Mianspring winder set - barrel sizes

[rossjackson01]

Not sure if I have put this in the correct forum.

Can anyone give advice please. I am looking at a Mainspring winding set. What do the sizes indicated on the box. Are they specific movements? They are just numbers. Am I expected to know what company movements fit which number? ETA, Myota, Seiko etc Hope you can help. Regards

Ross

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Not sure if I have put this in the correct forum.

Can anyone give advice please. I am looking at a Mainspring winding set. What do the sizes indicated on the box. Are they specific movements? They are just numbers. Am I expected to know what company movements fit which number? ETA, Myota, Seiko etc Hope you can help. Regards

Ross

I'm no expert Ross but as far as i know the number relates to popular movements.  Ie. 7750  would be the Valjoux 7750.  2892 is Eta, 8500 i think is an Omega. 

[Paul80]

And the 8200 if for the Miyota/Citizen movement but will also do some Seiko, eg the 7009 etc

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm no expert Ross but as far as i know the number relates to popular movements.  Ie. 7750  would be the Valjoux 7750.  2892 is Eta, 8500 i think is an Omega. 

So i guess the thing to do here would be to find out what the inner barrel diameters of these movements are to know what size mainspring winders you are getting before you order them. To see if any fit the watches you are working on or intend to work on. Or work specifically on these watch movements. If they are close undersize then they may fit other movements. A word of warning though i wound a spring into a winder that was a little tight. It went in but there wasnt enough room to unhook the winder arbor. The spring finished up like an overstretched slinky and the pin of the winder got damaged.  This is one reason i refit the spring by hand lol. Also avoid any winders that dont have a steel arbor pin. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[rossjackson01]

Thank you all for the prompt replies. I thought that it may well be as you said. Popular movement numbers but without the movement title. Weird! Surely just putting the diameter of the winder would be more helpful.

As I get deeper into this engrossing hobby, I am finding that a number of specific areas are very demanding in theri knowledge and skill level. 

Disassembling and assembling are skills that can be gained by practice. I am getting there. There are a number of skills that require specialist tools. Many of these are obtainable at an introductory price. Tweezer, screwdrivers, case opening tools, oilers etc. It's hard not to try to get in depth tools that are just needed for basics. Microscope, cleaning machine, timegrapher, mainspring winding set. 

Same as Never.. Only looking at the last item as fingers hurt so much trying to put springs in. Price is still out of my league. Dreaming on.

All I want is to get just one watch working with good amplitude. Have built 7 and all have low amplitude.

Won't stop. Soldiering on.

Ross

Edited September 10, 2022 by rossjackson01
grammar

[Gramham]

4 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you all for the prompt replies. I thought that it may well be as you said. Popular movement numbers but without the movement title. Weird! Surely just putting the diameter of the winder would be more helpful.

As I get deeper into this engrossing hobby, I am finding that a number of specific areas are very demanding in theri knowledge and skill level. 

Disassembling and assembling are skills that can be gained by practice. I am getting there. There are a number of skills that require specialist tools. Many of these are obtainable at an introductory price. Tweezer, screwdrivers, case opening tools, oilers etc. It's hard not to try to get in depth tools that are just needed for basics. Microscope, cleaning machine, timegrapher, mainspring winding set. 

Same as Never.. Only looking at the last item as fingers hurt so much trying to put springs in. Price is still out of my league. Dreaming on.

All I want is to get just one watch working with good amplitude. Have built 7 and all have low amplitude.

Won't stop. Soldiering on.

Ross

Hello @rossjackson01,

You've just hit a wall that all budding Watch Repair Enthusiasts hit.

IMHO, this hobby requires five things:

1) Interest
2) Community
3) Education
4) Tools
5) Practice

For the nascent Watch Repairer, everything gets immediately hampered (and then constantly dragged down) by #4, because you cannot even open most watches to see the insides without specialized tools.  

I believe that this is why a lot of people seriously lose interest or even give up on Watch Repair, fascinating though it may be to them.  The needed tools to set up properly is no joke, and can cost quite a bit of money in the end.  My itemized list  is now approaching 100 items in length.  Consumables alone is about 20 items.  

My personal take is this:  If the hobby is ever going to reach its potential, and for all of those millions of mechanical watches produced in the last 20 years to be serviced, enabling the hobbyist tools arena is where I think a lot more progress needs to be made, so  people can get enough initial exposure to the vocation to determine if it is right for them to eventually pursue as a profession.

