Amplitude??

[RD35]

Newbie here…hello all!  While looking through the case back window of my watch I decided to use my phone to make a slow motion video of my balance in action.  One thing led to another and ended up taking these videos a different watch orientations.  So when laying flat with dial facing down the stop-to-stop amplitude is approx 420-420 degrees.  But with the watch on its side (9-o’clock up) the amplitude (stop-to-stop) is approx 270-280 degrees.  Is this something to be concerned about?

[RD35]

 Oops!  First newbie mistake...need to divide the numbers by two.....I looked up the definition of amplitude and my face turned red as I realized mine is varying between about 210 and 140 depending on orientation.  

[Jon]

If that amplitude is correct, then it is very low. I wouldn't rely on working out the amplitude by filming it with slo-mo. But you have given us nothing about the watch, how old it is, when the last time it was serviced. A 1917 trench watch might be good to go with low amplitudes, but not a modern ETA 2824-2.

Unless you have some sort of timegrapher, I wouldn't rely on visual guesswork regarding the amplitude.

Amplitude isn't measured as the full swing of the balance to full swing of the balance. It's measured as the balance at rest (as the impulse jewel is between the banking pins with no power on the mainspring) to the full swing of the balance. So, you might be thinking the amplitude is something other than it is

[RD35]

Thank-you Jon for the response.  My movement is a 7s26 that was purchased new in October of 2020 and has been worn daily by me ever since.  (Seiko SNK809)  It stayed within a few seconds per day for the first year or so and then began to run fast....approx 30-45 seconds per day.  So....after several weeks of this new behavior I opened it up for the first time and made several fine adjustments over the course of a week until I was able to make it run more true.  However, I next realized that it is much less precise as its accuracy changes depending on its orientation on the nightstand overnight.  Laying face up or down it loses time.  On its side it seems to gain.  Sounds like this may be my first attempt at a diagnosis and repair as it will not be a big risk monetarily.  I may use this as an excuse to buy a time grapher.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, RD35 said:

Thank-you Jon for the response.  My movement is a 7s26 that was purchased new in October of 2020 and has been worn daily by me ever since.  (Seiko SNK809)  It stayed within a few seconds per day for the first year or so and then began to run fast....approx 30-45 seconds per day.  So....after several weeks of this new behavior I opened it up for the first time and made several fine adjustments over the course of a week until I was able to make it run more true.  However, I next realized that it is much less precise as its accuracy changes depending on its orientation on the nightstand overnight.  Laying face up or down it loses time.  On its side it seems to gain.  Sounds like this may be my first attempt at a diagnosis and repair as it will not be a big risk monetarily.  I may use this as an excuse to buy a time grapher.

Hi rd. The hairspring is the time regulator of a watch. A very fragile and temperamental component, that needs to be true and accurately shaped without obstruction and contamination to enable good timekeeping. A fairly common issue of magnetism can affect the hairspring by making the coils momentarily stick together while it is expanding and contracting. In a way this could be considered as contamination be it somewhat by an invisible substance. This can cause the watch to gain time as the coils are pulled in faster on contraction. Normally a more increase of time gain than a few minutes would be experienced due to magnetism contamination. But i suppose it could vary depending on how the hairspring is reacting. This is only one possible cause. Contamination from the watch's own lubrication can also cause timing issues.  A knock or jolt to the watch could possibly move a lesser frictioned regulator of time or beat. This is the first area of possible issue that you would need to be looking at. With at least a 10x plus loupe inspect the hairspring while the watch is running. Looking for any sign of contamination. The hairspring should look central and evenly coiled up until the end curve which will have a double kink and then widen out as it passes through the regulator pins and then on up to the stud fastening point. It should be breathing in and out evenly and regularly. If its looking bunched up and uneven then you may have disturbed a loose etachron adjuster while you were trying to regulate the watch back into better timing. Also look for the coil sticking and releasing. Report back when you've looked at these points.

[RD35]

Thank-you Neverenoughwatches!  I'll check out the hairspring and adjuster!

