Very low amplitude

[watchweasol]

Hi Ross. Looks like power loss somewhere, if three balances are exhibiting the same problem it’s more than coincidence. Remove the balance and work backwards remove pallet and check the train freedom. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

o need to do a full strip down and restart?

yes standard operating procedure on this group is if you perceive you're having a problem strip it down to start over again and probably end up where you are now but if it makes you happy you can do that.

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Should I try to get a replacement balance complete again, on my third. already

that would actually fall into the same category as what I just said above definitely get another balance complete definitely will probably end up in the exact same place you are now.

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

I'm pretty sure I know the answer,

if you know the answer you didn't tell us?

watch repair is all about learning and practicing it getting better and hopefully learning from our mistakes like cleaning doesn't fix all problems and apparently replacing the balance complete three times isn't working either.

 

Then yes I'm way past my bedtime so I'm probably a little on the harsh side. How K what to do? How about an image from the timing machine so we can see how bad it looks one dial position on one crown positions like crown down so we have two different things to look at although ideally be nice to have dialed down and dial up and down three would be nice we don't need any more than that and nice picture

picture the balance wheel in the watch would be nice so we can see what that looks like

okay rereading your message again it looks like we are in a broken loop we need to get you out of the broken loop into a new direction. Not sure I quite worded that right but we expect that this time in the morning. When you're putting the train together before you put the pallet fork ended the gear train spin nicely if you start the wind the crown a little bit? If the balance wheel is out he gently push on the pallet fork what does it do which you should have noticed when your lubricating the escapement as you push on it back and forth for at least one turn of the escape wheel as I said you a found this out with lubrication how does it snapped his snap nicely does or seem to be a problem?

Than I probably have to go back and reread the whole discussion the see how we got to this place anyway but how buffer now pictures a timing machine then how about you should go for a nice long walk. We are having problems with something I used to find was doing computer programs that have a feeling does walking down the valley and the walls started moving in on me and they got really really narrow and that's when it's best to walk back out to the starting point reevaluate the situation and go down a new path. But I would take a break before you go down your new path.

 

 

[rossjackson01]

Sorry folks for the rant. You are right of course.  Just feeling depressed with regard to amplitude . Should be much further on. As requested. I am out at the moment.  Will attach photographs on return

Edited March 3, 2023 by rossjackson01
Photographs

[mikepilk]

 deleted

Edited March 3, 2023 by mikepilk

[rossjackson01]

56 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

 deleted

Not sure why you deleted. What ever you said, good or bad, is always constructive and taken in the same context as any information is always a bonus.

Ross

[watchweasol]

Hi Ross just repaired and cleaned a Revue 77.1 from the 70s, dismantled cleaned closed the barrel bridge bearing and re broached. Replaced mainspring with a GR the old one was broken. Reassembled the whole watch put the pallet in , no snap action so down it came again rechecked the bridge endshake and side shake and re assembled again tested the train ok, fitted fork/ pallet still no snap, removed the fork again checked the jewels couldn’t see any thing but decided to put a hogs bristle through the jewel to clean and check again, re fitted fork now got snap action, fitted balance and we have a runner,   Amp 250.   Beat error O.06 ms.   In all it took me two days, walking away pondering the problem and keeping my cool.  As John remarked it can screw you up and you doubt your own self. Do not doubt your own skills the more you do the better it gets and you learn to cope with the problems. Don’t be sorry for the rant, it got it out of your system. Better that than bottling it up.  Best to take the watch to bits again and check it in parts as you do the re build. Mainspring barrel mainspring and work your way out checking as you go. Remember we are here for you so if you feel the need have a rant.     Cheers

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

yes standard operating procedure on this group is if you perceive you're having a problem strip it down to start over again and probably end up where you are now but if it makes you happy you can do that.

that would actually fall into the same category as what I just said above definitely get another balance complete definitely will probably end up in the exact same place you are now.

if you know the answer you didn't tell us?

watch repair is all about learning and practicing it getting better and hopefully learning from our mistakes like cleaning doesn't fix all problems and apparently replacing the balance complete three times isn't working either.

