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Hello I have also just purchase a 1940s national electric watch cleaner - very similar although with a new flex and 13 amp plug, will need a good lean up all complete but no baskets that i can see yet! Are you still in discusion i would very much like to hear what you did on refurb, i have some crinkle paint from a car resto and hammerite and cork tiles too.

Alan

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Stephen, the brushes look as though they still have plenty of meat on them. Have you had a look at the commutator? It may need cleaning. Have a look at this: m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBLwUG_AdU

Thanks guys. Rather than getting new brushes I've just done as suggested and cleaned everything. Now working as good as new - well, as good as a decades old machine anyway. Pity the speed control no l

If the bush is sintered then it will hold lubricant inside the material.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good Afternoon I hope you are all keeping safe and well during this tough time.Can anyone help or suggest how I can remove the basket shaft on my National Watch Cleaning Machine.I have obtained another larger diameter basket assembly and shaft and I want to install this on my machine.I have removed the grub screw that secures the shaft and tried gently pulling the shaft from the motor but it will not budge.I have soaked the shaft through the grub screw hole with Plus Gas Quick Release fluid and still no movement.So if anyone has any suggestions for this problem I have I would be most grateful for any help.Regards to all and keep safe.Seth.(Photos enclosed)

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IMG_20201123_124654645_HDR.jpg

IMG_20201123_124718118_HDR.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Seth said:

Good Afternoon I hope you are all keeping safe and well during this tough time.Can anyone help or suggest how I can remove the basket shaft on my National Watch Cleaning Machine.I have obtained another larger diameter basket assembly and shaft and I want to install this on my machine.I have removed the grub screw that secures the shaft and tried gently pulling the shaft from the motor but it will not budge.I have soaked the shaft through the grub screw hole with Plus Gas Quick Release fluid and still no movement.So if anyone has any suggestions for this problem I have I would be most grateful for any help.Regards to all and keep safe.Seth.(Photos enclosed)

IMG_20201123_124600791.jpg

IMG_20201123_124611520.jpg

IMG_20201123_124654645_HDR.jpg

IMG_20201123_124718118_HDR.jpg

Hi there Many thanks for your reply I will try this if all else fails but I don't want to damage the motor shaft with too much heat.Regards,Seth.

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3 minutes ago, Tudor said:

Whenever I hit a wall like this, I start taking it apart further. There may be something that is not obvious at work here...

Hi there, Many thanks for your reply I have had the machine completely stripped down and rewired  and it's running like a dream but as I have said I have obtained a basket assembly with 3 baskets that have various compartments in them but the holder on the machine is too small to fit the new basket assembly.I have obtained a spare shaft assembly that fits the new basket assembly and is the same physical dimensions as the one on the machine so all I want to do is swap them over,but I cannot get the old shaft off the machine.It is a hollow shaft that fits over the motor shaft then there is another larger hollow cover shaft with the cleaning jar lid on.So unless I can get the shaft off the machine I am unable to swap them.Regards,Seth.

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OK. Not sure how to help then. If you already took it all apart, just do that again!

It is possible the motor shaft rotated in the hollow shaft, and now it's bound up. Burrs around the threaded set screw hole can gall the shaft as well. You will need to use a puller in that case, or risk damage to the motor shaft. 

Is the hollow shaft steel? If so, you could make a heat shield for the motor, and heat the hollow shaft with a propane or MAPP gas torch, then carefully pry between the motor housing and the shaft end. Still dangerous for the motor, unless it slides off easily. Aluminum can also be heated, but it is more difficult to tell when you are "too hot" with aluminum...

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46 minutes ago, Seth said:

Hi there, Many thanks for your reply I have had the machine completely stripped down and rewired  and it's running like a dream but as I have said I have obtained a basket assembly with 3 baskets that have various compartments in them but the holder on the machine is too small to fit the new basket assembly.I have obtained a spare shaft assembly that fits the new basket assembly and is the same physical dimensions as the one on the machine so all I want to do is swap them over,but I cannot get the old shaft off the machine.It is a hollow shaft that fits over the motor shaft then there is another larger hollow cover shaft with the cleaning jar lid on.So unless I can get the shaft off the machine I am unable to swap them.Regards,Seth.

