Little dryer hack new people might like + Is Birddad a hairspring serial killer?! 😬😬😬

[Neverenoughwatches]

45 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Yeah me either, i almost had a goddamned heart attack.  I've removed 7s26 balance cocks several times and the way i do it is pretty standard, i genetly lever under the back side of the cock near the post with a screwdriver by twisting it, it lifts up the cock and frees it.

There was some sort of weird tension , the MOMENT the back end of the balance cock was free of the brass rod the thing would have shot halfway across my desk and there was even an audible metal *ping* sound. I seriously do not understand the physics of how this could happen...

But beware...it can happen...

Ah ok. I'm guessing a little here on the cause but not on the theory.  The h/s is held under tention at 2 points, in the same way the mainspring is. A spring has 2 ends and can be tensioned at either end but can only be held under tension by making both the ends fixed, yes ? So the hs can be held tensioned by the pallet fork that can hold the impulse jewel that is on the roller table that is on the staff that has the collet on it that the hs attaches into, yes ? Are you with me so far ? The other end is always fixed ie in the stud that is on the regulator. So any tension that the hs may have can only change at the pallet fork end,  except for any manual adjustment at the opposite end made at the regulator or a removal of the regulator or any component that it is attached to., yes ? You still with me ?. So if the pallet fork was locked in some way at the escapement and the hs was under tension from a beat error or overbank then the tension could only be released at the stud end, which would happen when you removed the balance cock. Pa-ching.

14 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

There are some of the newer design balance tacks out there that have a table to support the balance to prevent the spring from over stretching.

Eyup HectorLooi hope you are well matey. A little trick here that mikepilk mentioned a while back. Place a piece of foam sponge onto the tack, this will give you a resting table for the balance wheel. A cracking little hack i thought.

10 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Yeah i haven't even attempted to dive into hairspring reshaping and fixing yet. I have a couple set aside for when I do though and yes i can't imagine attempting something like that without a microscope!

Lets find you one birb so you can crack on.   lol. I am in a very helpful mood today aren't i.  

Edited September 6, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches
Possible quickie induced good mood lol

[Nucejoe]

 To remove the cock-balance assembly, loosen the cock screw about 80% of its thread, do not remove the screw so it keeps the cock assembly from flying as you try to unpin the cock.  

Regds

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 To remove the cock-balance assembly, loosen the cock screw about 80% of its thread, do not remove the screw so it keeps the cock assembly from flying as you try to unpin the cock.  

Regds

Also check for tension by nudging the balance wheel then at least you are prepared.

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ah ok. I'm guessing a little here on the cause but not on the theory.  The h/s is held under tention at 2 points, in the same way the mainspring is. A spring has 2 ends and can be tensioned at either end but can only be held under tension by making both the ends fixed, yes ? So the hs can be held tensioned by the pallet fork that can hold the impulse jewel that is on the roller table that is on the staff that has the collet on it that the hs attaches into, yes ? Are you with me so far ? The other end is always fixed ie in the stud that is on the regulator. So any tension that the hs may have can only change at the pallet fork end,  except for any manual adjustment at the opposite end made at the regulator or a removal of the regulator or any component that it is attached to., yes ? You still with me ?. So if the pallet fork was locked in some way at the escapement and the hs was under tension from a beat error or overbank then the tension could only be released at the stud end, which would happen when you removed the balance cock. Pa-ching.

Hmm. either i wasn't very clear or i'm drastically drastically underestimating the strength of a balance spring.
Here's a little diagram of what happened haha

25 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 To remove the cock-balance assembly, loosen the cock screw about 80% of its thread, do not remove the screw so it keeps the cock assembly from flying as you try to unpin the cock.  

Regds

that....is a damn good idea haha.

Wild i've seen this done on 100 different videos and nobody does this. Definitely a lesson i learned the hard way...