 

Then yes I'm way past my bedtime so I'm probably a little on the harsh side. How K what to do? How about an image from the timing machine so we can see how bad it looks one dial position on one crown positions like crown down so we have two different things to look at although ideally be nice to have dialed down and dial up and down three would be nice we don't need any more than that and nice picture

picture the balance wheel in the watch would be nice so we can see what that looks like

okay rereading your message again it looks like we are in a broken loop we need to get you out of the broken loop into a new direction. Not sure I quite worded that right but we expect that this time in the morning. When you're putting the train together before you put the pallet fork ended the gear train spin nicely if you start the wind the crown a little bit? If the balance wheel is out he gently push on the pallet fork what does it do which you should have noticed when your lubricating the escapement as you push on it back and forth for at least one turn of the escape wheel as I said you a found this out with lubrication how does it snapped his snap nicely does or seem to be a problem?

Than I probably have to go back and reread the whole discussion the see how we got to this place anyway but how buffer now pictures a timing machine then how about you should go for a nice long walk. We are having problems with something I used to find was doing computer programs that have a feeling does walking down the valley and the walls started moving in on me and they got really really narrow and that's when it's best to walk back out to the starting point reevaluate the situation and go down a new path. But I would take a break before you go down your new path.

 

 

John, you have me in awe of your crazy roundabout way of explaining  things that make absolute perfect sense. I thought it was only me that possessed this gift.

4 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Sorry folks for the rant. You are right of course.  Just feeling depressed with regard to amplitude . Should be much further on. As requested. I am out at the moment.  Will attach photographs on return

Lol as John has quite rightly said but in a shortened version, trying to solve a problem in the same manner will give you the same result every time.  At least i think that was the general gist of it. I think John just wants you to pinpoint the problem.  Was John harsh ? Absolutely not, he was just John ❤

31 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Ross just repaired and cleaned a Revue 77.1 from the 70s, dismantled cleaned closed the barrel bridge bearing and re broached. Replaced mainspring with a GR the old one was broken. Reassembled the whole watch put the pallet in , no snap action so down it came again rechecked the bridge endshake and side shake and re assembled again tested the train ok, fitted fork/ pallet still no snap, removed the fork again checked the jewels couldn’t see any thing but decided to put a hogs bristle through the jewel to clean and check again, re fitted fork now got snap action, fitted balance and we have a runner,   Amp 250.   Beat error O.06 ms.   In all it took me two days, walking away pondering the problem and keeping my cool.  As John remarked it can screw you up and you doubt your own self. Do not doubt your own skills the more you do the better it gets and you learn to cope with the problems. Don’t be sorry for the rant, it got it out of your system. Better that than bottling it up.  Best to take the watch to bits again and check it in parts as you do the re build. Mainspring barrel mainspring and work your way out checking as you go. Remember we are here for you so if you feel the need have a rant.     Cheers

Some of the best advice that can be passed on , you are one of our best Mr. Weasol.

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Just feeling depressed with regard to amplitude

I give you the assignment homework assignment find somebody who owns a Rolex watch. Ask them what their current amplitude is pay attention to the app they use on their phone to tell you what it is. Or pay attention as to whether they look at you like you're crazy because most people who have watches are concerned about what the hands are telling them does their watch keep time.

First off we need to understand what the timing machine is telling us. It's telling us that you have a problem with this watch. Usually I like to visually look at the balance wheel what is it doing does it look like it's amplitude sucks? Then unfortunately we don't have artificial intelligent timing machines yet and that's a problem. Because with artificial intelligence may be on the graphical display it would display numeric message and tell us exactly what's wrong with your watch but it doesn't it gives us confusions. If we look at your graphical display we don't quite have a snow globe affect which I believe is a quote from Neverenoughwatches. It's why always ask the see the display if you have a snow globe affect then the numbers are always 100% wrong.

Now the graphical display not a snow globe but not great and they look like they're angling downwards but the  numeric numbers say fast how can it angle down which would normally be slow and the numbers say fast that is a conflict.

By the way do you know how to visually check if the watches in beat without the timing machine?

maybe it's time to start at the beginning what was the condition of the watch like when you received it in the wire what did you perceive was a problem before you mean the watch? In addition to cleaning the watch was there anything else you did like? I see a change is the balance complete several times what did you perceive the problem was with the balance completes? It be nice to get a picture of the balances that you replaced and we need better pictures of the balance currently in the watch.

