalog even the one that's 100 years old you should come to recognize that the likelihood of finding any of those parts in stock in a material house today is limited to nonexistent. even look at eBay you might find something but typically the things you find a common things like balance staff mainspring. Not saying the jewel won't show up I once saw an assortment of Waltham jewels unset for burnishing in on eBay but that sort of stuff is extremely rare.

10 hours ago, signcarver said:

Seitz tool

do you have the manual for the tool?

[signcarver]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

when you're looking at the Waltham parts catalog even the one that's 100 years old you should come to recognize that the likelihood of finding any of those parts in stock in a material house today is limited to nonexistent. even look at eBay you might find something but typically the things you find a common things like balance staff mainspring. Not saying the jewel won't show up I once saw an assortment of Waltham jewels unset for burnishing in on eBay but that sort of stuff is extremely rare.

do you have the manual for the tool?

Hey JohnR725 - i'm realizing that, as i'm searching for the part now. I saw an assortment of Waltham "footer jewels" on ebay for cheap so i may take a shot at them but i realize the chance one would fit is not good. I also thought i might be able to find the bottom plate itself. 

I was able to download a manual for the Seitz tool.

Thanks!

[JohnR725]

24 minutes ago, signcarver said:

t i might be able to find the bottom plate itself. 

if you look at the parts catalog you will notice a lot of variations in those Waltham watches. There is no guarantee if you get a lower plate that you have a Jewel that you can push out. Fortunately it look like the parts list there is only one Arbor which means typically only one pivot size. 

then there is another option which is replaced with a modern jewel. That can be done in a variety of ways. Some of it depends upon how big the original setting was and how much modification do want to do to the plate?

So for instance providing get a jewel taken off and it has be slightly bigger than the original hole size because ideally digital has to friction in and it's unlikely that the setting size would correspond to the diameter of a modern jewel. Then you'd use the reamer in the jeweling set the open up the whole the correspond to your modern jewel size. Just in case you haven't use the reamers despite what it says about the precisely made in the make the whole the precise size you what it be really careful not to go all the way to the end because sometimes the Hollands up to big and that's a definite issue C want to go almost to the end and try the jewel and try not to break the jewel in the process.

Also it's hinted at the book there is a picture of it they also make brass bushings that you could conceivably fit into the hole and then you open that up with the reamer and put the jewel into that and it would have to modify the main plate providing bushings the right size. Then of course and maybe one of the videos or something up above you can do is make an entire new setting and I was a piece of brass the right diameter with a hole corresponds to the modern jewel and use friction your modern jewel in and push the whole thing into the main plate. But a course that assumes you have a watchmaker's lathe if you start making the setting.

Otherwise a time machine would be good to go back in time the buyer jewel but if you are a time machine I think there's a lot of other more productive things you to do even if you restricted it to horology only just think about all those cheap pocket watches back then

 

[signcarver]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

if you look at the parts catalog you will notice a lot of variations in those Waltham watches. There is no guarantee if you get a lower plate that you have a Jewel that you can push out. Fortunately it look like the parts list there is only one Arbor which means typically only one pivot size. 

then there is another option which is replaced with a modern jewel. That can be done in a variety of ways. Some of it depends upon how big the original setting was and how much modification do want to do to the plate?

So for instance providing get a jewel taken off and it has be slightly bigger than the original hole size because ideally digital has to friction in and it's unlikely that the setting size would correspond to the diameter of a modern jewel. Then you'd use the reamer in the jeweling set the open up the whole the correspond to your modern jewel size. Just in case you haven't use the reamers despite what it says about the precisely made in the make the whole the precise size you what it be really careful not to go all the way to the end because sometimes the Hollands up to big and that's a definite issue C want to go almost to the end and try the jewel and try not to break the jewel in the process.

Also it's hinted at the book there is a picture of it they also make brass bushings that you could conceivably fit into the hole and then you open that up with the reamer and put the jewel into that and it would have to modify the main plate providing bushings the right size. Then of course and maybe one of the videos or something up above you can do is make an entire new setting and I was a piece of brass the right diameter with a hole corresponds to the modern jewel and use friction your modern jewel in and push the whole thing into the main plate. But a course that assumes you have a watchmaker's lathe if you start making the setting.