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Hmm. either i wasn't very clear or i'm drastically drastically underestimating the strength of a balance spring.
Here's a little diagram of what happened haha

that....is a damn good idea haha.

Wild i've seen this done on 100 different videos and nobody does this. Definitely a lesson i learned the hard way...

Lmao.  I can honestly say I've never had or seen that happen

[Birbdad]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Lmao.  I can honestly say I've never had or seen that happen

In all my research nobody has even mentioned this is a thing that can happen. I did see the many many other warnings about the OTHER things that can fly off like shock settings and calendar works springs.

I'm a watch repair pioneer I guess.

[gbyleveldt]

48 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

In all my research nobody has even mentioned this is a thing that can happen. I did see the many many other warnings about the OTHER things that can fly off like shock settings and calendar works springs.

I'm a watch repair pioneer I guess.

My man, when you have a bit of free cash you should really, REALLY do @Mark course. He specifically addresses this very issue in one of the classes. The advice @Nucejoe gave is considered standard practice. You have to remember that in cases where there's a post and a screw, lifting the cock one end at a time may lift the cock at an angle vs the mating plate and with the post/cock hole interface there's very little clearance, so easy for it to jam - especially on 7 series Seiko movements. You then put a little extra effort into getting the cock off and pew, you have an RUD (Rapid Unexpected Disassembly). That very thing almost happened to me on the last FHF 66 movement I've done because I got complacent - thank goodness I got lucky.

That's the issue with watching most YT videos (mine included) as many of these little things are glossed over in the interests of keeping the pace of the video up. Go do Mark's course, it's not that expensive vs the amount of money you may lose when things go wrong. At the very least you'll learn what is accepted practice and technique. He also addresses pretty much all the questions you've been posting over the last few months. You clearly have an interest in this hobby outside of just working on the odd watch. Training is a better investment than fancy tools...

58 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Hmm. either i wasn't very clear or i'm drastically drastically underestimating the strength of a balance spring.
Here's a little diagram of what happened haha

that....is a damn good idea haha.

Wild i've seen this done on 100 different videos and nobody does this. Definitely a lesson i learned the hard way...

That's a brilliant illustration - it's obvious you're an artist! Thanks for that hehe

Edited September 6, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Birbdad]

11 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

My man, when you have a bit of free cash you should really, REALLY do @Mark course. He specifically addresses this very issue in one of the classes. The advice @Nucejoe gave is considered standard practice. You have to remember that in cases where there's a post and a screw, lifting the cock one end at a time may lift the cock at an angle vs the mating plate and with the post/cock hole interface there's very little clearance, so easy for it to jam - especially on 7 series Seiko movements. You then put a little extra effort into getting the cock off and pew, you have an RUD (Rapid Unexpected Disassembly). That very thing almost happened to me on the last FHF 66 movement I've done because I got complacent - thank goodness I got lucky.

That's the issue with watching most YT videos (mine included) as many of these little things are glossed over in the interests of keeping the pace of the video up. Go do Mark's course, it's not that expensive vs the amount of money you may lose when things go wrong. At the very least you'll learn what is accepted practice and technique. He also addresses pretty much all the questions you've been posting over the last few months. You clearly have an interest in this hobby outside of just working on the odd watch. Training is a better investment than fancy tools...

That's a brilliant illustration - it's obvious you're an artist! Thanks for that hehe

I am planning to take his courses. I was checking out the patreon the other day and theyr'e sold out, i will be taking some of the courses soon though. I just really do feel like currently with the research i have done I can service a 7s26, i've just been in a prolonged state of finding out a part is broken and having to source a new one or finding there's a random tool i need and having to wait for it to arrive. It was however inevitable that something nasty like this would happen.

For every hour i've spent trying to service these watches iv'e spent several days waiting for the mail! 

I actually did anticipate  that this could be an issue with how tight it was so i sorta went back and forth carefully edging up each end one after the other to keep the balance cock pretty much level as i shimmied up the posts, the cock cleared the brass post first and off it went haha. 