Then were ending up going into many directions obviously re-cleaning it again isn't going to help and changing the balance complete again is it going to help. Then watch repairs all about a infinite number of directions and choices to go in. Yes I thought I just randomly toss that out while I'm trying to figure out how to solve the problem.

too many directions to go M. I think I did make some suggestions one way up above now I can make some more suggestions. If you remove the balance wheel and the pallet fork preferably without  power in the watch and then you gently start to turn the crown what does the gear train do? Does it start up instantly does it take a little bit of time when it spins doesn't look like it's spinning with hesitation when it comes to a stop does it come to a sudden stop original gradually slow down. It be nice of you figure out with you actually have a power problem or you problem associated with the balance wheel. Or with stuff associated with the balance wheel. This is where the timing machine isn't necessarily helpful on where the problem is.

 

 

[rossjackson01]

I've removed the balance and pallet fork. Wheels spin with the merest of touch.  Hold click back. Move spring barrel back and forth. Escape wheel spins both ways immediately without delay. Place pallet fork and secure. Pressure on the fork and it moves from side to side with a spring. All appears ok. 

I'm sure it's the balances. Must be the way I hold my mouth. It will have to wait now until I get another balance complete. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

I've removed the balance and pallet fork. Wheels spin with the merest of touch.  Hold click back. Move spring barrel back and forth. Escape wheel spins both ways immediately without delay. Place pallet fork and secure. Pressure on the fork and it moves from side to side with a spring. All appears ok. 

I'm sure it's the balances. Must be the way I hold my mouth. It will have to wait now until I get another balance complete. 

Hiya Ross. Can we not find out what is wrong with the balances you have. Can we get some good close ups of the hairsprings. Pick a balance assembly, any. 

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can we not find out what is wrong with the balances you have

excellent plan because if I'm keeping track I believe were currently have three balance completes and now another one that will be for and how many balance completes can you go through until we find the problem? So while you're waiting for your balance complete the come pictures is get some pictures let's see what's going on and by the way it might not be a balance complete issue it could be something else related to the balance wheel.

Oh and by the way how do you lubricate your escapement for instance?

[LittleWatchShop]

Interesting thread.  Gonna throw this out even though I am pretty sure it is not your problem.

I had a low amplitude the other day that was puzzling.  I discovered that it was an extremely tiny strand of some filament...far less than the diameter of a human hair.  Have no clue where it came from.  Had me wishing for laminar flow Class 100 clean room (but it aint gonnna happen).

Another place I look when dealing with amplitude is the planarity of the hairspring and the possibility of rubbing on the arms.  I think others have already covered this.  Sometimes (for me at least) the issue is resolved by changing the height of the hairspring stud relative to the cock.  Not always though.  May I say that I hate Waltham stud system?

Sometime back, someone on this board taught me to install the balance without the pallet fork...give it a puff with your puffer and see how long it oscillates.  That is a good test.  I now do it regularly.  I would expect at least a minute--others may have a different number.

Finally, I have seen significant amplitude improvements with a new mainspring.

Sorry if I have repeated anything someone else said...I did not pour through the whole thread.

Good luck and never give up!!

[JohnR725]

18 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I am pretty sure it is not your problem.

I had a low amplitude the other day that was puzzling.  I discovered that it was an extremely tiny strand of some filament...far less than the diameter of a human hair.  Have no clue where it came from.  Had me wishing for laminar flow Class 100 clean room (but it aint gonnna happen).

where we have an interesting problem here is it's a loop. In other words clean the watch check low amplitude replace balance wheel. Repeat clean the watch and were now on the third balance wheel heading for the number four. With nothing changing which means there's a problem with the procedure somewhere a problem with the troubleshooting procedure and a problem

yes it's amazing where things end up where the not supposed to be. It would be nice to say that this is an isolated incident but I think we've all had this I know I have

20 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Another place I look when dealing with amplitude is the planarity of the hairspring and the possibility of rubbing on the arms.  I think others have already covered this.  Sometimes (for me at least) the issue is resolved by changing the height of the hairspring stud relative to the cock.  Not always though. 

then yes this is one of my biggest concerns here. It's very hard for people relatively new and watch repair and to a certain degree hard for all of us to tell if they hairspring is actually flat and not touching the arms. Or in the case of a watch with over coil it's not touching the upper bridge or somewhere else. It's amazing how much amplitude you can lose if they hairspring is touching something like the arms. Then it's also amazing how fast it would run like the timing machine if we can believe the numbers which we can't.