Of course, the recent move to bring all repairs "in house" by massive organizations such as SWATCH Group might make the independent Watchmaker a thing of the past.  They now integrate all repairs with a compulsory maintenance cycle and do not give you your parts back.  I first ran into this in 2011 when I brought a TAG Heuer 1500 in because the dial lume was flaking off.  They quoted me on a new dial (different color) but I wouldn't get my old dial back.  Their rules.

With respect to the winders you pictured, the advice you got is good:

A)  This is a cheap Chinese set (but not THAT cheap)
B)  The arbors are made of brass and therefore subject to premature wear and failure
C)  The sizes are not noted in mm but rather by the Caliber number of certain "popular" movements
D)  You may not know this, but Mark reviewed this set (or a similar one) on YouTube, so look it up to see his take

g.

----
 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Gramham
pluralization

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Surely just putting the diameter of the winder would be more helpful.

I would expect so Ross. If i were to buy a set of winders i would choose a generic set that had incremental sizes of .5mm or maybe a little less at the smaller end of the winder  sizes and then a slight increment increase as the sizes got bigger. Just so i covered my bases. I'm guessing this manufacturer is attempting to appeal to fresh amateurs, i suppose a little like buying spanners that would fit Porches and Lamborghinis. A bit gimmicky imo as a pro that works on high end movements  would never touch a set like this.

10 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you all for the prompt replies. I thought that it may well be as you said. Popular movement numbers but without the movement title. Weird! Surely just putting the diameter of the winder would be more helpful.

As I get deeper into this engrossing hobby, I am finding that a number of specific areas are very demanding in theri knowledge and skill level. 

Disassembling and assembling are skills that can be gained by practice. I am getting there. There are a number of skills that require specialist tools. Many of these are obtainable at an introductory price. Tweezer, screwdrivers, case opening tools, oilers etc. It's hard not to try to get in depth tools that are just needed for basics. Microscope, cleaning machine, timegrapher, mainspring winding set. 

Same as Never.. Only looking at the last item as fingers hurt so much trying to put springs in. Price is still out of my league. Dreaming on.

All I want is to get just one watch working with good amplitude. Have built 7 and all have low amplitude.

Won't stop. Soldiering on.

Ross

Hey matey check out the watch on the right of picture 4 at this link. 

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234591030160?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=VYphkhamTOi&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=tBiLZaCfRb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[dadistic]

I never bought a full set of winders until I got the vintage K&D set for pocket watches. I've bought the Bergeon left and right handles, but you can actually do without them if you want. 

I buy the right hand winders with the arbor in the size that I need, and then if I want left in that size I just get the left handed arbor to use with the winder. Still expensive, but not eye wateringly so like buying a set would be.  I get the numbered sizes that are not caliber specific. If I found myself working on a lot of ETA's, for instance, I might get a caliber specific winder, but so far no need.

 

[rossjackson01]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:05 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hey matey check out the watch on the right of picture 4 at this link. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234591030160?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=VYphkhamTOi&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=tBiLZaCfRb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Coulda, shouda, woulda. Thank goodness it had been sold when I looked. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Coulda, shouda, woulda. Thank goodness it had been sold when I looked. 

Lol i thought it pretty cool to have your name on a watch dial. 30 quid though not a bad price for 7 play watches. I have a very unusual surname, in fact me and my son are now the only ones in the blood line to have it in our town of 300 thousand people. And very few in the whole of the Uk. I have found 2 fusee pocket watches both made and marked by a close decendant one of them even has the name on the dial. I have to have them for sure. 

[Kalanag]

Here is all about winder data:

https://bhi.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HJ-Mainspring-Winders.pdf

 

[Paul80]

One thing with the Chinese winders with Brass Arbours, I have had both sets one brass and one steel, but it's often said don't get the brass ones as they could wear out because brass is softer that the steel used in the spring.

Two takes from this, firstly so is the steel used in the steel Arbours so they also could wear. Secondly the spring is only being pulled by the hook on the Arbours for one or two revolutions, it's then gripping the pin and being pulled around by the pin not the hook.

Lastly everyone who says the brass will wear already own the expensive Bergeon set so they would say the cheap set is inferior wouldn't they.  In every post claiming the brass will wear I have seen not one image of a worn Arbour or pin.

Yes steel is better but for occasional use brass will be fine for quite some time, especially now the steel Arbour Chinese sets have arrived, the brass sets have tumbled in price to around £50 to £60 which only get you one Bergeon winder.

[Kalanag]

Good to know: CousinsUK offers single winders from the Chinese sets for £16,50 each. The handle is optional and not necessary imho.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Kalanag

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

One thing with the Chinese winders with Brass Arbours, I have had both sets one brass and one steel, but it's often said don't get the brass ones as they could wear out because brass is softer that the steel used in the spring.