Hi there Many thanks for your reply and help,I presume that the basket shaft is some sort of alloy as if you look at the third picture (will enclose it for you) the basket head is all part of the hollow shaft.The motor shaft is steel and the cover shaft with the jar lid/ cover cannot be removed until the basket shaft is taken off the motor shaft.At the moment I have a stripped down movement in the cleaner so I will have a good look at the machine again in the morning as I have plenty of time as I'm retired.Regards,Seth.

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Just now, Seth said:

Hi there Many thanks for your reply and help,I presume that the basket shaft is some sort of alloy as if you look at the third picture (will enclose it for you) the basket head is all part of the hollow shaft.The motor shaft is steel and the cover shaft with the jar lid/ cover cannot be removed until the basket shaft is taken off the motor shaft.At the moment I have a stripped down movement in the cleaner so I will have a good look at the machine again in the morning as I have plenty of time as I'm retired.Regards,Seth.

 

IMG_20201123_124654645_HDR.jpg

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Yes, if that set screw dug into the steel motor shaft, and raised a burr, it will be difficult to slide off, as I imagine it is a somewhat snug fit to the shaft, so it doesn't run out when the screw is tightened.

You may consider a new set screw as well, since that one is pretty badly beat up.

It appears to be an aluminum hollow shaft, so be gentle when heating it.

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Right now when you try to twist the old basket assembly, the motor shaft rotates and you can't apply any real torque to break up the rust and dirt in the joint.

See if you can remove the motor housing until you can get a grip on the rotor shaft. Then you'll be able to slowly jiggle and twist the basket assembly off. Use plenty of penetrating oil, heat, a small hammer, tempered with common sense. 

Good luck!

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8 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Right now when you try to twist the old basket assembly, the motor shaft rotates and you can't apply any real torque to break up the rust and dirt in the joint.

See if you can remove the motor housing until you can get a grip on the rotor shaft. Then you'll be able to slowly jiggle and twist the basket assembly off. Use plenty of penetrating oil, heat, a small hammer, tempered with common sense. 

Good luck!

Good Morning, Many thanks for your reply and help I hope you are keeping safe and well during this tough time,I am just having a cuppa and contemplating what the next move is going to be.I am thinking of using a puller that is used for pulley removal and making up an adaptor to straddle the basket head with a couple of legs that will reach to the motor housing.Then before I use any heat if the puller will grip the basket head and the screw of the puller is tightened up gently onto the adaptor I hope that the shaft will gently move if not then it's back to the drawing board and your suggestions.I purchased this machine and completely rewired it,fitted a new heater plate and it works brilliant but I want to use a 3 tier basket as used on the Elma cleaning machines.Regards and keep safe.Seth.

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I've used gear and bearing pullers with great success on stuck impeller blades and bearings. Sometimes it takes several days to get really stubborn stuff off. I would fix on the puller, apply force on the centre screw and leave it. Then come back and spray more penetrating oil and apply more force on the screw. Normally works but requires patience if you don't want to break anything or bend your motor shaftm

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6 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I've used gear and bearing pullers with great success on stuck impeller blades and bearings. Sometimes it takes several days to get really stubborn stuff off. I would fix on the puller, apply force on the centre screw and leave it. Then come back and spray more penetrating oil and apply more force on the screw. Normally works but requires patience if you don't want to break anything or bend your motor shaftm

Hi there Many thanks for your reply and help,I have taken the top motor shaft cover off to see if I could get to hold the shaft but all there is under the cover is a bearing.I removed the two nuts that appear to hold the bottom motor casing on but even gently tapping the casing it will not split so I am going to make an adaptor for the puller to try and shift the basket shaft.Regards,Seth.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello fellow horologists,

 

I recently purchased a national electric watch cleaner, and after a little fettle seems to be working well, and i just need to re crinkle paint it. however it came with out the baskets ! i do have three or four baskets from an junior L and F machine they look identical but only 2+qtr inches, I have devised a hook system so they can be used and work fine, but thought id ask if any one has any available proper national electric,(manchester) baskets for sale or even swap? 

will photo machine later and post pics looks good! 

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Hello all. 

