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Balance wheel stops when turning watch upside down


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I am currently working on a watch branded "CITY" which has a quite nice AS 984 caliber inside. The watch runs incredibly well when running it dial side up, however, when turned upside down, the watch immediately stops. The balance wheel is contacting something and suddenly stopping. I noticed I can move the balance pivots about 0,5mm up and down in the cap jewels which I think is quite a lot. Could this be the issue? and if so, do I need new cap jewels or can I fix it by myself?
Perhaps it is something else. The pivots themselves look alright. Perhaps one of the pivots are slightly shortened and needs replacement?

Any help would be greatly appreciated(:
Thanks

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23 minutes ago, BrehmerR said:

I am currently working on a watch branded "CITY" which has a quite nice AS 984 caliber inside. The watch runs incredibly well when running it dial side up, however, when turned upside down, the watch immediately stops. The balance wheel is contacting something and suddenly stopping. I noticed I can move the balance pivots about 0,5mm up and down in the cap jewels which I think is quite a lot. Could this be the issue? and if so, do I need new cap jewels or can I fix it by myself?
Perhaps it is something else. The pivots themselves look alright. Perhaps one of the pivots are slightly shortened and needs replacement?

Any help would be greatly appreciated(:
Thanks

IMG-0269.jpg

IMG-0266.jpg

IMG-0265.jpg

IMG-0263.jpg

Eyup brehmer. Half a mil does seem a lot. Does the bottom pivot worn/short ? The pivot shoulder may be touching the bottom of the balance jewel. You can try a little hack that some use, bit naughty but by spinning the cap jewel over to dome side down . Worth a try to see what effect it has.

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11 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup brehmer. Half a mil does seem a lot. Does the bottom pivot worn/short ? The pivot shoulder may be touching the bottom of the balance jewel. You can try a little hack that some use, bit naughty but by spinning the cap jewel over to dome side down . Worth a try to see what effect it has.

Right, the pivot shoulder is touching the bottom. Although the bottom pivot itself does look in good condition, it is definitely shorter than the top pivot. 
I will give your little tip a try(; 
Otherwise I will have to replace the balance pivot.

Big thanks for that answer!

I will keep you updated

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That's really strange. I have just rebuilt an AS 984 (without Incabloc), and the bottom pivot was too short like yours - not broken, just shorter than the top.

I fitted a new balance staff (they're cheap) but then, when adjusting the hairspring, it broke 😨

I ended up buying a donor movement and using the complete balance. There's plenty around, so it might be an easier option.

Edited by mikepilk
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14 minutes ago, BrehmerR said:

Right, the pivot shoulder is touching the bottom. Although the bottom pivot itself does look in good condition, it is definitely shorter than the top pivot. 
I will give your little tip a try(; 
Otherwise I will have to replace the balance pivot.

Big thanks for that answer!

I will keep you updated

Ok so now just be mindful when lowering the inca spring as its seating environment has now changed from a domed surface to a flat surface. The space around the edge of the spring may be less so dont force it down. This trick was suggested to me here a while back and i did use it once and it worked and the watch is still running. I'm not saying it will work but it can work. Like i said its a bit naughty and the balance is not designed to run this way.

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3 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

That's really strange. I have just rebuilt an AS 984 (without Incabloc), and the bottom pivot was too short like yours - not broken, just shorter than the top.

I fitted a new balance staff (they're cheap) but then, when adjusting the hairspring, it broke 😨

I ended up buying a donor movement and using the complete balance. There's plenty around, so it might be an easier option.

I managed to find a complete balance for just 24 euro so I will probably resort to that if nothing else works.

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28 minutes ago, BrehmerR said:

Right, the pivot shoulder is touching the bottom. Although the bottom pivot itself does look in good condition, it is definitely shorter than the top pivot. 
I will give your little tip a try(; 
Otherwise I will have to replace the balance pivot.

Big thanks for that answer!

I will keep you updated

Replacing the pivot is a tricky job and is something i would like to learn myself. In fact I've just aquired a vintage repivoting tool and a jacot tool is arriving soon. Replacing the staff is probably a better option but you still need a staking set for this. Then as mike has said a balance complete is the easiest plan .

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15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Replacing the pivot is a tricky job and is something i would like to learn myself. In fact I've just aquired a vintage repivoting tool and a jacot tool is arriving soon. Replacing the staff is probably a better option but you still need a staking set for this. Then as mike has said a balance complete is the easiest plan .