And yes i'm literally an artist for a living. This was just a quick little doodle!

[Neverenoughwatches]

42 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

You then put a little extra effort into getting the cock off and pew, you have an RUD (Rapid Unexpected Disassembly).

I look forward to this with great expectations lol. Morning matey

30 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

And yes i'm literally an artist for a living. This was just a quick little doodle!

I used to be a different kind of artist, I never made any money from it and strangely enough it would reduce my income. I eventually had to give it up to preserve my health.

[Birbdad]

26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I look forward to this with great expectations lol. Morning matey

Watch now it's gonna happen within the next week now that you know about it. And to something far more expensive than an nh35.

26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I look forward to this with great expectations lol. Morning matey

I used to be a different kind of artist, I never made any money from it and strangely enough it would reduce my income. I eventually had to give it up to preserve my health.

Yeah, the money's not great currently. When I briefly worked in industry as an artist i made quite a bit.

Unfortunately i have a sleep disorder that pretty much makes any normal career impossible and the only way to live with it is to organize your entire life around it. My options are either art or something menial like a night desk clerk at a motel or stocking shelves at a grocery store. "Night owl careers" isn't really a thing outside of the medical field and it's too late for me to go to med school, not that i could afford it.

I may not make much but I get up every day excited to get to my work and that's worth a lot to me. I at least make ends meet.

I'll take being a cash poor artist over being a miserable exhausted perpetually sleep deprived zombie with money any day. Going 3 days a week without any sleep, now THAT is bad for your health.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Birbdad

[gbyleveldt]

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I look forward to this with great expectations lol. Morning matey

We're still talking about watches right?  Morning my man!

[Neverenoughwatches]

54 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

We're still talking about watches right?  Morning my man!

Haha . Did you pick up on the quickie comment elsewhere.  I think i mentioned it twice lol . Yes i was talking about watches in all references.  Or was I ?

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Unfortunately i have a sleep disorder that pretty much makes any normal career impossible and the only way to live with it is to organize your entire life around it.

Aw mate sorry about that, must be pretty shite for you. I dont have anything like that but i haven't slept well for years. I'm lucky if i get 4 hours sleep a night, always have things on my mind, it never shuts off lol. You may have noticed my posts through out Uk early morning hours. But thats mostly down to other wierd things going on with me and watches. Sleep is so important to us, and we need a lot more than we think we do and actually get. Addressing mental issues is difficult, I've been there and suffered some really bad times, to a point of doing something silly ( i got lucky ). My outlook on life now is just to be happy and always smile and laugh ( usually at myself ). If someone thinks I'm a nutcase then thats actually not my problem. I know I'm not crazy, I've seen proper crazy very recenty, it was very disturbing. Mine is a good kind of crazy . 

[Birbdad]

19 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha . Did you pick up on the quickie comment elsewhere.  I think i mentioned it twice lol . Yes i was talking about watches in all references.  Or was I ?

Aw mate sorry about that, must be pretty shite for you. I dont have anything like that but i haven't slept well for years. I'm lucky if i get 4 hours sleep a night, always have things on my mind, it never shuts off lol. You may have noticed my posts through out Uk early morning hours. But thats mostly down to other wierd things going on with me and watches. Sleep is so important to us, and we need a lot more than we think we do and actually get. Addressing mental issues is difficult, I've been there and suffered some really bad times, to a point of doing something silly ( i got lucky ). My outlook on life now is just to be happy and always smile and laugh ( usually at myself ). If someone thinks I'm a nutcase then thats actually not my problem. I know I'm not crazy, I've seen proper crazy very recenty, it was very disturbing. Mine is a good kind of crazy . 

Yeah i have the same thing where my brain never shuts off too, my entire life i had HORRIBLE insomnia, and only actually found out what was going on about 8 years ago. I have something called delayed sleep phase disorder. Basically i can sleep fine...just only at the opposite hours of the rest of society. Trying to exist on society's time rendered it impossible to sleep. There's no cure, you just have to accept your lot in life as a permanent night dweller.