I recently purchased a national electric mk1 watch cleaning machine from an online auction. It has been modified as in has a 2nd switch to kill power to the rheostat etc. Also has the original heating element with mica disc, and is in need of rewiring. I've found articles on how to update all of the above things that have been a great help in giving me ideas. 

The one thing that is giving me trouble is the under side of the motor. When I got the machine home, I found a load of tar like substance caking the under side of the motor ( the lid for the jars when cleaning with the machine). My question is. If this tar like substance isn't suppose to be there, then what is. I haven't been able to find any images of the underside of the motor/ motor lid. Maybe cork should be used? 

If anyone has the same machine, I would be grateful if the could post an image of their motor lid. Below is an image of mine. I have started to chip away at the tar, and softening it up with some acetone, nail varnish remover. 

Thanks for any help. 

Ps the tar Substance was literally plastered everywhere. Maybe the previous owner didn't like cork. 

Pps I fear the tar may have gotten in to the bearing a little. 

IMG_20201215_113224.jpg

IMG_20201215_113236.jpg

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On 7/26/2020 at 11:35 AM, Fatcapp said:

hi there Moose,  i know this is an older thread, but hoping you can help me?

I am restoring the same machine as this, nuv I have hit a snag; the wires for the motor have broken at the grommet entering the motor!  I have managed to get the motor apart to replace the wires, but it looks like they are attached the the magnetic windings and I can't seem to get them out of the case!?

Did you have to replace your motor wires and if so, how did you do it?

Many thanks in anticipation 

Jon

Hi Jon,

I bought a MK. VR National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine a while ago - without a basket - , started to refurbish it this week. As you can see on the picture I have a similar issue with the motor cable. The spring around the motor cable was not tightly attached to the motor body just hanging in the air so instead of protecting the cable and to take all of the forces it has just added extra weight on the cable and naturally the cable broke. What surprised me that the motor cable directly goes to the motor coils and there is no soldering point. I only have left a short cable section what i could possibly use to solder a new cable on.  And the cable insulation for the remaining cables - even those going to the brushes - is in a very bad shape. One way or another I must add some protection for them. Heat shrink or insulation tape.

Best regards,

lui

motor_cabling.thumb.jpg.c131ece0a539365c78373e232977ef31.jpg

 

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On 11/24/2020 at 12:44 PM, Seth said:

Hi there Many thanks for your reply and help,I have taken the top motor shaft cover off to see if I could get to hold the shaft but all there is under the cover is a bearing.I removed the two nuts that appear to hold the bottom motor casing on but even gently tapping the casing it will not split so I am going to make an adaptor for the puller to try and shift the basket shaft.Regards,Seth.

Hi Seth,

Have you managed to get the shaft off? I managed to get it off using a screwdriver, and wider and wider things ie a file at the end. I had some clearance between the motor body and the aluminium basket shaft then I put a screwdriver in the gap and started to twist it. To protect the aluminium motor casing i used a clock spring which was lying around. You could do the same for the basket shaft but i just used one, slightly damaged the basket shaft, but not too badly and i corrected it with a sand paper later. The motor shaft was corroded - the reason why it was a tight fit - but once the basket shaft moved a tiny bit i knew I won the battle. When the screwdriver was not wide enough i used something wider until i got the basket shaft off. I cant show you the corrosion now because i cleaned up the motor shaft already.

I dont know if it helps as I cannot see if you have the same clearance between the motor casing and the basket shaft. 

- i took pics for illustration -

Take care,

lui

IMG_20201223_131828.thumb.jpg.6dcea581423920f810f211e9a44765ae.jpg

IMG_20201223_131711.jpg

IMG_20201223_131750.jpg

 

Edited by luiazazrambo
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On 12/15/2020 at 12:14 PM, Bertie1982 said:

Hello all. 

I recently purchased a national electric mk1 watch cleaning machine from an online auction. It has been modified as in has a 2nd switch to kill power to the rheostat etc. Also has the original heating element with mica disc, and is in need of rewiring. I've found articles on how to update all of the above things that have been a great help in giving me ideas. 

The one thing that is giving me trouble is the under side of the motor. When I got the machine home, I found a load of tar like substance caking the under side of the motor ( the lid for the jars when cleaning with the machine). My question is. If this tar like substance isn't suppose to be there, then what is. I haven't been able to find any images of the underside of the motor/ motor lid. Maybe cork should be used? 