Two takes from this, firstly so is the steel used in the steel Arbours so they also could wear. Secondly the spring is only being pulled by the hook on the Arbours for one or two revolutions, it's then gripping the pin and being pulled around by the pin not the hook.

Lastly everyone who says the brass will wear already own the expensive Bergeon set so they would say the cheap set is inferior wouldn't they.  In every post claiming the brass will wear I have seen not one image of a worn Arbour or pin.

Yes steel is better but for occasional use brass will be fine for quite some time, especially now the steel Arbour Chinese sets have arrived, the brass sets have tumbled in price to around £50 to £60 which only get you one Bergeon winder.

Hi Paul . Would you be able to comment if the brass pin/hook on the arbor is serviceable and or replacable ?

[Kalanag]

That‘s the hook on the Chinese brass arbor:

Edited September 13, 2022 by Kalanag

[rossjackson01]

I purchased a set. Made a silly offer and it was accepted. Looks great, feels great.

However, I do have problem. The inner coil of my mainsprings appears to always be larger than the arbour size in the winder. Therefore, no winder actually connects to the slot in the mainspring. The winder goes round an round and nothing gets pulled into the winder. Is it possible (acceptable) to bend the mainspring at the arbour end and make it smaller to fit. Is that acceptable? I haven't done it as I only have one mainspring and do not wish to damage. 

Andy advice is greatly accepted.

Edited October 22, 2022 by rossjackson01
grammar

[rossjackson01]

Sorry, forgot to add photograph of purchase.

Ross

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

I purchased a set. Made a silly offer and it was accepted. Looks great, feels great.

However, I do have problem. The inner coil of my mainsprings appears to always be larger than the arbour size in the winder. Therefore, no winder actually connects to the slot in the mainspring. The winder goes round an round and nothing gets pulled into the winder. Is it possible (acceptable) to bend the mainspring at the arbour end and make it smaller to fit. Is that acceptable? I haven't done it as I only have one mainspring and do not wish to damage. 

Andy advice is greatly accepted.

Have a little search back Ross mate that same issue was mentioned a few weeks back with some fixes of reducing the inner coil to fit. Carefully was the order of the day. Introduction of heat was mentioned and using round nose pliers to wind around. There was a good hack that worked well if look back.

[Waggy]

Hi there, I know this is an older thread, but I was wondering what to do with the Chinese set of caliber specific winders I purchased back when I was starting, I decided to track down their sizes and see where they fit in with the Bergeon generics. Here is what I found, hopefully someone will find it useful, sorted by diameter and then arbor size:

Edited January 24 by Waggy
Fixed typo

[Kalanag]

47 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Hi there, I know this is an older thread, but I was wondering what to do with the Chinese set of caliber specific winders I purchased back when I was starting, I decided to track down their sizes and see where they fit in with the Bergeon generics. Here is what I found, hopefully someone will find it useful, sorted by diameter and then arbor size:

Thanks for your effort!

Have you seen this and found differences?

https://bhi.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HJ-Mainspring-Winders.pdf

[Waggy]

Updated, including BHI data:

r

[Bonefixer]

Having struggled with a cheap Chinese set of winders I decided to go Swiss and bought some Bergeon, sizes 5,6 and 7 to start with. 
 

Servicing an old Omega, I tried to rewind the mainspring using my new No. 7 - barrel size was right, arbor size seemed ok, but I couldn’t get the hook to catch the hole in the spring. What am I doing wrong? It might be the arbor is a bit small, but next size up would be a No. 9 Bergeon which would be too big for the barrel. 
 

I found this with the Chinese ones - arbor always too small and hook wouldn’t catch. I reverted again to hand winding (which I managed without disaster). I might stick to it in future, or just replace mainsprings. 

[valleyguy]

I'm sure i read on the forum a while back another member had the same problem with a new bergeon winder, he had to do a bit of file work on the arbor, the slope of the arbor at front needed work so the sping would catch on the hook.

From what was said your not doing anything wrong it's the quality or lack of quality of new bergeon winders, some one may remember the post and add a link to it.

[Jon]

10 hours ago, Bonefixer said:

I might stick to it in future, or just replace mainsprings. 

I use winders probably once or twice a year, as I fit a new mainspring as standard. I've got several different sets by different makes, so can usually find an arbor that fits the spring, but not always. The spring can be manipulated with round nose pliers, or use a piece of brass wire/rod and close the inside hook a little around the brass, but sometimes the spring will break if not careful and patient. a little heat can help. The problem when making the hook smaller is that it is then very tight fitting the barrel arbor, so if you rob Peter you have to pay Paul, hence using a new mainspring and side stepping all the faff.