It's 6 am right now in the states and i've still got a couple hours left in me for the night and I'll wake up around 4:30 pm. As long as i stick to roughly these hours i sleep like a baby. So many chronic problems i had tied to my chronic sleeplessness have resolved themselves. I will never go back, it's impossible.

One of the reasons i dive into hobbies like this is this is a lonely existence. I don't know anybody else who's a night owl and by the time i'm up and coffeed and breakfast'd most people i know are sorta settling down for the evening.

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

One of the reasons i dive into hobbies like this is this is a lonely existence. I don't know anybody else who's a night owl and by the time i'm up and coffeed and breakfast'd most people i know are sorta settling down for the evening.

Aw bless you matey. You always have us here to talk to if you are feeling lonely and vent to if something or someone is peeing you off. You can pm me any time night or day if you need to talk about anything that is bothering you. I can talk for Great Britain but I'm also a very good listener. I am something of a nightowl myself, more by choice than anything, i basically dont like people lol. 

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Watch now it's gonna happen within the next week now that you know about it. And to something far more expensive than an nh35.

Yeah, the money's not great currently. When I briefly worked in industry as an artist i made quite a bit.

Unfortunately i have a sleep disorder that pretty much makes any normal career impossible and the only way to live with it is to organize your entire life around it. My options are either art or something menial like a night desk clerk at a motel or stocking shelves at a grocery store. "Night owl careers" isn't really a thing outside of the medical field and it's too late for me to go to med school, not that i could afford it.

I may not make much but I get up every day excited to get to my work and that's worth a lot to me. I at least make ends meet.

I'll take being a cash poor artist over being a miserable exhausted perpetually sleep deprived zombie with money any day. Going 3 days a week without any sleep, now THAT is bad for your health.

 

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Aw bless you matey. You always have us here to talk to if you are feeling lonely and vent to if something or someone is peeing you off. You can pm me any time night or day if you need to talk about anything that is bothering you. I can talk for Great Britain but I'm also a very good listener. I am something of a nightowl myself, more by choice than anything, i basically dont like people lol. 

Everyone should listen to Baz Luhrmann's # Everybody is free - to wear sunscreen # . It  puts life into perspective. 

[Birbdad]

29 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Aw bless you matey. You always have us here to talk to if you are feeling lonely and vent to if something or someone is peeing you off. You can pm me any time night or day if you need to talk about anything that is bothering you. I can talk for Great Britain but I'm also a very good listener. I am something of a nightowl myself, more by choice than anything, i basically dont like people lol. 

 

Everyone should listen to Baz Luhrmann's # Everybody is free - to wear sunscreen # . It  puts life into perspective. 

Hah I appreciate ya and I just may. I'm honestly not unhappy, I don't think "lonely" is the best way to put it more like BORED. I moved to Texas some time ago, i don't know hardly anybody here and the state appears to be a state consisting of people who've never gotten up off their asses in their life lol. My vampiric waking and sleeping hours just make everything involving social relationships just that much more of a challenge.

I'm more of a very extroverted socialize at a coffee shop/go out on adventures/go on a nature hike/have an adventure every weekend kind of guy who's surrounded by "get fat while looking at a tv or phone" people haha. Since I can't find anybody not allergic to sunshine and fresh air I have hobbies that keep me mentally stimulated.
 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Hah I appreciate ya and I just may. I'm honestly not unhappy, I don't think "lonely" is the best way to put it more like BORED. I moved to Texas some time ago, i don't know hardly anybody here and the state appears to be a state consisting of people who've never gotten up off their asses in their life lol. My vampiric waking and sleeping hours just make everything involving social relationships just that much more of a challenge.

