Jump to content

National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine


Recommended Posts

Hi Moose, it seems after the Mantel Clock i follow you to repair a National Watch Cleaning Machine, i got a MK VR though. Going to post pictures later, it was only delivered this morning. I found a related video:

What happened to your videos, they don't want to start?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW, and realizing this is an older thread, I too have issues with my L&R cleaners leaving residue on parts after cleaning. Sometimes it seems like they went in cleaner than they came out. And even if the cleaner left something on the parts I'd expect that the rinse would cut through whatever it was and rinse it off, but it did not.

Once the cleaner has sat in the jars for a week or more, it leaves a sticky brown substance on the jar and the metal parts within. This can be after only cleaning one movement. I often end up emptying the solutions and cleaning this residue with denatured alcohol before refilling. It leaves the same sticky film on the SS containers on my WatchMaster ultrasonic.

I'm pretty sure that the cleaner and rinse were the same as the OP's. They were the solvent based, non-ammoniated versions. I used them in both an old L&R mechanical cleaner and a WatchMaster ultrasonic and got the same disappointing results. It seemed like I'd clean one watch, get decent results, and all subsequent cleanings this was not so. None of the watches were visibly over-oiled or super grimy.  I'll likely be trying an ammoniated Zenith solution next time I order cleaners and hope for the best. Cheers.

Edited by MrRoundel
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/14/2020 at 4:10 PM, MrRoundel said:

FWIW, and realizing this is an older thread, I too have issues with my L&R cleaners leaving residue on parts after cleaning. Sometimes it seems like they went in cleaner than they came out. And even if the cleaner left something on the parts I'd expect that the rinse would cut through whatever it was and rinse it off, but it did not.

Once the cleaner has sat in the jars for a week or more, it leaves a sticky brown substance on the jar and the metal parts within. This can be after only cleaning one movement. I often end up emptying the solutions and cleaning this residue with denatured alcohol before refilling. It leaves the same sticky film on the SS containers on my WatchMaster ultrasonic.

I'm pretty sure that the cleaner and rinse were the same as the OP's. They were the solvent based, non-ammoniated versions. I used them in both an old L&R mechanical cleaner and a WatchMaster ultrasonic and got the same disappointing results. It seemed like I'd clean one watch, get decent results, and all subsequent cleanings this was not so. None of the watches were visibly over-oiled or super grimy.  I'll likely be trying an ammoniated Zenith solution next time I order cleaners and hope for the best. Cheers.

I sorted my problem of the residue by changing my cleaning fluid and rinse. I now use 'Fine Clean' and 'Fine Rinse' by a company called 'Quadralene' https://quadralene.com/

They don't advertise it and you can't buy it directly from their website, you have to call them. The great thing is you get 5 litre containers, instead of 3.8 litres that L & R sell and it is a lot cheaper. I think it works out about £70 with delivery, whereas L & R fluids will cost over £100 and you get 20% less fluid. No brainer!

It's non ammoniated, but works a dream

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried something new with my 70 year old Elma cleaner yesterday. As always, I use Elma Red 1:9 (ammoniated) for about six minutes, then rinse in deionised water for about 2 minutes, and a finally rinse in Suprol Pro (really nasty stuff) for about 2 minutes. However, this time around, as I was just cleaning a mainspring, its barrel, lid, and arbor, I ran the motor as hard as I could. This made the Elma Red look like pink milk, but the result was pretty amazing. I've always run the motor pretty moderately for fear of destroying the hairspring but the results have just been so so, requiring quite a bit of after cleaning. The next time around I will "put the pedal to the metal" and see how it goes :devil:

EDIT: When using water based cleaning solutions (like the ones I describe in the above paragraph), be very careful not to overdo it. The first time I tried my Elma machine I ran it for something like 40 minutes, and the entire movement got stained and even some rust started to develop. It took me a day of manual cleaning and polishing to get everything in acceptable order :(

