National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine

[maclerche]

Please note that Pearl Janta baskets and racks is that a substantial poorer quality than the original Elma. I have just sold a similar set for the same reason as I did not find it useful.

I bought instead of a complete Elmaset set of Cousins

A little hint! If you buy "basket complete" then you will have to pay 199,50 + vat. If you buy mount and Holder with baskets for themselves will be  cheaper.  Lid/holder R37669 27,95 GBP Baskets and holder C0386 109,95 GBP Total 137,90 + vat 

 

[JMElam]

Thank you all for your input! I am unable to upload an image for some reason? I keep getting a triangle with an exclamation mark a few seconds after clicking upload.

Until It allows me to upload, if I understand correctly. I should be able to purchase this https://www.hswalsh.com/product/elma-64mm-basket-complete-rm90-superelite-solvex-se-solvex-rm-hc516

and just fix it to the shaft via the grub screw?

 

You have a number of options open to you, try and find a National electric complete basket off the bay but I think you would have more luck finding a bag of rocking horse poo than that. The national uses a three prong bayonet fitting that is 80mm across, the basket fits to a shaft with bayonet fitting  that is connected directly to the motor.

The photo above shows a National basket compared to probably the most common type of basket which is a Elma basket these are approx 70mm across, the dividers from the elma will fit snugley into the national basket so divisions can be created in the basket using these, I can with my national basket create 3 useful layers using elma dividers.

The Elma bayonet fitting is not wide enough at 70mm to fit directly to a national machine, but you can remove the shaft and fitting from the national by loosening the grub screw that hold the shaft to the motor and replace it with a Elma shaft and fitting again held in place with a grub screw, this would allow you to use elma baskets and dividers on the National machine,

you can also buy useful little baskets that will fit in your National such as these,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16mm-Brass-basket-parts-holder-ultrasonic-cleaning-mesh-screw-type-watch-tool-/301581103372?hash=item4637a2710c:g:hpcAAOSwhQhYxwhS

Complete baskets and dividers can be bought for elma type machines new such as this,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watch-cleaning-machine-janta-pearl-brand-spare-parts-bottles-and-baskets-/291879006669?var=&hash=item43f55831cd:m:mp1w4YBMDAelzeQs1e3Twkg

I am of course providing this information assuming that your National machine has the original basket and shaft fitted, so a photo would be useful of your machine to confirm,

you will have to at any rate to keep your eyes peeled on the bay but with a little adaption your options are open in order to have a useful machine.

 

[wls1971]

No you have the wrong end of the stick or as it is the "shaft" at the moment I will post a explination with pictures shortly.

[wls1971]

Below is a picture of the shaft that fits directley over the spindle from the motor at one end is a grub screw that attaches it to the spindle of the motor the other end is where the bayonet fitting and basket are fitted again on the Elma held with a grub screw

.On the national machine the shaft and bayonet fitting are all one unit and attach to the motor spindle via a grub screw.

It would be useful to know the model number of the machine you have if you cant supply pics

Below is the same shaft with basket fitted these do turn up on ebay its where I got mine the advantage of switching to elma type is that the National are long defunct and Elma are still plentiful,

But national machines do turn up quite cheap if you can find one with basket that may be another option.

Below is a two part national basket which is pretty much what they came with

The elma basket dividers can be fitted into these

And small mini baskets can be placed in any

So with a bit of adaption or the use of elma basket parts you should be able to cobble together a useful set without spending a fortune.

 

 

 

[JMElam]

For some reason it will only let me upload with the image orientated in this direction? weird right? As you can see it appears like the Nationals shaft for the basket contains 2 screws? Does this mean I could attach my previous linked item?

 

[wls1971]

Hi this is a much older machine than mine which is a mark six please provide the following measurment,

 

if you can undo the bottom grub screw and try and remove the bayonet attachment you will have to remove the three pronged spring which is held to the middle of the shaft via a long screw,

If the bayonet attachment comes off you need to measure the diameter of the very bottom of the shaft that fits into the bayonet attachment and let me know the measurement I will then check the elma shaft and see if they are the same if so yes you would be able to fit the elma baskets without having to change shafts.

 

[clockboy]

This guy always has used baskets. It's in the USA so measurements given are in imperial.

The actual baskets that fit into the main carrier basket do not have be really snug a bit of play is fine.

http://www.execulink.com/~lfoord/tools.html

[JMElam]

The grub screw is rusted to the point it's head is just crushing under pressure of the screwdriver. The measurement is around 74mm (difficult to measure correctly without removing)

[Jon]

 

Hi,

 

This is the first time posting on here and hope someone can help?

I have recently bought a National electric watch cleaning machine on eBay. I rewired it and bought L & R Extra Fine Watch Cleaning Solution and Rinse No. 3 in a three jar set up.