I'm more of a very extroverted socialize at a coffee shop/go out on adventures/go on a nature hike/have an adventure every weekend kind of guy who's surrounded by "get fat while looking at a tv or phone" people haha. Since I can't find anybody not allergic to sunshine and fresh air I have hobbies that keep me mentally stimulated.
 

Ok matey. The offer is there if you ever need it.

[dadistic]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I'm more of a very extroverted socialize at a coffee shop/go out on adventures/go on a nature hike/have an adventure every weekend kind of guy who's surrounded by "get fat while looking at a tv or phone" people haha. Since I can't find anybody not allergic to sunshine and fresh air I have hobbies that keep me mentally stimulated.
 

Just curious, why Texas? We moved to where we are now because of the outdoor lifestyle,  people here are seriously into their outdoor activities.  There is more than 100 miles of wooded trail inside the Duluth city limits.  We are in the same boat, though, trying to find new friends. My wife is succeeding,  I'm not

It will happen, just have to ferret out the local timepiece community. I know they are around, but they're hiding 

Cheers!

[jdm]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:25 AM, Birbdad said:

some people say use a hair dryer on a budget which is a great way to spend an hour on your hands and knees looking for the parts that it made fly all over the room

Correct. Unfortunately we read terrible advice from time to time here, and isn't possible to always catch and flag it. Sometimes it even comes from experienced members, making it even more dangerous because author's post count.

Parts should be dryed from water based solutions only with a small blower, and provided that are either held securely, or kept inside a mesh thimble. And when the last rinse is, as it should be, isopropyl alcohol, there is no need to dry at all, because it will have absorbed all water, and evaporates very quickly. 

 

On 9/5/2022 at 8:25 AM, Birbdad said:

is something i'm doing destroying hairsprings?  

 

On 9/6/2022 at 9:28 AM, Birbdad said:

Here's a little diagram of what happened haha

There is no surprise in what has happened to you. It is, in fact, very common for beginners to damage hairsprings one way or another, sometimes without even realizing. 

That is the reason why when someone shows up here declaring belligerant intentions against his expensive, unreplaceable or just nice watch the best advice that can be given is to leave it alone.

And the problem with Seiko hairsprings is even more acute, because these a bit thinner than others, in order to improve overall efficiency. They won't resist not just abuse but any mistreatment, like the use of the torture tool called balance tack. Despite shock protection, it's perfectly possible to distort a Seiko hairspring with a proper shock to the complete watch, something that surprises even some professional. After a Seiko hairspring has been even slightly deformed, the result will be, as a minimum, reduced amplitude, something that when reported here invariably produces page long topics of theorizing and inconclusive discussion, with surprising suggestions going from set the angle in timegrapher, to clean it better, to what about the mainspring. 

Sorry about the long tirade, I  occasionally repeat myself with the hope that someone will perhaps read this and be informed before digging himself down the rats hole. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by jdm

[Birbdad]

6 hours ago, jdm said:

And when the last rinse is, as it should be, isopropyl alcohol, there is no need to dry at all, because it will have absorbed all water, and evaporates very quickly. 

So this is really interesting. Most advice i got especially for drying with ipa is that the fast evaporation of it will draw in condensation which will cause parts to rust from that moisture so you want to dry it under slow but moving heated air. I'm not blowing stuff around with the hairdryer but I put the strainer down as a precaution just in case. 

So you believe this isn't necessary? If that's true that certainly makes things a lot easier. I would much prefer to just put it on some watchpaper and cover it and walk away.

 

There is no surprise in what has happened to you. It is, in fact, very common for beginners to damage hairsprings one way or another, sometimes without even realizing.

Yup I knew it was gonna happen at some point, this incident really surprised me. I removed 3 balances from other 7s movements and there was zero tension there. I"m pretty sure for the most part my removal and handling is mostly solid short of freak incidents like this  but If you or other people could post a video of how you flip over a balance assembly to rest it on it's back after removal I think that would be a great resource as every time i do it feel like i'm sorta rolling the dice and everybody seems to do it off camera. People have told me Mark's method (Sandwich the balance wheel to the cock with tweezers) is very dangerous and the method you and other people do isn't super clear to me from that previous thread on the subject. A visual aid would be really helpful of the best practices.

