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Very low amplitude


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Low amplitude Hello every one. I'm improving. Loving the hobby. I can disassemble and assemble ok. Using Mark's principles is a great guide. I do have a problem that I would like advice about. I have a problem with low amplitude. I have attached a video of a service. Enicar 2167 base eta 2789-1. I have cleaned both jewels, lighter fluid and IPA. 3 occasions. Amplitude appears less than 90 degrees. Any advice please? Thank you.

My desktop PC died. Using my phone so not sure of attachment. Will update when my dead PC is fixed

Edited by rossjackson01
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Hi Ross  looking at the video the vibration arc of the balance is compromised as though the spring was catching /rubbing or sticking. I should let down the movement remove the balance and the pallet/fork and then refit the balance. With a puffer give it a blow and watch the vibration if it stops after a few seconds  you will need to address the problem. is the spring flat, is the spring sticking coils, Is the spring catching or subbing the balance cock or balance arms.  Once clear and the balance fitted on it own and given a puff or two it should swing for 30sec or more with out power.

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Ross, when cleaning and re-assembling movements I make the following checks :

I clean the balance fitted to the mainplate, then oil and fit the balance jewels.
I then check that the hairspring looks centred, is flat, and isn't sticking.
Then with a strong blast from a blower, I want to see it still moving well (>180°) after 30s (DD & DU). If you don't get this, your problem lies here (check for end shake, dirty or bent pivots, dirty jewels, uncentered hairspring ).

If that seems OK, then I work back towards the mainspring.

Check the impulse jewel is secure, and clean, ditto pallet jewels.
Check pallet pivots and jewels clean and not damaged.
Fit the pallet and check that it's the correct height - fork is not rubbing on the roller.

If that is OK, I assemble the gear train. A gentle blow from the blower on the escape wheel (no pallet fitted) should move the whole gear train easily. If not, examine all jewels/pivots and check end shakes.
Movements with centre seconds like yours - any dirt/excess friction on the seconds wheel pivot will kill the amplitude.

Check the barrel arbor rotates freely without sticking and there isn't excessive ware on the arbor pivot holes. 

I learnt the above the hard way, by being where you are !

Good luck

 

Edited by mikepilk
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Thank you to all who have replied. The low amplitude is regarding the first YouTube video, 6 Sept 2022.  The train runs feely. The balance rotates 30s when blow applied prior to connecting palate fork. Amplitude is low in all positions.

Edited by rossjackson01
more information replied to.
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6 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Low amplitude Hello every one. I'm improving. Loving the hobby. I can disassemble and assemble ok. Using Mark's principles is a great guide. I do have a problem that I would like advice about. I have a problem with low amplitude. I have attached a video of a service. Enicar 2167 base eta 2789-1. I have cleaned both jewels, lighter fluid and IPA. 3 occasions. Amplitude appears less than 90 degrees. Any advice please? Thank you.

My desktop PC died. Using my phone so not sure of attachment. Will update when my dead PC is fixed

Hi ross. How you doing matey? I've read through your replies. So you've possjbly established that the balance is ok, by free running it, a good 30 seconds of spinning time coming to a steady slow controlled stop . So you have no lack of endshake on the staff to cause low amplitude from friction. An accidental upside down placement of a cap jewel could cause this. To keep things simple for now rule out the escapement and look towards the hs's  big brother. Lack of power at the mainspring, did you do anything with it service wise ? Some indication of power can be assessed. Remove the pallet fork and balance. Wind in some power with the stem and crown, easier and more convenient than fiddling winding up with a screwdriver. Watch how the train spins, some reverse spinning should be seen at the escape wheel. This will give you an idea of friction in the train and barrel, and a rough idea of the power that the mainspring is delivering, ie. as nucejoe has said it's torque. If the train is running really well then it is going to be somewhat of a guess regarding the mainspring condition. Have it out and have a good assessment of it. If it looks like its huddled up looking for comfort like a wounded child then its likely set. If its looking stretched out like a brave boy waking up ready for action then its probably ok. ( dont you just love my crazy analogies,  yes I'm quite barmy ). If both these areas seem adequate, then its maybe time to look at whats inbetween, which is the escapement.  I left this till last as its imo more complicated than the first two areas. Theres a few elements to consider here. Hopefully you now know the pivots should be ok . So 1. Are the pallet fork pivots there and in good condition and with adequate endshake ? 2. Are the pallet jewels ok ? 3. Are the pallet jewels unlocking from the escape wheel teeth ok ? 4. Is the impulse  jewel ok and at the correct depth. 5. Is the impulse jewel entering and exiting the pallet fork ok ?

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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Never... Thank you for the information. Unfortunately I do understand what you are saying. My skill levels are still not capable enough to complete most of the comments. However, I will do a complete strip down again and assess each item as suggested. I've looked at the jewels, and they are correctly inserted. Back to the starting point, and I thought I was doing well. I'll get there. I'm not giving up.

Ross

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5 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Never... Thank you for the information. Unfortunately I do understand what you are saying. My skill levels are still not capable enough to complete most of the comments. However, I will do a complete strip down again and assess each item as suggested. I've looked at the jewels, and they are correctly inserted. Back to the starting point, and I thought I was doing well. I'll get there. I'm not giving up.