[Shane]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

A knock or jolt to the watch could possibly move a lesser frictioned regulator of time or beat.

I know that this was a concern for railroad certified watches but has this ever happened to anyone?  In the days before shock systems, I would think any jolt (of sufficient direction and intensity) capable of moving the regulator would have also surly snapped the balance staff.  Most shock systems are mounted in much smaller watches with lower masses having proportionately lower moments of inertia.  Most of the regulators that I have interacted with have required significant force to adjust.  Enough force that I feel if I ever slip, I'll drive the hairspring right out of the watch.

From my experience, things that are running within their intended design parameters do not just get out of adjustment.  Something pushes them out of adjustment and that fault needs to be corrected first.  I'm not saying that it's impossible, just asking if anyone has encountered this.  It's been a question in the back of my head for some time and has now been brought into the conversation.

 

Thanks for your time.

Shane 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Shane

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Shane said:

I know that this was a concern for railroad certified watches but has this ever happened to anyone?  In the days before shock systems, I would think any jolt (of sufficient direction and intensity) capable of moving the regulator would have also surly snapped the balance staff.  Most shock systems are mounted in much smaller watches with lower masses having proportionately lower moments of inertia.  Most of the regulators that I have interacted with have required significant force to adjust.  Enough force that I feel if I ever slip, I'll drive the hairspring right out of the watch.

From my experience, things that are running within their intended design parameters do not just get out of adjustment.  Something pushes them out of adjustment and that fault needs to be corrected first.  I'm not saying that it's impossible, just asking if anyone has encountered this.  It's been a question in the back of my head for some time and has now been brought into the conversation.

 

Thanks for your time.

Shane 

Yes i can agree with you shane but as we all know experiences can differ. I mostly repair old swiss watches and to be fair i was probably basing my thoughts here. Who knows what a previous repairer or assuming repairer has done. So possibly an over assumption on my part with a newer watch. But then again nothing should be taken for granted on any watch. I have had plenty of things new out of the box that were faulty.. It does no harm to consider anything if, anything its a point off the checklist and if nothing  i would say it can still be an experience of learning. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Shane]

@Neverenoughwatches

I'm not saying that your line of thought is without merit and I would never say ruling something out is ever a waste of time.  I also started out saying that the railroad (a reasonably conscious group of people) gave that line of thought a significant amount consideration.

I just (applying my previous life experience) asked if anyone has actually had this happen.

I seem to have unintentionally lit your fuse.  I do value your point of view.

Shane 

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, Shane said:

@Neverenoughwatches

I'm not saying that your line of thought is without merit and I would never say ruling something out is ever a waste of time.  I also started out saying that the railroad (a reasonably conscious group of people) gave that line of thought a significant amount consideration.

I just (applying my previous life experience) asked if anyone has actually had this happen.

I seem to have unintentionally lit your fuse.  I do value your point of view.

Shane 

Haha. No shane you haven't matey. It takes a lot more than that. Maybe its just the way it came across from my end. Life is too short to upset anyone. I hope i haven't you. I always enjoy reading your posts, we are fine mate

[mikepilk]

5 hours ago, Shane said:

I know that this was a concern for railroad certified watches but has this ever happened to anyone? 

I just serviced an AS 984 (1930s-50s?) which doesn't have shock protection, but surprisingly has a moveable balance stud holder. I managed to dislodge it (2 times ) whilst turning the regulator boot, so it was quite lose and easily moved. It would move as I pushed the regulator. I think it could move with a shock to the watch - but that might break the balance staff pivots.

I have a Seiko 7S26, SNK809. To give you an idea of performance, I just wound it and put it on the timegrapher.

It's showing 240° dial up (not bad for one of these movements!) and a steady 220° crown down. 

20° loss from DU to CD sounds pretty good to me.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I just serviced an AS 984 (1930s-50s?) which doesn't have shock protection, but surprisingly has a moveable balance stud holder. I managed to dislodge it (2 times ) whilst turning the regulator boot, so it was quite lose and easily moved. It would move as I pushed the regulator. I think it could move with a shock to the watch - but that might break the balance staff pivots.