 

On 9/6/2022 at 10:57 AM, dadistic said:

Just curious, why Texas? We moved to where we are now because of the outdoor lifestyle,  people here are seriously into their outdoor activities.  There is more than 100 miles of wooded trail inside the Duluth city limits.  We are in the same boat, though, trying to find new friends. My wife is succeeding,  I'm not

It will happen, just have to ferret out the local timepiece community. I know they are around, but they're hiding 

Cheers!

I originally moved here about 5 years ago because I started a business with a guy who lives in this city and we did quite well till covid came along and the business basically went under as a huge chunk of the country lost their jobs and people stopped buying our products.

I had really been just looking for a reason to get out of California though which I love but it's WAY too expensive. I make my living as a freelance artist and doing the art things that I want to do while paying 45k a year to rent a tiny apartment is not really tenable.  

Pity you're not closer, i'm always down to go on a hike. The forest right near here has 100 miles of wild wilderness forest trail you can camp on and I've only explored about 1/5th of it because finding anybody to keep me company is almost impossible.  Also my late father is from texas and connecting with some of that side of my family has been nice.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Birbdad

[Jon]

On 9/6/2022 at 4:44 AM, Birbdad said:

Ok. So i remounted and demagnetized balance A (The one that had the mishap), then tried another perc bath on it. It looked even worse afterwards. Then i changed out the perc and gave it ANOTHER bath and this is the result


I subjected Balance B to a bath in the fresh perc and it looks totally normal now and is moving freely so @gbyleveldt was correct. Wow that stuff contaminates easily. 

A good way to find if the fluid you are cleaning with is contaminated is put a drop on a piece of glass and see if any residue is left after it has evaporated. I clean my balance and hairspring whilst it is attached to the mainplate using L and R '#111 Ultrasonic watch cleaning solution' then rinse with L and R '#3 watch rinsing solution'. I'll even give them a rinse in 99.99% IPA if needed, as putting it through 'one dip' just doesn't cut it in my experience. If you use the correct cleaner and rinse after demagnetising, then you won't have these problems with a sticky hairspring. The rinse is critical, otherwise you are leaving residue of the cleaner on the hairspring, even if you can't see it. Also a good demagnetiser is important, not one of those Micky Mouse small blue things. They are no good to man nor beast! I use an Eclipse 955 like this: https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/hand-tools/magnetiser-and-demagnetiser-devices/da955-demagnetiser-single-type-da/p/ZT1002385X?adid=515998013892&dev=c&net=g&pos=&trckid=XEtNjG2p&utm_medium=ps_cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=ps-|-products-|-brands-with-_e_-|-%231&utm_term=da955&utm_content=zt1002385x&mkwid=-dc&pcrid=515998013892&pkw=da955&pmt=p&prodid=&slid=&pgrid={groupid}&ptaid=kwd-384916686616&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyOuYBhCGARIsAIdGQRNNxkN-bCupjy7Uhql_3vxvQ_50ZPZH-YirvSX6zsjWRLFBdNklw3AaAizvEALw_wcB

They're expensive new, but you find them on eBay now and then for a good price. I picked one up for £30 a few years ago and it's amazing! You may think it's too powerful for hairsprings, but that's not the case and have never damaged one demagnetising it. You'll never wonder if you demagnetised properly again using this bad boy...