Ross

You are very welcome Ross. I did gather that you had the jewels in correctly after you tested the balance assembly for free running and all was good.  I would be looking at the mainspring first. You will be fine with the other escapement checks as well honestly, just take your time. Poking around moving things with a piece of rodico is your safest bet. A thin rolled up piece will bend before anything breaks. its the correction of any issues found  that can be tricky.  I have altered escapement jewels a little while back, its bloody frustrating to say the least. Have the mainspring out first, I'm sure you are capable of this. If you haven’t removed one yet have a practise on some scrap movements.  Was the watch a runner before you disassembled ? Knowing if you caused the issue is a big pointer towards the problem. 

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19 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Was not a runner when I purchased it. Could set calendar day date. Did not wind. I've let the watch wind down naturally and it's now stopped. I'll start again and look at the train of wheels tomorrow.

Ross

Ah ok. You maybe dealing with a ver

 

19 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Was not a runner when I purchased it. Could set calendar day date. Did not wind. I've let the watch wind down naturally and it's now stopped. I'll start again and look at the train of wheels tomorrow.

Ross

Ah ok Ross. So we looking at an approx 50 year old automatic.  At 50 years the mainspring could easily be set. But is the auto wind working ? Do we know if the spring is holding its power beyond running the watch. Or if the spring is slipping and not taking much of a wind ? How long does the watch run for ?. Lol sooooo many questions, sorry Ross, I'm a bit hyper today. I'll leave you alone and go carry on with my own repair, i have a case and crystal to polish.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You maybe dealing with a ver

 @NeverenoughwatchesVer?  Not familiar with the term.

Ross, in your video, it possibly looks as if the beat is off.  Does the watch self start or do you need to set it into motion?  Where does the balance sit without any power in the mainspring?

BTW, it's disappointing to hear about your local windfarm.

Shane 

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15 minutes ago, Shane said:

 @NeverenoughwatchesVer?  Not familiar with the term.

Ross, in your video, it possibly looks as if the beat is off.  Does the watch self start or do you need to set it into motion?  Where does the balance sit without any power in the mainspring?

BTW, it's disappointing to hear about your local windfarm.

Shane 

Haha. I had just had the very bad news that my son is now not moving out this week, if at all. Its surprising i actually came back to post anything. The ver should have been "wtf do you mean you're not leaving now ".

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9 hours ago, dadistic said:

Ah, he was five years younger. Even my old man wasn't mean enough to kick him out 🙂

 

I remember the day i left home, it was after a fight with my old man. He thought he was good at it i was better lol. I was 19, oh happy days 😄

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Crazy reminiscent memories of my old man made me smile
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Done it!!!

Thank you I took out the balance and palate fork. Wheels ok. Inserted everything again. Same problem. Backs to train. Took off Mainspring winder and saw that the click was not in correctly. It was not actually pressured against the click spring. Reset and connected everything. Woohoo! 

 

Edited by rossjackson01
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Well done. You just have to be methodical and work back from the balance, through the gear train to the barrel.

I guess that the mainspring wasn't winding?
It's good to learn what it feels like when winding a properly working mainspring - through the crown, and via a screwdriver on the ratchet wheel screw. 

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3 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Done it!!!

Thank you I took out the balance and palate fork. Wheels ok. Inserted everything again. Same problem. Backs to train. Took off Mainspring winder and saw that the click was not in correctly. It was not actually pressured against the click spring. Reset and connected everything. Woohoo! 

 

Yey. Well done Ross. How good is that you ask ? . ffing bloody fantastic matey, ( haha sorry my dialogue goes a bit wayward from excitement when things turn out well ). So many things it could have been,# lack of power # and many causes of that .  Brilliant mate well spotted and well thought out. Keep churning em out matey you are doing fantastically 👍

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Almost there. I have put the calendar works together and date moves correctly. However, the day wheel does not seat on the plate, therefore it does not connect or rotate. No spring connection. This is the same problem that I have with my other eta 2789-1. Aaaagh!

Edited by rossjackson01
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I had a similar problem with a 2789. First you have to make sure the "Day Indicator Guard" (the brass wheel in the pic) is properly seated. Then sit the day wheel on, and using something thin (fine screwdriver), slip it under the day wheel to push the day jumper lever (where I've highlighted). This then allows space for the day wheel to sit flat. 

image.png.b3bbfcff2498f41cb8299c6a5ecdbd45.png

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Mikepilk. Thank you for the view. Unfortunately mine is the eta 2789-1 and the calendar works are different. I do have donor parts for a 2789 rebuild, but this watch is a rebuild for the specific enicar 2167 that I purchased, and it has the 2789-1 movement. I will get there (I think).

 

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  • 5 months later...

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but advice from fellow members is always appreciated. I have finished the ETA2789-1 movement. However on checking with the timegrapher it displays on 'tick' for about 5 seconds, dots all over the palace, then resets to start the check again. It never gets beyond this.

Do need to do a full strip down and restart? Should I try to get a replacement balance complete again, on my third. already

Not a happy bunny

 

Update

From a donor. I've got another good balance that is on a cock that had a broken screw head. I've drilled out the screw. Cock is now damaged beyond repair, Balance looks perfect. Don't have the skill yet from removal and placement into another cock.

Another donor balance was twisted from the stud. I've gently straightened the spring form the stud. Now actually runs????? Amplitude 170 degrees. Beat error 5.0 to 1.2 (After slightest touch, depends how its feeling). Rate +++++s/d

Aaaagh!

Good fun  ish.

I can completely dissemble, clean, assemble and lubricate. Train works, motion works, and keyless all operate very well. I just can't seem to get the system to work on the balance. I always have a problem. I'm a low amplitude King!!

Not going to defeat me!!!!

 

Ross

Edited by rossjackson01
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