Otherwise a time machine would be good to go back in time the buyer jewel but if you are a time machine I think there's a lot of other more productive things you to do even if you restricted it to horology only just think about all those cheap pocket watches back then

 

Hey JohnR725,

Thanks for the valuable info. Some excellent options. I was watching J.D. Richard making a brass setting on YouTube. Currently that is not within my skillset, even if i did have a watchmaker's lathe.

However i appreciate your other viable options and i'm leaning toward the time machine... more to follow.

Steve

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, signcarver said:

making a brass setting on YouTube.

this is where the catalog doesn't do the best job but I snipped out a page free you don't need the entire fancy tool you just need the bushings. Providing and that's the catch by the way what is the diameter of your brass setting? So providing it was a standard diameter they make brass bushings. You could friction in the bushing even though that's not the way they show to use it you can friction in the bushing into your plate and then ream the whole out there and then put a jewel in its a way of using a smaller jewel in a large setting. Then if you got carried away with your reaming in your two big developers just start over and put another bushing and but this assumes that the whole is the same size as the standard bushings

but I have used this before if memory serves me it was on a upper pallet fork jewel for an 18 size as because it's really easy to break the 18 size either the pallet whole jewels or the escape wheel jewels because Jeff be extremely careful to have everything in alignment when you're putting the plates together which is why oftentimes will see the tools are cracked from people before you and putting the jewel in the setting acceded worked out quite nicely it wasn't as noticeable as one huge red Ruby jewel on a vintage plate

[signcarver]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

this is where the catalog doesn't do the best job but I snipped out a page free you don't need the entire fancy tool you just need the bushings. Providing and that's the catch by the way what is the diameter of your brass setting? So providing it was a standard diameter they make brass bushings. You could friction in the bushing even though that's not the way they show to use it you can friction in the bushing into your plate and then ream the whole out there and then put a jewel in its a way of using a smaller jewel in a large setting. Then if you got carried away with your reaming in your two big developers just start over and put another bushing and but this assumes that the whole is the same size as the standard bushings

but I have used this before if memory serves me it was on a upper pallet fork jewel for an 18 size as because it's really easy to break the 18 size either the pallet whole jewels or the escape wheel jewels because Jeff be extremely careful to have everything in alignment when you're putting the plates together which is why oftentimes will see the tools are cracked from people before you and putting the jewel in the setting acceded worked out quite nicely it wasn't as noticeable as one huge red Ruby jewel on a vintage plate

Thank you JohnR725 - more great info. I don't have the tool (above) but i have seen J.D. Richard use it in one of his videos. I do have the tool pictured below. I found it tricky to see to center the setting.

[JohnR725]

oh and it did occur to me that the last time I put in jewel in I didn't actually use the tool up above. I think the bushing that I used was a really tiny clock bushing it was the right size to friction and that I opened it up with the regular jeweling tool and pushed in a jewel.

[DaveL]

Try Dave’s watch parts he has old Waltham jewels,good luck

[MechanicMike]

i'm still dealing with this same rubbed in jewel issue on a Hamilton, and am searching for jewel setting tools. were you able to replace it? I had to get a donor movement and am going to attempt to replace it with that jewel.

[signcarver]

11 hours ago, DaveL said:

Try Dave’s watch parts he has old Waltham jewels,good luck

Thanks DaveL - i did. He's on my list of places because i've had luck there before.

9 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

i'm still dealing with this same rubbed in jewel issue on a Hamilton, and am searching for jewel setting tools. were you able to replace it? I had to get a donor movement and am going to attempt to replace it with that jewel.

MechanicMike - no replacement yet. I bough some jewels in settings that looked like they might work but they were too small. I purchased a movement for parts with the hopes of using the entire mainplate but it hasn't arrived yet. More to follow...

[MechanicMike]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:27 AM, signcarver said:

More to follow...

keep me posted...we might be able to help one another.

On 9/28/2022 at 7:27 AM, signcarver said:

More to follow...

September 12 in Shock Settings - Incablock, Diashock - Fitting/Adjusting Jewels, etc..

 

I posted a thread in Shock Settings thread, or rather the mods were nice enough to put it there for me sorry mods! wasn't used to the new forums yet! something might help you in there. I'll post as soon as i can find the tools to do it. dadistic shows a pic of what I'm looking for. I'm following an auction on fleabay that i'm after. 

[signcarver]

Thanks MechanicMike - i'm going to look for your thread in Shock Settings. Appreciate your help. I have another mainplate that i may try to take the jewel from. It's such fiddly work and i'm so new at this, i'm mulling it over.