If anyone has the same machine, I would be grateful if the could post an image of their motor lid. Below is an image of mine. I have started to chip away at the tar, and softening it up with some acetone, nail varnish remover. 

Thanks for any help. 

Ps the tar Substance was literally plastered everywhere. Maybe the previous owner didn't like cork. 

Pps I fear the tar may have gotten in to the bearing a little. 

IMG_20201215_113224.jpg

IMG_20201215_113236.jpg

Hi Bertie,

I have an MK. VR which looks different but I have cork there:

IMG_20201223_142304.thumb.jpg.43bec0a988b84067a8d0747adf8cca39.jpg

Best regards,

lui

 

 

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I am in the process of refurbishing my cleaning machine and after soldering a motor cable to the coils and putting the motor together the motor did not turn, only if i pressed one side of the motor casing otherwise it was stuck. I took it apart again to see what can be done. I noticed that there is a likely to be bronze bearing what can actually turn as it is like a ball and it is surrounded by a line of felt sheet. What is the purpose of this felt sheet? Shall it be soaked in oil, and for what purpose? It would only lubricate the outside of the bearing so I cannot see the point? Well it needs to be able to turn a bit but only once when you put the motor together, so we could achieve a smooth run and the motor would not stuck. Am I missing something here? Why is that felt there?

IMG_20201230_180705.thumb.jpg.c80db01661c724be1973072f248e27fb.jpg

IMG_20201230_180722.thumb.jpg.e8d2cc6518d90f4c83141335010c1f48.jpg

IMG_20201230_180547.thumb.jpg.6624e857aed4e078de61578d816dd00e.jpg

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It's like an incabloc.  The bushing is meant to be able to pivot and shift, hence the spherical outer shape.  The felt is like a spring to keep it centered and not rattle as much.  The bushing is not supposed to rotate with the motor shaft with the felt acting like it's the bushing.  It would wear too fast and get too hot and have too much friction.

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On 12/23/2020 at 2:11 PM, luiazazrambo said:

Hi Seth,

Have you managed to get the shaft off? I managed to get it off using a screwdriver, and wider and wider things ie a file at the end. I had some clearance between the motor body and the aluminium basket shaft then I put a screwdriver in the gap and started to twist it. To protect the aluminium motor casing i used a clock spring which was lying around. You could do the same for the basket shaft but i just used one, slightly damaged the basket shaft, but not too badly and i corrected it with a sand paper later. The motor shaft was corroded - the reason why it was a tight fit - but once the basket shaft moved a tiny bit i knew I won the battle. When the screwdriver was not wide enough i used something wider until i got the basket shaft off. I cant show you the corrosion now because i cleaned up the motor shaft already.

I dont know if it helps as I cannot see if you have the same clearance between the motor casing and the basket shaft. 

- i took pics for illustration -

Take care,

lui

IMG_20201223_131828.thumb.jpg.6dcea581423920f810f211e9a44765ae.jpg

IMG_20201223_131711.jpg

IMG_20201223_131750.jpg

 

Hi there,Many thanks for your reply I still haven't managed to get the shaft off and my shaft is covered by another tube with a spring that presses the cleaning jar lid down when in use to stop the fluid from leaking out.This tube has a flange that has 3 screws into the motor casing did you have this on your machine?? If so did you remove the flange screws to get access to the shaft.I enclose photos so you can see my set up.Regards and keep safe.Seth.

IMG_20210105_153159114.jpg

IMG_20210105_153140894_MP.jpg

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14 minutes ago, Seth said:

Hi there,Many thanks for your reply I still haven't managed to get the shaft off and my shaft is covered by another tube with a spring that presses the cleaning jar lid down when in use to stop the fluid from leaking out.This tube has a flange that has 3 screws into the motor casing did you have this on your machine?? If so did you remove the flange screws to get access to the shaft.I enclose photos so you can see my set up.Regards and keep safe.Seth.

IMG_20210105_153159114.jpg

IMG_20210105_153140894_MP.jpg

Hi Seth, nope I have not got that, even though I got the same version MK. VR. Try to remove that screws and extra tube so you could get an access to the motor shaft. Take care, lui

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