This is where ideally very careful observation and grasping of what you're observing is extremely important. Then only when I grasping of the problem exists can we try to fix it. Or you can clean it again at another balance complete I wonder if cousins will give you a break if you get 12 of them? It used to be in the old days of your purchase three because parts came in packages a three basically a paid for two in the third one was free but I think those days are long gone and I don't think balance wheels ever came in three packs.

22 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

May I say that I hate Waltham stud system?

yes Waltham studs specifically on vintage Waltham's not modern Swiss Waltham's but vintage. Everything else has a nice hole to go into and here you don't definitely a pain plus throw in the mainspring issue and Waltham is the least favorite watch the water work on.

[LittleWatchShop]

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

in the old days of your purchase three

A little non sequitur here...but I was wondering today about material back in the 60's and 70's.  Could you buy parts for, say, a Waltham Riverside from a material house?  That re-pivot job I posted about earlier...there is no way my Dad could have spent the time to do those kinds of jobs and make enough money to send me, my sister, and my brother to college.

[rossjackson01]

As requested. Photographs of the balances

Balance in the movement. The spring was bend over the stud. Lifted over the stud and the kink Smoothed out. 

Full, not damaged cock, balance is the original. I damaged it by pulling hard, as a newby does.

Balance from donor that had screw seized. Drilled out and cock released. Balance itself seems ok, but I do not have enough skill to remove and place on the other cock.

 

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

but I was wondering today about material back in the 60's and 70's.  Could you buy parts for, say, a Waltham Riverside from a material house?

it probably depended upon the material house. Like for instance one of the material houses in Seattle was started by the grandfather of the woman who runs it now and he is to do watch work and had a heckuva lot of vintage material. Over time had acquired a lot of watch movements so if you needed a vintage part that's where you would go more than likely there other materials like that probably more likely to find them on the East Coast.

Then when I started out in the dark days with no Internet you look in the advertisements the magazines and there are people offering stuff for sale if you purchased it then you'd be on the mailing list and physical flyers and Logs would show up. Quite a few of them purchased surplus material has factories shut down assembly lines to be all kinds a surplus stuff including vintage American watch material. But they also functioned as material houses so in those days to be asked if they would go and look versus today were if it's not online you have to ask really really nicely for them to go look

6 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Photographs of the balances

one of the problems with taking pictures of balance wheels out of the watch is out of the watch that's not where you having the problem. In other words if the hairspring is touching the balance arms seldom will we see it out of the watch. but typically about the only thing working again from balance wheels out of the watch is if they're grossly bad out of center or there's some weird bend somewhere but we really need to see the balance wheel in the watch looking down looking sideways looking at angles that are really hard to get pictures of.

then how about we put the watch in beat or he try to. So balance wheel out of the watch does give us a clue about something notice where your roller jewel is a notice on the opposite side of the balance wheel where the arm is? We can use that the site and get the roller jewel much closer to being in beat than it is now. So what the power off the watch like you have it in the picture pill notice from the other image your arm is off quite a bit from where it should be. You look at the long line I drew that should correspond the alignment with the roller jewel which we can't see but we can see the arm on the other side. So you can move the stud yes that's a movable stud you can move it counterclockwise and see if you bring the arm closer to an alignment and then wind the watch up and see if the beat looks at a better. but you may not see any improvement at all because your display for the graphics is not look good but the watch would run better for is closer to being in beat.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

As requested. Photographs of the balances

Balance in the movement. The spring was bend over the stud. Lifted over the stud and the kink Smoothed out. 

Full, not damaged cock, balance is the original. I damaged it by pulling hard, as a newby does.

Balance from donor that had screw seized. Drilled out and cock released. Balance itself seems ok, but I do not have enough skill to remove and place on the other cock.

 

 

So potentially you have 2 good balance cocks and 2-3 repairable balances. Hopefully you have enough here to make up a good balance that you can use. Even if they are all broken in some way you have nothing to lose and something to gain by changing some of the components. If the outcome isn't successful you have still gained knowledge and experience. I would start by rescuing the balance from the victim of the driller killer first. You also have balance jewels and shocksprings to bag up and label for spares or just stow away the deceased cock and mainplate as is. Then start looking at the original balance , how was this damaged by pulling ?

