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National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine


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Hi

I have an old (very old!) watch cleaning machine that has recently been sparking a lot from the motor and cutting out. I took out the carbon brushes which are worn away - photos below. Given the age of the motor I don't see the point looking for genuine replacements, I thought I could get some generic off EBay or use some spares from another motor and shape to fit. I've no idea how long they should be though, and whether it matters providing they fit. Can anyone advise me? Thanks.

Stephen

 

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Stephen, the brushes look as though they still have plenty of meat on them. Have you had a look at the commutator? It may need cleaning. Have a look at this: m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBLwUG_AdU

Thanks guys. Rather than getting new brushes I've just done as suggested and cleaned everything. Now working as good as new - well, as good as a decades old machine anyway. Pity the speed control no l

If the bush is sintered then it will hold lubricant inside the material.

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Stephen, the brushes look as though they still have plenty of meat on them. Have you had a look at the commutator? It may need cleaning.

Have a look at this:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBLwUG_AdU

Edited by clockwatcher
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Could also be bad contact.

One of the springs looks to have been stretched. The other "normal" one might not be exerting enough pressure to keep the carbon brush in contact with the commutator.

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Thanks guys. Rather than getting new brushes I've just done as suggested and cleaned everything. Now working as good as new - well, as good as a decades old machine anyway. Pity the speed control no longer works very well;).

Stephen

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  • 1 year later...

Hello all,

I recently bought a decent vintage National Watch Cleaning Machine on Ebay. The motor works beautifully, the heater was working, but the wiring was awful so I decided to rewire. (pictures attached)

On taking the machine apart, I found that the heating element was damaged. The ceramic holder is cracked in half and I don't like the look of the weakened filament. Does anyone know if I am likely to find a replacement, whether there is an alternative I could use as a heating element or if there is some way of making such a thing? Any advice, opinion or help would be very gratefully received.

Many thanks

Nick

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Hi,

I have an almost identical machine and it had pretty much the same problem. Others will have different opinions I guess, but my thinking was to get rid of the exposed element which I did not like and utilise something else. I would suggest that as these machines use mains power, unless you are sure of what you are doing, get qualified assistance.

What I did was to utilse a 100 watt halogen globe and socket. In Australia I was able to access 240 volt versions together with the appropriate socket. Once installed plenty of drying heat was available and the low height of the globe permitted a good gap between it and the basket.

Good luck

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6 hours ago, Hamish said:

Hi,

I have an almost identical machine and it had pretty much the same problem. Others will have different opinions I guess, but my thinking was to get rid of the exposed element which I did not like and utilise something else. I would suggest that as these machines use mains power, unless you are sure of what you are doing, get qualified assistance.

What I did was to utilse a 100 watt halogen globe and socket. In Australia I was able to access 240 volt versions together with the appropriate socket. Once installed plenty of drying heat was available and the low height of the globe permitted a good gap between it and the basket.

Good luck

Thanks Hamish. That is a great idea. Did you use a reflector bulb? If so did you mount it facing up towards the heater or was lying on its side. I am wondering about clearance between the bulb and  the heater? Is it the type in the picture here? This one is 75w. 100w doesn't seem to be available here.

thanks again really helpful.

par16gu10.jpg

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Hi the one I used was not like that. See photos it is much smaller and still of high wattage (heat). The globe just unplugs but I have not had to replace it as yet. As I said this will involve rewiring so be careful. IMG_2151.thumb.JPG.0c6afd3592e25b73e1707IMG_2149.thumb.JPG.ba0f46f6311efe2121798


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Just a thought, Araldite AW 106 would fix that ceramic base (good up to about 180C) and a new element could be constructed perhaps using insulated or probably non insulated (but with shielding in place) nichrome wire combined with a variable control, it's a bit more of a fiddle though.  Some people also cannibalise a cheap variable heat control soldering iron and use that as a heat source which means it is a straight forward plug in job once the element is fixed into place.

Cheers,

Vic

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On 13/01/2017 at 2:15 PM, Vich said:

Just a thought, Araldite AW 106 would fix that ceramic base (good up to about 180C) and a new element could be constructed perhaps using insulated or probably non insulated (but with shielding in place) nichrome wire combined with a variable control, it's a bit more of a fiddle though.  Some people also cannibalise a cheap variable heat control soldering iron and use that as a heat source which means it is a straight forward plug in job once the element is fixed into place.

Cheers,

Vic

Thanks Vic,

I decided to go with a generic heating element, 110W. It takes a little while to heat up, but seems ok. I was worried of going higher in wattage, because nowhere does it say what the circuit can take, so decided to play safe.

I also added a ceramic block for safety.

Thanks again to all for their ideas. Loved Hamish's light bulb concept, but no one here in the UK I have asked has seen these bulbs.

