Regulator

[Murks]

Are there any difference between a breguet regulator with a normal one can the both use similar hairspring when attached?

[Nucejoe]

Breguet regulator is shorter,  expanse of the overcoil decreases near the stud.

[Mark]

Moving to correct sub-forum.

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[grsnovi]

On 8/27/2022 at 10:09 PM, Murks said:

Are there any difference between a breguet regulator with a normal one

@Murks many of your questions are ambiguous.

You would have better luck with getting useful answers if you supplied: 1) the specific movement identification and/or 2) a photograph of both the front and back (dial side and train side) of the movement.

[Murks]

Yes have done all of marks courses and the movement im speaking of is a lip R. 25  a bought this movement without a regulator and balance cock. I used one of my spare ones  a had but a can't remember wish hairspring a used then a can send pictures l

Lip are selling this hairspring in breguet and flat I just thought maybe you can still use both it does not matter that's why a choose a breguet

[grsnovi]

Boy, you've been on that Lip for a while!

You would want the hairspring to match the regulator/balance cock you used.

It will matter as the Breguet has an over coil that "sticks up" over the plane of the spring and that will be where the spring engages with the pins on the regulator.

[JohnR725]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:10 PM, Murks said:

Lip are selling this hairspring in breguet and flat I just thought maybe you can still use both it does not matter that's why a choose a breguet

unfortunately it's not that simple. Flat hairsprings are usually vibrated to the specific balance wheel it goes with. This is why flat hairsprings are usually never sold all by themselves there only sold with their balance wheel. If you have a bad hairspring day it's a balance complete if it's flat.

If it's a breguet or sometimes call over coil hairspring because of the complex shape they are usually premade. So they were available separately. but they do have to go on a specific balance wheel designed for them which would have screws. Because you going to have to mix and match the screws to match the balance wheel to the hairspring. in other words swapping hairsprings on balance wheels these two timing issues.

then there's the regulator and the pin problem. Each type of hairspring flat versus breguet requires a regulator pins of a different length and in a different physical location. So that means you can not mix-and-match components and hoping they're going to work they will not work at all.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

34 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

unfortunately it's not that simple. Flat hairsprings are usually vibrated to the specific balance wheel it goes with. This is why flat hairsprings are usually never sold all by themselves there only sold with their balance wheel. If you have a bad hairspring day it's a balance complete if it's flat.

If it's a breguet or sometimes call over coil hairspring because of the complex shape they are usually premade. So they were available separately. but they do have to go on a specific balance wheel designed for them which would have screws. Because you going to have to mix and match the screws to match the balance wheel to the hairspring. in other words swapping hairsprings on balance wheels these two timing issues.

then there's the regulator and the pin problem. Each type of hairspring flat versus breguet requires a regulator pins of a different length and in a different physical location. So that means you can not mix-and-match components and hoping they're going to work they will not work at all.

 

 

Hi John. I think we have talked about this before. Vibrating a hairspring, how is the  spring actually adjusted to suit the balance wheel ? So when vibrating does this proceedure indicate a length that the spring has to be trimmed to so it matched the balance wheel size and weight ?

[JohnR725]

50 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi John. I think we have talked about this before. Vibrating a hairspring, how is the  spring actually adjusted to suit the balance wheel ? So when vibrating does this proceedure indicate a length that the spring has to be trimmed to so it matched the balance wheel size and weight ?

if we assume you have the right hairspring in the first place as they hairspring has to have certain characteristics for each balance wheel. As a reminder the hairspring is for more than just timing the energy of the hairspring is used to unlock the escapement. That would give you something to think about for a while. then the hairspring usually has to be a certain physical size for the balance wheel. in other words they hairspring can't be physically bigger than the balance wheel or really tiny it has to be a specific size.

once you have your hairspring you have to break out the center form a curve stick it into the collet and pin it and then place it on a truing caliper spin it and make sure it's flat. Hairspring has to be flat considered before you ideally want to vibrated

the vibrating parts seem simple but if you're doing it on a vibrating tool it's time-consuming process. Unless you have access to one of the modern tools it makes it really simple. So in the standard vibrating tool you grab the hairspring someplace you put your balance wheel over the master balance wheel and you cause both of them the oscillate and what you're trying to do is to get your balance wheel the synchronize with the master balance wheel in other words are finding the proper length of the hairspring. This is a very time-consuming operation as I said unless you have a machine and then it's much much faster. In a classroom situation vibrating hairsprings seems like something that takes forever and is not actually a fun thing to do depending upon point of view.

okay once your balance wheel synchronizes with the master balance wheel he found the point at which the regulator pins should go unless it's a free sprung balance wheel. Then you usually cut it one full turn from their and were going to assume that were not going to make a poised hairspring that ads in a whole bunch additional steps which were in the skip over. Then I'll have to his former terminal curve

YouTube videos and how to do things faster. Trying to get your balance wheel and hairspring the match the balance wheel means is slowly have to pull the hairspring through the tweezers holding the spring then cause both of them to rotate and time until they reach a certain length of time that there matched very time-consuming or if you had access to something like this where it just doesn't electronically and in the video he's cheating and away because notice this hairspring has a start on it. So to demonstrate the tool he's using an existing hairspring as opposed to taking a raw hairspring where we'd be way way way off

https://youtu.be/htckrH3ae54

notice in this video there's a lot of time this been cut out. Initially the balance wheels don't match slowly they start the match but he is still much closer than if you just started at the end of the hairspring

https://youtu.be/LJwwNzNK3y4

here's a video that's interesting classic watchmaking look at all the years all the hand making and then you get the hairspring vibrating you don't see the conventional tool do you?  at about five minutes and 39 seconds there is the machine that costs thousands and thousands of well whatever your currency is.

the school video below they really shortchange the students they should make them vibrate they hairspring the conventional way spend days and weeks trying to get it right but instead they use a really expensive machine that gets it perfect the first time sad what is the modern education today. Except these students are going to work in factories where they do have machinery so they don't need to learn how to hand vibrate hairspring.

then today after a factory the machines are really really fast. They don't pin they hairspring is there a laser welded to the collet. The machine itself is similar to this is a very very fast even before in the past they had machines was very very fast it's only if you tried to hand vibrate or you're in a school that taught Jenna hand vibrated takes a heck of a lot of time because usually have no idea where or even close to where you are your starting at the end of the hairspring

.https://youtu.be/KJQIw8Az1Xk

so I suppose simplistically which is too simplistic of the hairspring has a spring characteristic to it so it's not purely a length but as far as were concerned in simplistic terms like the vibrating tool it is the length and it's the mass of the balance wheel which corresponds more or less to the weight. So flat hairsprings are vibrated to the balance wheels. Over coils because the complex nature of premade and then the balance wheel has to match to the hairspring by changing the weights on the screws. Which is why if you look up American pocket watch parts or even Rolex had hairsprings that could be replaced they had all kinds of timing screws to get your balance wheel the match the hairspring.