BTW, if the balance staff is sitting in the jewel in the pic you showed after cleaning, then the bunching up of the hairspring coils is because the endcurve is badly formed and out of shape. You can see that very clearly. The endcurve should look like this.... 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Jon

[Birbdad]

9 hours ago, Jon said:

A good way to find if the fluid you are cleaning with is contaminated is put a drop on a piece of glass and see if any residue is left after it has evaporated. I clean my balance and hairspring whilst it is attached to the mainplate using L and R '#111 Ultrasonic watch cleaning solution' then rinse with L and R '#3 watch rinsing solution'. I'll even give them a rinse in 99.99% IPA if needed, as putting it through 'one dip' just doesn't cut it in my experience. If you use the correct cleaner and rinse after demagnetising, then you won't have these problems with a sticky hairspring. The rinse is critical, otherwise you are leaving residue of the cleaner on the hairspring, even if you can't see it. Also a good demagnetiser is important, not one of those Micky Mouse small blue things. They are no good to man nor beast! I use an Eclipse 955 like this: https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/hand-tools/magnetiser-and-demagnetiser-devices/da955-demagnetiser-single-type-da/p/ZT1002385X?adid=515998013892&dev=c&net=g&pos=&trckid=XEtNjG2p&utm_medium=ps_cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=ps-|-products-|-brands-with-_e_-|-%231&utm_term=da955&utm_content=zt1002385x&mkwid=-dc&pcrid=515998013892&pkw=da955&pmt=p&prodid=&slid=&pgrid={groupid}&ptaid=kwd-384916686616&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyOuYBhCGARIsAIdGQRNNxkN-bCupjy7Uhql_3vxvQ_50ZPZH-YirvSX6zsjWRLFBdNklw3AaAizvEALw_wcB

They're expensive new, but you find them on eBay now and then for a good price. I picked one up for £30 a few years ago and it's amazing! You may think it's too powerful for hairsprings, but that's not the case and have never damaged one demagnetising it. You'll never wonder if you demagnetised properly again using this bad boy...

BTW, if the balance staff is sitting in the jewel in the pic you showed after cleaning, then the bunching up of the hairspring coils is because the endcurve is badly formed and out of shape. You can see that very clearly. The endcurve should look like this.... 

Interesting. Elsewhere on here people say the mickey mouse blue boxes seem to do a fine job, i'll keep an eye out for a good deal on something else. 

I did just get in a pair of number 5 and number 3 tweezers. Even if these were adequate to attempt a minor hairspring adjustment (I'd wager i'm not skilled enough to do this currently but i plan to learn.) could this possibly simple reshaping be attempted while the hairspring was still on the balance? I don't currently have proper tools to remove a hairspring.
 

[jdm]

Look like this topic is also taking the typical detour from the subject, which was (Seiko) hairsprings and how to not damage them. I have no problem with that myself, so going into detail

 

Quote

So this is really interesting. Most advice i got especially for drying with ipa is that the fast evaporation of it will draw in condensation which will cause parts to rust from that moisture

As with any cleaning or lubrication subject, harsplitting endless is endless. Evaporation causes a small drop in temperature, but unlikely the typical condensation phenomena where there is a cold and a warm side like on a window glass, there is no such thing on a small watch part, it's all exposed to the same air. There is no attraction to speak of. Yes, if you had a slow, warm air source that would be better but they didn't had that 300 years ago while making already astonishing timepieces? Be confident that if you don't have or use, it won't be that that will damage you mov.t, or make it perform any different.

 

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So you believe this isn't necessary? If that's true that certainly makes things a lot easier. I would much prefer to just put it on some watchpaper and cover it and walk away.

Cover it if you walk away, or just do another task while waiting the very short time needed for IPA or ether solutions to dry up. 

 

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People have told me Mark's method (Sandwich the balance wheel to the cock with tweezers) is very dangerous 

This the same subject we covered recently in one of your topics. Then again, highlighting and summarizing the key point:
Holding cock and balance together MIGHT bend the top pivot ONLY WHEN the top jewel is installed.
I suppose that's in Mark's videos the jewel was removed for service, so all is good. Also in many videos m he llike anyone else with a good hand, hold the cock alone and lets the impulse jewel drop right in the horns when refitting. Which makes the balance start swinging even before cock and top pivots are perfectly in place.
So, there are cases when for the sake of practicality one will have to make the balance dangle for a short time. Just do that slowly and in a controlled manner. Any video from a reputable watchmaker that does like that is a valid guide.