Edited by VWatchie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I tried something new with my 70 year old Elma cleaner yesterday. As always, I use Elma Red 1:9 (ammoniated) for about six minutes, then rinse in deionised water for about 2 minutes, and a finally rinse in Suprol Pro (really nasty stuff) for about 2 minutes. However, this time around, as I was just cleaning a mainspring, its barrel, lid, and arbor, I ran the motor as hard as I could. This made the Elma Red look like pink milk, but the result was pretty amazing. I've always run the motor pretty moderately for fear of destroying the hairspring but the results have just been so so, requiring quite a bit of after cleaning. The next time around I will "put the pedal to the metal" and see how it goes :devil:

EDIT: When using water based cleaning solutions (like the ones I describe in the above paragraph), be very careful not to overdo it. The first time I tried my Elma machine I ran it for something like 40 minutes, and the entire movement got stained and even some rust started to develop. It took me a day of manual cleaning and polishing to get everything in acceptable order :(

When you say "pretty moderately" what do you mean by that? Have you got that vortex seen in the video above when you ran it "pretty moderately"? I am assuming Elma would work the same way as a National one? Would it be possible for you to send us a video?  I have Elma 1:9 and Suprol pro too here, but have not got the chance to try it out yet as my National is not in a great shape yet, received a few days ago.

 

IMG_20200714_150920.jpg

IMG_20200714_151948.jpg

IMG_20200714_162530.jpg

IMG_20200714_162920.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2020 at 11:41 PM, luiazazrambo said:

When you say "pretty moderately" what do you mean by that? Have you got that vortex seen in the video above when you ran it "pretty moderately"?

With “pretty moderately” I mean exactly what you see in the video.

On 7/16/2020 at 11:41 PM, luiazazrambo said:

I am assuming Elma would work the same way as a National one?

Yes, exactly the same way!

The next time around I will run the motor to the point that the solution is about to spill over the edge of the glass jar. My only worry is that the hairspring may not survive it. What do you think? What’s your experiences?

Edited by VWatchie
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never ever used a watch cleaning machine in my life yet. I have to resurrect my National Watch Cleaning Machine you can see above first. Its going to be slow as I have a very limited time, but I am preparing it slowly. Bought a roll of 2 mm thick cork yesterday for jar lid seal and I am in a hunt for black and white, cloth covered, 3 cores cable. Seems that everybody wants black and white for some reason. I am also going for a holiday/ remote working session so I will be without my precious toys for a month or so! What a nightmare!!! :D

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have 2 theories why the cleaning machine is not cleaning properly. 

I noticed that L&R Extra Fine contains ammonium hydroxide and propanol. If it becomes contaminated with water, it would react with oil and produce a soap by a process of saponification. The reason for the fluid turning green may also be evidence of the presence of water in the fluid. The gummy residue is soap scum.

My second theory is the rotation of the basket is too fast, and the level of fluid in the jar is not high enough to prevent the fluid inside the basket from being spun out. Hence the centre of the basket is actually running dry.

Perhaps a chemist and physicist can confirm my hypothesis. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi there Moose,  i know this is an older thread, but hoping you can help me?

I am restoring the same machine as this, nuv I have hit a snag; the wires for the motor have broken at the grommet entering the motor!  I have managed to get the motor apart to replace the wires, but it looks like they are attached the the magnetic windings and I can't seem to get them out of the case!?

Did you have to replace your motor wires and if so, how did you do it?

Many thanks in anticipation 

Jon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Good Morning I hope that you are all keeping safe and well during this tough time.I hope someone can help me with a small problem I have.I have recently purchased a National Watch Cleaning Machine MK VR and everything is working apart from the cable from the heating element has come unsoldered at the switch.I have checked the element with a multimeter and it appears OK.The wiring is in a poor state so I will be replacing all of it with new heat resistant cabling.Can anyone help me with where does the indicator lamp for the heater connect to as the wires are just hanging loose.Also can anyone suggest a suitable connector to use between the central cable to the motor as the existing one is cracked and I will need to replace it.All help will be gratefully received.Regards, Photos and wiring sketch enclosed.