I have a Seiko 7S26, SNK809. To give you an idea of performance, I just wound it and put it on the timegrapher.

It's showing 240° dial up (not bad for one of these movements!) and a steady 220° crown down. 

20° loss from DU to CD sounds pretty good to me.

Interestjng mike i have the same watch, usually my work watch, when i actually work that is. I'm curious to see how it compares with yours. I'll give it a two minute spin around and then see what it shows. Btw i sometimes encounter a somewhat very easy to adjust time or beat regulator. Recently my sister's 40 year old everite with a 9ms beat error. It felt so free that I'm expecting to have to look at it again in the not too distant future.

[Shane]

 

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I managed to dislodge it (2 times ) whilst turning the regulator boot, so it was quite lose and easily moved.

 

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It felt so free that I'm expecting to have to look at it again in the not too distant future.

Interesting.  I have not experienced any regulators that loose.  I also wouldn't have thought their fit to be one of the harder things a manufacturer needed to control.

@Neverenoughwatches

No worries.  I wouldn't want you to send your missus to see me.

Thanks for your input.

Shane 

[Neverenoughwatches]

36 minutes ago, Shane said:

 

 

Interesting.  I have not experienced any regulators that loose.  I also wouldn't have thought their fit to be one of the harder things a manufacturer needed to control.

@Neverenoughwatches

No worries.  I wouldn't want you to send your missus to see me.

Thanks for your input.

Shane 

Lol its probably not difficult to control. Both these watches were quite old and another poker's intervention could have influenced the issue. Although my sister's had never been touched inside and barely worn and the oil was still fluid. She stopped wearing it years ago and only wore it very occasionally anyway. Also an everite so of reasonable quality. She had to shake it to make it start up. I assume because the beat was so far out , i would have to guess it had moved easily while wearing. It was very easily moved back into correct beat. I'm sure it had come straight from the factory like this, everything else was perfect. Ps. You are safe shane my missus has had her rant of the day today, at her mum and sister, it was very funny. People have to be very bad for me let her off her lead .  I also hope we have not frightened the OP away.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[RD35]

Nope not scared away.  However I do have a question.  Is there any way to post a ".mov" video file on this forum?

[Nucejoe]

You can post it on youtube and give us its link here. 

[RD35]

Just testing to see if this works!  Here are videos of crown down and face down.  I tried shaking the watch for a while to make sure it had a good wind and did not see a change in performance.

Top vid is crown down, bottom vid is face down.  Disregard center photo...learning curve and I cannot figure out how to edit the post yet.

[RD35]

Recap:  this snk809 with 7s26 has been on my arm since I opened the box brand new in October of 2020.  It ran with a very acceptable accuracy until approx. 9 months ago when it suddenly began to gain about 1 minute per day.  I can only imagine that I must have bumped it against something and caused some type of damage.  So...after several weeks of re-adjusting the time setting every few days I decided to attempt to regulate it.  Took me three attempts to achieve the accuracy I currently enjoy which is approx. +5s/day but totally depends on how I lay it on the night stand.  When face up it holds very new perfect time overnight.  When laid on its side crown up or crown down it gains approx 10s over night.  I figured I was just expecting too much precision from an inexpensive movement and so I really didn't think much about it until I read somewhere about an individual who took slow-motion video of his balance in action....which sparked a thought.  So, I fired up my Iphone video camera in slo-mo and recorded the above videos.  I could pretty clearly see that my amplitude was much lower when the watch was on its side (around 170-190 degrees) and much higher (around 210-230) when face up. With folks saying I should be seeing amplitudes in the 270 range I am thinking that I may want to attempt to fix this watch (and yes I realize its an inexpensive replaceable timepiece...but I would really love to know what could have caused this sudden change in performance).

So if you were tasked with fixing this movement what would you do?