The problem I have is the watch parts don't come out clean. I put the basket in each jar for 12 mins and then dry over a really low heat hair dryer I rigged up in the watch cleaning machine, instead of the ceramic heating element. The fluid is half an inch above the basket when submerged and the metal wave breaks in the jar help the fluid not foam up. Technically everything is perfect. I have even put the watch parts in different parts of the basket to make sure it wasn't the way I was loading the parts into it. I originally put all the parts into wash and rinse without precleaning or pegging out in any way, to see if the solutions would clean the parts without having to pre-clean. They don't even look like they have been cleaned. Although the brass wheels like a lot shinier. Admittedly these are watches from the 60's that are filthy. It seems a long way to do it if I have to pre-clean all gunky watch parts, like pith and pegging the leaves etc. Is that usual practice?

I have added some pictures. I have recently sanded the machine down, ready for a respray, that's why the aluminium sign is not attached. The pic of the two jars are: The big jar is the first clean jar, which turned this green colour after my first wash. I think it was the dirty baskets, which I thoroughly cleaned after. (hindsight is a great tool!) The little jar is the colour it is when fresh. The two rinse jars are still colourless.

If I have quite clean parts can I put them straight through the watch cleaning machine, or should I pre-clean them as well? I understand that pegging the jewels is always a good idea, as it can increase amplitude by as much as another 20 degrees.

It feels as though I'm doing something wrong, as I'm expecting this process to be easier and quicker than my lighter fluid, IPA and sonic cleaner. Can anyone shed some light on this please? It would be much appreciated

[clockboy]

The colour of the fluid looks wrong. The rinse is clear and the cleaner a very light brownish colour NOT green. Was there contamination in the cleaning jar. The only other issue I can think of is if the jars are not spinning at the correct speed. 

[jguitron]

I have a similar machine and it does the job but what’s well accepted as far as I can tell, is that there has to be an ultrasonic component to the cleaning process. Spinning is all fine and good but adding the US is huge. Of course, that brings the cost of a washing machine way up.

Hopefully rectifying your solution situation will give you better results.

Cheers!




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[wls1971]

I have a national watch cleaning machine similar to the one you have the basket set up looks very different to the one I have attached to mine, on mine there is a fan like part that the basket attaches to this churns up cleaning fluids as it spins ensuring good agitation of the fluid.

The brass basket holder you have looks very corroded i would be inclined to think the brass is reacting to the cleaning fluid causing discolouring of the fluid maybe re chroming would help with this.

Does the rheostat speed control function correctly this machine would date from the 1950's so it could be worn and not spinning fast enough.

[oldhippy]

The colour of that cleaner is wrong, new cleaner should be colourless. The jars do not spin because it is not automatic (clockboy is having a senior moment) I get them too. L & R are probably the best you can buy. Do not buy ultra-sonic fluid because your machine in not of that type. 12 minutes in each jar is fine. Not sure, about your heating chamber and the time you have it spinning in there. If you raise the basket, each time and spin off that will help when switching jars and the heating to dry.  I think it’s down to the cleaning solution.   

[Jon]

The cleaning fluid was colourless. It changed to green the first time around, which makes me think the baskets were a lot dirtier than I first thought. I think the shaft was probably changed, that's why there is another basket arrangement.

I think that green colour might well be the brass reaction maybe, although I'm surprised at this happening as brass wheels are being cleaned.

Does anyone put dirty parts straight in without pre-cleaning and gets a good result with this type of machine without the ultrasonics?

That's what I really need to know, as then I need to look at my process rather than the fluids etc.

[wls1971]

7 minutes ago, Jon said:

Does anyone put dirty parts straight in without pre-cleaning and gets a good result with this type of machine without the ultrasonics?

Yes there is no reason why this machine should not be able to clean parts provided it is running correctly .

I do on occasion pre clean parts that are extremely dirty, i.e parts that have oil that has gone gummy on the plates but other than that these machines are simple but effective at cleaning.

I cannot comment on the solutions you are using but I have been using Quadralene clock watch and instrument cleaner and rinse it has worked very well for me.

[Jon]

 

7 minutes ago, wls1971 said:

Yes there is no reason why this machine should not be able to clean parts provided it is running correctly .

I do on occasion pre clean parts that are extremely dirty, i.e parts that have oil that has gone gummy on the plates but other than that these machines are simple but effective at cleaning.

I cannot comment on the solutions you are using but I have been using Quadralene clock watch and instrument cleaner and rinse it has worked very well for me.

Thanks for letting me know that it can work well... It feels a though I'm pushing rocks uphill!

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to change the rheostat, although I did rewire everything before even turning it on... It was 1960's wiring after all! I've got a variable voltage controller, which doesn't fry the motor, as it takes into account other factors than just dropping voltage.

I've attached a pic of the old rheostat wiring and the voltage regulator. I'm going to have to change that basket. That brass is not helping at all. If I can up the speed without it shaking itself to death, change the cleaning fluid and change the basket, then I reckon it was worth the investment and it surely has to be quicker than hand cleaning/ultrasonically cleaning with lighter fluid/IPA.

I'll keep you up to date how it's going and the next results I have after the alterations. The basket assemblies are incredibly expensive, so I'll keep my eyes open on eBay.

Thanks everyone! Really friendly bunch of guys!

[TimFitz]

Welcome to WRT                                                                                 My watch cleaning machine works perfectly every time. That's because it's me. Part of the "fun, challenge,learning " comes with doing it by hand. But that's just me.