I am actually bidding on a really nice staking set at the moment. I guess that will be the deciding factor wether I replace the pivot or get a new balance...

18 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I found a complete balance+cock for about half that price. The balance for the AS 1002 is the same

Where did you find it? Searching all over ebay but I can't seem to find a much cheaper price.

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11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Replacing the pivot is a tricky job and is something i would like to learn myself. In fact I've just aquired a vintage repivoting tool and a jacot tool is arriving soon. Replacing the staff is probably a better option but you still need a staking set for this. Then as mike has said a balance complete is the easiest plan .

Ha . So see everybody i can be serious and actually offer some helpful advice from my tad of knowledge and occasionally get something right 🙄 when i want to. Is it my fault that sometimes someone's comments triggers a flurry of mindless garbage that spews from the soup of idiotic nonsense that swirls around my brain for me to then lay it before your very eyes.  🤔 yep probably my fault. 

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5 minutes ago, BrehmerR said:

I am actually bidding on a really nice staking set at the moment. I guess that will be the deciding factor wether I replace the pivot or get a new balance...

Where did you find it? Searching all over ebay but I can't seem to find a much cheaper price.

Found one!

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8 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Did you manage to win it ,  if so some pictures please.    they dont come cheap for a full set  Favourite, Boley, K&D . getting a complete one  maybe.       

It's an almost complete set (Boley). Bidding is at 140 USD now. Ends soon. I will send some pictures after. 

26 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Did you manage to win it ,  if so some pictures please.    they dont come cheap for a full set  Favourite, Boley, K&D . getting a complete one  maybe.       

Bidding ended on 260 dollars. I bid 250 but was overbid the last second. 260 dollars is a really good price! 1105144477_Screenshot2022-09-09at11_54_17.thumb.png.813eb1b6e4b6fbd284c03cfc99945d37.png

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ok so now just be mindful when lowering the inca spring as its seating environment has now changed from a domed surface to a flat surface. The space around the edge of the spring may be less so dont force it down. This trick was suggested to me here a while back and i did use it once and it worked and the watch is still running. I'm not saying it will work but it can work. Like i said its a bit naughty and the balance is not designed to run this way.

It worked wonders!
I did lose a couple degrees of amplitude but nothing really significant. Huge thanks for the tip! You solved the problem(:

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1 hour ago, BrehmerR said:

I am actually bidding on a really nice staking set at the moment. I guess that will be the deciding factor wether I replace the pivot or get a new balance...

Where did you find it? Searching all over ebay but I can't seem to find a much cheaper price.

Where in the world are you? Also check for people selling parts of movements (AS 1002 parts as well).

You might be able to find a Renata balance - the number is 31

image.png.3e92b9b7cc08f950537dd6168203b6c2.png

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2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I ended up buying a donor movement and using the complete balance. There's plenty around, so it might be an easier option.

2 hours ago, BrehmerR said:

I managed to find a complete balance for just 24 euro so I will probably resort to that if nothing else works.

Swapping parts from "donor" seems to be quite popular.
But there will be no progress with your watchmaking skills if you swap (and make inoperative another watch) instead of chasing the cause of the fault...

Frank

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45 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Where in the world are you? Also check for people selling parts of movements (AS 1002 parts as well).

You might be able to find a Renata balance - the number is 31

image.png.3e92b9b7cc08f950537dd6168203b6c2.png

I found a couple ones priced alright. I don't need a new balance now though since I managed to fix the issue. Do you have the entire table these renata balances? Just to keep for the future.

4 minutes ago, praezis said:

Swapping parts from "donor" seems to be quite popular.
But there will be no progress with your watchmaking skills if you swap (and make inoperative another watch) instead of chasing the cause of the fault...

Frank

I absolutely agree with you and I myself am a little against switching the original parts on a watch. The issue is just that I don't have the correct tools at the moment. I don't have a staking set for example. When I get this, of course I will learn to change the balance pivots and so on. 
But in general, I most certainly agree with you(:

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Shame looked a good set and a Boley too . $260 very good price.  In the early days I had to change balance staffs without a staking tool using a set of punches and a stake. If done very carefully it can be done. At that time I couldn't afford a set but had more successes than failures. Main problem is rim distortion but applying the pricipals of the platax tool and holding the rim and arms flat whilst removing the staff it worked.  good luck.     cheers

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