 

7 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Elsewhere on here people say the mickey mouse blue boxes seem to do a fine job

They do, because magnetism is always the same within the entire known universe. The very expensive device linked it's instead a mechanical / machine shop demagnetizer made for large pieces not watches or clocks. 

 

7 hours ago, Birbdad said:

could this possibly simple reshaping be attempted while the hairspring was still on the balance?

Yes. Also keep in mind that Seiko balances are not made to be even separated after manufacturing. Of course, you may read some talented people claiming they can split and rejoin these easily like a pencil cap. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Interesting. Elsewhere on here people say the mickey mouse blue boxes seem to do a fine job, i'll keep an eye out for a good deal on something else. 

I did just get in a pair of number 5 and number 3 tweezers. Even if these were adequate to attempt a minor hairspring adjustment (I'd wager i'm not skilled enough to do this currently but i plan to learn.) could this possibly simple reshaping be attempted while the hairspring was still on the balance? I don't currently have proper tools to remove a hairspring.
 

Eyup Col . The mickey mouse blue boxes do demagnetise.  I cant give you a comparison to à more expensive one. But the one i use does demag my tweezers efficiently, from picking up an average sized screw to not picking up anything at all.  And yes some hairspring work can be carried out while its fitted on the balance. Ideally fine hairspring tweezers get into the coils better. You will discover all this as soon as you start practicing.  2 fine bent  no. 7s work best. They are expensive though bought new. Make a habit each day to search ebay for 20 mins mate, in the Uk second hand stuff comes up regularly. As a tip for you seek out sellers that have watch and engineering sales and then save them as a seller. I have around 20 saved that regularly have vintage items for sale that they've bought from auctions.

[dadistic]

Condensation is not a problem, until it's a problem

It's been a problem for me. 

If you work in an air conditioned or low humidity environment,  IPA drying will not likely drop the temp of the part below the dew point, so no water on the part. 

I don't have air conditioning,  and the dew point can become quite high here. Heated drying eliminates the possibility of your parts ending up with a film of water on them.

Cheers!

[Birbdad]

15 hours ago, dadistic said:

Condensation is not a problem, until it's a problem

It's been a problem for me. 

If you work in an air conditioned or low humidity environment,  IPA drying will not likely drop the temp of the part below the dew point, so no water on the part. 

I don't have air conditioning,  and the dew point can become quite high here. Heated drying eliminates the possibility of your parts ending up with a film of water on them.

Cheers!

Here in texas the humidity can be 50 to 90 percent indoors? i honestly don't know. At hte very least pointing a hairdryer at it from 4 feet away can't hurt i imagine. May be a waste of my time but so many people have told me they stopped having rust issues once they started using hot moving air.
 

On 9/10/2022 at 2:38 AM, jdm said:

 

 

This the same subject we covered recently in one of your topics. Then again, highlighting and summarizing the key point:
Holding cock and balance together MIGHT bend the top pivot ONLY WHEN the top jewel is installed.

That's right. I forgot this little detail. Thanks.

Just removed the balance assembly from a parts movement i just got in. Yet again it's a bit collapsed on the same side. Not enough for any coils to be touching but the balance wheel moves less freely and I'm just wondering what the heck causes this. I saw it soon as i opened the package so it wasn't me. 

I'll post the best pics i can when i get it cleaned up, this might be a good candidate to attempt a very fine hairspring adjustment with my new tweezers if i could get some advice on where to adjust. I got a feeling it's at the second kink near the regulator pin.

I'm annoyed, the ebay listing said the balance assembly was good and it's really not.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Birbdad