[Nucejoe]

21 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Ross. Looks like power loss somewhere, if three balances are exhibiting the same problem it’s more than coincidence. Remove the balance and work backwards remove pallet and check the train freedom. 

I usually add power to the barrel or any gear of the train I can find easy/ safe access to, 

1- if it gains amplitude , I conclude insufficient power, which could be mainspring or an issue with the barrel or a fault in gear train

2- If it refuses to oscilate, then its a heavy lock on the pallet

3- If it makes no difference I scratch my head. 

Your toughts please.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I usually add power to the barrel or any gear of the train I can find easy/ safe access to, 

1- if it gains amplitude , I conclude insufficient power, which could be mainspring or an issue with the barrel or a fault in gear train

2- If it refuses to oscilate, then its a heavy lock on the pallet

3- If it makes no difference I scratch my head. 

Your toughts please.

 

 

 

Add Oscialtor being way out of beat. 

[watchweasol]

Joe said it “the oscillator may be out of beat”   It’s not unknown for new balances to be out of beat. Always a point worth checking especially when everything else check out.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

balance without the pallet fork...give it a puff with your puffer and see how long it oscillates.  That is a good test.  I now do it regularly.  I would expect at least a minute--others may have a different number.

One minute is genrally what i get, sometimes a little longer

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

One minute is genrally what i get, sometimes a little longer

I'm usually 5 to 10 seconds if I am lucky. 

I've decided to go back to the drawing board. Going to start again from scratch. Disassemble, clean, lubricate and assemble every watch in order. Do each one in full before I move on. Give myself another 6 month to get the system correct. 

Ross

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

I'm usually 5 to 10 seconds if I am lucky. 

There is definitely something not right here, but starting afresh might be a good plan to uncover other issues. When you say 5 to 10 seconds of balance oscillation, is this with balance only installed ? Doing this will rule out any effects of beat error from roller jewel and pallet fork interaction 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

ve decided to go back to the drawing board. Going to start again from scratch. Disassemble, clean, lubricate and assemble every watch in order. Do each one in full before I move on. Give myself another 6 month to get the system correct. 

interesting plan tell me how it differs from the previous plans of doing this exact same thing? in other words what new insight do you now have that will allow you to somehow be better and somehow change the outcome then the previous times?

 

 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

There is definitely something not right here, but starting afresh might be a good plan to uncover other issues. When you say 5 to 10 seconds of balance oscillation, is this with balance only installed ? Doing this will rule out any effects of beat error from roller jewel and pallet fork interaction 

I think up above someplace I explained how he can put the watch back in beat visually.

Classically a problem like this is the hairspring is not actually flat it's touching a balance arm but it could be something else. watch repair is usually about making diagnostics and then fixing the problem followed up by cleaning. So in other words to be nice if we figured out what the problem with this watch is then see if we can fix the problem then they can be cleaned again if so desired.

[rossjackson01]

56 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

interesting plan tell me how it differs from the previous plans of doing this exact same thing? in other words what new insight do you now have that will allow you to somehow be better and somehow change the outcome then the previous times?

 

I think up above someplace I explained how he can put the watch back in beat visually.

Classically a problem like this is the hairspring is not actually flat it's touching a balance arm but it could be something else. watch repair is usually about making diagnostics and then fixing the problem followed up by cleaning. So in other words to be nice if we figured out what the problem with this watch is then see if we can fix the problem then they can be cleaned again if so desired.

Insight?  Practice, practice.

Problem is not only with this watch. It's every one that I do. All are low amplitude. Therefore it has to be me. Everything is always good up to the insert of the balance cock. Has to be the way I take the balance off initially. Therefore. Practice, practice.

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Insight?  Practice, practice.

Problem is not only with this watch. It's every one that I do. All are low amplitude. Therefore it has to be me. Everything is always good up to the insert of the balance cock. Has to be the way I take the balance off initially. Therefore. Practice, practice.

Do you think it could be pivot damage ? A bent pivot would probably give a few oscillations and then stop. Or as John has said deformation of the hairspring.  The pivot condition would be the easiest to check. Remind me what do you use to inspect the movement Ross.