[JohnR725]

On 8/30/2022 at 3:52 AM, Shane said:

n the days before shock systems, I would think any jolt (of sufficient direction and intensity) capable of moving the regulator would have also surly snapped the balance staff

yes in the old days of timepieces that Time good enough that you'd be concerned if there were off by a few seconds a day dropping them hard enough to move the regulator would break the balance staff. Then timekeeping would not be good at all is the watch with no longer run.

 

1 hour ago, RD35 said:

it suddenly began to gain about 1 minute per day.  I can only imagine that I must have bumped it against something and caused some type of damage. 

you still really need a timing machine to assess this. Then damage is a misleading word. We get watches into the shop from time to time that are going out of specs might be a way to word it. I remember one Seiko that came in I didn't even open up by just put on the demagnetizer and that's all it took. It's really easy on the modern watches to knock the hairsprings out of place.damage just put them where they're not supposed to be. It also seems to be possible and knock the regulators out of place it makes me wonder how hard somebody dropped the watch.

1 hour ago, RD35 said:

but totally depends on how I lay it on the night stand.  When face up it holds very new perfect time overnight.

this is where are you really need a timegrapher anything involving regulation of watch it's silly to do it any other way it's almost well ask it is impossible. Ideally when you look at the watch on the timing machine usually look at it and dial-up and dial down and at least one crown position just to see how it's doing. Then yes soon as you go from a dial position up or down to the crown position it always loses amplitude just what they do.. But if you're amplitude is pathetic for some reason and any go to a crown position and it drops 30 or so degrees worst-case it's going to look really really bad.

1 hour ago, RD35 said:

I opened the box brand new in October of 2020

oh and minor other little thing depends on where you bought the watch from as to how fast they turn over their inventory. Just because you purchased a brand-new doesn't mean it wasn't sitting in a warehouse for some time.

\

[Shane]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

yes in the old days of timepieces that Time good enough that you'd be concerned if there were off by a few seconds a day dropping them hard enough to move the regulator would break the balance staff. Then timekeeping would not be good at all is the watch with no longer run.

My previous point exactly.  I never would have thought that some would be that loose.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Shane

[jdm]

13 hours ago, RD35 said:

So if you were tasked with fixing this movement what would you do?

The big problem is, for an absolute beginner that has never completely taken apart a watch, let apart putting it back, it's extremely difficult to correctly diagnose and correct a positional problem, and even more on a Seiko watch. The issue is with the escapement, it can be the hairspring rubbing or out of perfect shape, there can be other more subtle causes. even the diagnostic part is difficult, without a timegrapher, without the experience needed to examine both visually and aurally. Then, there is about 100 more chances for a beginner to damage an hairspring when touching it, than making it better. Even removing and refitting the balance is a risky operation for a beginner, even after watching tens of videos. 

Your question repeats very often here, which is expected being Seiko watches very popular and accessible. Yet despite all warnings, many new members tried, failed, and disappeared without even saying goodbye. Watch repair is not an easy hobby, it has a steep and costly learning curve. Your best approach is either to find which night resting position makes an acceptable timekeeping, or get a replacement NH36 mov.t that adds manual winding and seconds hacking for about $40. But, As it happens, you can probably get a good complete SNK watch for about the same money.

Edited September 13, 2022 by jdm

[SpringMangler]

Now, as a newbie please feel free to completely ignore my comment, but I have had the same situation with a Nomos Tangente which went from extremely accurate to plus 30 seconds a day. For some reason Nomos seem particularly sensitive to magnetism and even working on a laptop for extended periods of time has been known to magnetise them. It just needed a quick visit to the de-magnetiser to restore normal working order. No other adjustment needed. 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, SpringMangler said:

I have had the same situation with a Nomos Tangente which went from extremely accurate to plus 30 seconds a day. 

Almost certainly isn't the same situation. The OP has observed, although by an empirical method, a major drop in amplitude in certain positions, which is unacceptable and not caused by magnetization. Unfortunately, even if it may seem so by reading watch enthusiasts forums, watches not necessarily run fast due to magnetization. Of course the OP is more than welcome to try demagnetizing and report here.