If I had a business where I had a bunch in the " Q " I would want a machine.

[clockboy]

3 hours ago, jguitron said:

I have a similar machine and it does the job but what’s well accepted as far as I can tell, is that there has to be an ultrasonic component to the cleaning process. Spinning is all fine and good but adding the US is huge. Of course, that brings the cost of a washing machine way up.

Hopefully rectifying your solution situation will give you better results.

Cheers!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is not correct although I always thought it was indeed the case. I have a L&R Vari-matic that is broken. This machine has three jars + ultrasonic. Not being able to fix it I purchased new JANTA cleaning machine (made in India) which is a copy of a Elma. This machine has no ultrasonic. I thought it would not clean as well as the L&R BUT it cleans really, really  well. It is not solidly built as the L&R our Elma but for a keen amateur such as myself only servicing a couple of watches a week it is perfect for my needs anyway.

 

 

[clockboy]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

 

The colour of that cleaner is wrong, new cleaner should be colourless. The jars do not spin because it is not automatic (clockboy is having a senior moment) I get them too. L & R are probably the best you can buy. Do not buy ultra-sonic fluid because your machine in not of that type. 12 minutes in each jar is fine. Not sure, about your heating chamber and the time you have it spinning in there. If you raise the basket, each time and spin off that will help when switching jars and the heating to dry.  I think it’s down to the cleaning solution.   

Senior moment indeed. I meant the baskets.

[jguitron]

That is not correct although I always thought it was indeed the case. I have a L&R Vari-matic that is broken. This machine has three jars + ultrasonic. Not being able to fix it I purchased new JANTA cleaning machine (made in India) which is a copy of a Elma. This machine has no ultrasonic. I thought it would not clean as well as the L&R BUT it cleans really, really  well. It is not solidly built as the L&R our Elma but for a keen amateur such as myself only servicing a couple of watches a week it is perfect for my needs anyway.
 

 

Exactly the one I got! [emoji1303][emoji1303][emoji1303]

I love it. It does the work well on 90% of the parts. I do notice a difference when I go to class and they use the fully automated $15,000 one with ultrasonic heads. Of course, having that quality makes it easy to dismiss anything else without US.

But don’t get me wrong. I love my machine and I think it can deliver great results.




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[JohnR725]

I don't suppose you can do a before and after for us of a watch? In other words show us why it's not clean afterwords.

watch cleaning fluids are made up of a variety of chemicals to do a variety of things. Ideally they take all the bad stuff and put it in the solution than with each progressive rinsing they reduce the concentration of that solution on the plates and we end up with a bright shiny clean watch. The Ammonium Hydroxide found in the solution takes off the tarnish makes the plates look shiny but it has a problem? Once you go beyond bright and shiny it starts to etched the plates. if the solution is hot then it's going to start etching much faster. Personally I think 12 minutes is too long.  try five minutes and see if the solution turns blue or green like it's doing now and see how things look.

I've attached the material safety sheets see you can see the chemicals in your cleaning fluid. I would really like to see a material safety sheets from 20 or 30 years ago as I don't think the cleaners today are quite as aggressive that cleaning than they once were.

then if you're cleaning old watches pocket watches for instance the lubricants tend to harden up really hard. They're not just going to wash off in the cleaning machine they have to be mechanically removed with peg wood.

 

http://www.lrultrasonics.com/msds/Extra Fine Watch Cleaning Solution.pdf

[ecodec]

5 hours ago, TimFitz said:

Welcome to WRT                                                                                 My watch cleaning machine works perfectly every time. That's because it's me. Part of the "fun, challenge,learning " comes with doing it by hand. But that's just me.

If I had a business where I had a bunch in the " Q " I would want a machine.

Just like me. I brush, peg out and then U/S clean in Naphtha Fast.  Balances and scape I use Acetone then Naphtha for final rinse. Works well for me. Mike.

 

 

[clockboy]

I have used Elma and L&R both work well but I found the Elma a bit pungent. As far as the cleaning results I checked using a microscope and all was spotless 

[chadders1966]

Cleaning fluid can be easily contaminated, as you have guessed looks like yours might have been. As others have said the fluid goes yellow/brown with normal use. Personally I peg out before and after cleaning just to be sure. All watch parts go in the cleaning machine, case parts in the ultrasonic. I find the machine alone does a much better job than the ultrasonic alone used to do. I also keep a spare jar of used cleaning fluid to preclean dirty movements in before going in the machine - the dirtier parts are, the quicker the cleaning fluid is used up.

I use the cleanliness of the parts coming out to judge when the fluid needs replacing, not a set amount of watches cleaned but whatever you do it does need replacing regularly. If I remember correctly the jars on your machine are particularly big so unfortunately go through a lot of fluid. As John said about 5 minutes should be enough for cleaning cycle. Also don't try and get it to spin too fast during cleaning. On my machine I have the speed for cleaning set just below the speed at which foam would start to form.

Stephen

[oldhippy]

If you have a good cleaning machine using the right fluids. There should be no need for pegging out and doing all the other stuff. Cleaning the cases and bracelets, I always did this in hot soapy water and dried in a cloth.