Machine is re wired and works great now.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Dear all,

I have recently refurbished a vintage National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine. Working great. However, although I have the main basket, does anyone know if there are inner compartment baskets available for these?

I don't like the thought of putting all the watch parts in the main basket and have them whacking around.

any thoughts? Thanks

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You don't say what modal it is but I have seen National baskets on ebay, it consists of 1 main basket a small cover with small indentations for train, screws and other small parts then the top cover which is flat. In ebay type in watch cleaning machine that will cover all things to do with Cleaning Machines for watches.

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I have a national electric model mark 6, I purchased a complete basket of ebay to use with the one I already had on the machine it was listed as having come from a elma machine.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bergeon-Watchmaker-Machine-Elma-basket-/172422592431?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=KLgcBrOFSBeSKrUBFNcu39dPkLs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I dont want to over complicate matters but this is what I found, the inner parts of the basket I bought will fit into my old basket snuggly and create new compartments the cover on the basket I bought fit my old basket, and obviously the small holding basket will fit in the compartments. The basket frame I bought will not fit the bayonet fitting on my machine as it is not wide enough, but the lot I bought came with a shaft fitted so the complete basket assembly can be removed from the machine  motor by undoing one screw and the one I bought can then be fitted to the machine again held by a screw on the shaft.

I think the main diffrence between machines is the widths of baskets and the bayonet fittings on the basket frames, the elma type are narrower but if you can find a set cheap on ebay they should still be useful to you.

Edited by wls1971
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3 hours ago, wls1971 said:

I have a national electric model mark 6, I purchased a complete basket of ebay to use with the one I already had on the machine it was listed as having come from a elma machine.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bergeon-Watchmaker-Machine-Elma-basket-/172422592431?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=KLgcBrOFSBeSKrUBFNcu39dPkLs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I dont want to over complicate matters but this is what I found, the inner parts of the basket I bought will fit into my old basket snuggly and create new compartments the cover on the basket I bought fit my old basket, and obviously the small holding basket will fit in the compartments. The basket frame I bought will not fit the bayonet fitting on my machine as it is not wide enough, but the lot I bought came with a shaft fitted so the complete basket assembly can be removed from the machine  motor by undoing one screw and the one I bought can then be fitted to the machine again held by a screw on the shaft.

I think the main diffrence between machines is the widths of baskets and the bayonet fittings on the basket frames, the elma type are narrower but if you can find a set cheap on ebay they should still be useful to you.

Thanks so much. I hadn't thought of replacing the whole thing. I notice that the National basket has an inner diameter of 54mm (from memory) which is smaller than the more modern Elmas.  Your idea is excellent and I'll keep my eyes peeled.

I have attached a picture of my machine for reference.

Thanks again

 

 

1 (2).jpg

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  • 2 months later...

I hope you're all well! 

I have just picked up a National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine, all works fine apart from the heating element. I have a new one to put in. I will also be stripping cleaning and re painting the machine. 

 

My question is does anybody know where I can get some more baskets that will fit this machine? It only came with one small basket. 

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My question is does anybody know where I can get some more baskets that will fit this machine? It only came with one small basket. 

Please put a picture up of basket and holder you have ... it's a little hard to imagine how the one you are looking for should look like!!

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You have a number of options open to you, try and find a National electric complete basket off the bay but I think you would have more luck finding a bag of rocking horse poo than that. The national uses a three prong bayonet fitting that is 80mm across, the basket fits to a shaft with bayonet fitting  that is connected directly to the motor.InkedIMG_2500_LI.thumb.jpg.b0879c8b97b3e820dab72ca12b32cc5c.jpg

The photo above shows a National basket compared to probably the most common type of basket which is a Elma basket these are approx 70mm across, the dividers from the elma will fit snugley into the national basket so divisions can be created in the basket using these, I can with my national basket create 3 useful layers using elma dividers.

The Elma bayonet fitting is not wide enough at 70mm to fit directly to a national machine, but you can remove the shaft and fitting from the national by loosening the grub screw that hold the shaft to the motor and replace it with a Elma shaft and fitting again held in place with a grub screw, this would allow you to use elma baskets and dividers on the National machine,

you can also buy useful little baskets that will fit in your National such as these,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16mm-Brass-basket-parts-holder-ultrasonic-cleaning-mesh-screw-type-watch-tool-/301581103372?hash=item4637a2710c:g:hpcAAOSwhQhYxwhS

Complete baskets and dividers can be bought for elma type machines new such as this,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watch-cleaning-machine-janta-pearl-brand-spare-parts-bottles-and-baskets-/291879006669?var=&hash=item43f55831cd:m:mp1w4YBMDAelzeQs1e3Twkg

I am of course providing this information assuming that your National machine has the original basket and shaft fitted, so a photo would be useful of your machine to confirm,

you will have to at any rate to keep your eyes peeled on the bay but with a little adaption your options are open in order to have a useful machine.

Edited by wls1971
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