IMG_20200828_104530597.jpg

IMG_20200828_090942747.jpg

IMG_20200828_104840224.jpg

IMG_20200828_101308226.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Good Afternoon,I hope you are all keeping safe and well during this tough time.Just a quick question to ask if anyone knows how to remove the motor shaft and basket holder from my machine.There is a small grub screw that appears to go into the shaft just below the motor housing but after removing this screw the shaft is still not moving any ideas????Well I have completely rewired this unit with flexible heat resistant cable and just for extra protection I have also fitted glass fibre sleeving on cables near the heating element.I have also fitted new switches,neon and a PTC Ceramic heating element.I fitted the new element on an aluminium disc of 5 mm thickness cut to 100 mm dia,this resulted in me having to raise the heatin chamber chimney by about 25-30 mm to clear the new heating element mounting bracket.The system is now running great and hopefully I will get many more years out of this unit.Photos enclosed including the old wiring,switches,neon and heater,Regards to all keep safe,Seth.

IMG_20200914_115749322_HDR.jpg

IMG_20200914_115831830_HDR.jpg

IMG_20200914_120213973.jpg

IMG_20200914_120248197_MP.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That sounds like a great restoration. 
 

Have you tried tapping the basket assembly to free it? You could place something like a small spanner above where the basket head attaches to the shaft and then tap the spanner with a hammer. If the basket head is cast aluminium then it may be brittle. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hello I have also just purchase a 1940s national electric watch cleaner - very similar although with a new flex and 13 amp plug, will need a good lean up all complete but no baskets that i can see yet! Are you still in discusion i would very much like to hear what you did on refurb, i have some crinkle paint from a car resto and hammerite and cork tiles too.

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Hi guys I think that old hippy is correct, it opens the gates for china to manufacture aftermarket spare parts. considering that they already do work on behalf of the Swiss I guess this decision gives the a little more legitimacy to tool up and I am sure they will take advantage of the situation either with or without the blessing of the Swiss watch industry  Having read about the protectionist machinations of the Swiss in the history of Europe they were the only ones to get fat at everybody else’s expense. I think the outcome could have been guessed at but ,  fair play to Cousins UK for standing up to them.  Now the question,  will everybody boycott Swiss watches and Swatch, no way they will still fill their coffers.  Me I stick with the Japanese once renowned for cheap shitty watches who came good through industrial effort and don’t for get the Russians that most dismiss as low grade crap. Wouldn’t buy a swatch product ever how about you all.? a
    • Hold the crown when in winding position, move the click away from the crown wheel, and then while holding the crown let it slowly unwind. I recollect that you must remove the automatic device bridge first, but maybe I'm wrong. You can first try without removing the automatic device bridge.
    • nevenbekriev- You nailed it with your description of me and my reaction when the clock started ticking again. I am a newbie.  I love the sound and idea of mechanical clocks but the idea of owning one and trying to keep them running has never appealed to me. My wife bought this one and an antique German wall clock.  When I looked into having someone repair them for me, the universal response was "it's really expensive to work on them, you should just replace the movement". So, I had nothing to lose, I started researching them and opened them up. The wife is happy because she hears the sound of the clocks again. But I have gone down the "accuracy" rabbit hole. In the vertical position, the balance wheel was not floating. It was sitting on the bottom of the frame. I adjusted the lower spring collet and got it floating. It easily passed the 270 degree 3 to 5 minute oscillation test. It took 8 minutes for the wheel to completely stop moving.  I put it the unit back in the movement and checked the safety pin. It does not touch the safety roller anywhere in +/-270 degrees rotation from neutral position. But the amplitude of the rotation with the spring fully wound is weak based on what you are saying. It rotates +/-90 degrees from the neutral position.  No, I did not take the movement completely apart.  That seemed way outside my skill set at the time. There is a reason I became an electrical engineer and not a mechanical engineer. I am much more comfortable with moving electrons than tiny moving metal parts. Will I do it in the long run? Anything can happen. I don't seem to be able to let it go.
    • Isn't that the same guy who told Zelenskyy to escalate the war with Russia/Putin when they already had a peace deal? 2 years later and we have half a million young Ukranian boys dead. He doesn't seem very clever...
×
×
  • Create New...