A mainspring winder thread based on - am I able to soak the whole barrel with the mainspring in?

[12052]

One more question.  I'm not to the point where I can take the mainspring out and clean it and then put it back so am I able to soak the whole barrel with the mainspring in it in lighter fluid or would that just take all the oil out of it and then it'd be useless?  Hope that's not a stupid question.  I currently just took apart a very old pocket watch and I'm soaking all the parts except for that part.

[oldhippy]

I couldn't get on with watch mainspring winders. If you know how to take the spring out then do so and clean the parts then use finger cots and put the spring back in then oil the spring, some will oil the shoulders of the barrel first before putting the spring in. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I couldn't get on with watch mainspring winders. If you know how to take the spring out then do so and clean the parts then use finger cots and put the spring back in then oil the spring, some will oil the shoulders of the barrel first before putting the spring in. 

I do the same. I have a few winders that often dont fit and sometimes trap the spring so i use a pin vise with a dog leg bent needle in it. This helps me feed the spring in once i have it started, it actually wovks pretty well considering its a bodgy makeshift device. The bent end fits down into the bottom of the barrel center hole. Once you have the spring started place the device onto the spring and spin the pinvice while feeding the spring into the barrel. The barrel has to be mounted in a movement holder, i use an adapted jewellers vice with pegwood inserts for grips, these bite into the teeth of the barrel to stop it moving. It can be easier to spin the the movement holder instead of the device. Its much easier than it sounds lol. I'll see if i can upload a demonstration, here is what i use in the meantime.  This is a very closely gaurded secret of mine, and the items i use are heavily patented.  Please do not tell anyone or i may have to come looking for you  . 

2 hours ago, 12052 said:

One more question.  I'm not to the point where I can take the mainspring out and clean it and then put it back so am I able to soak the whole barrel with the mainspring in it in lighter fluid or would that just take all the oil out of it and then it'd be useless?  Hope that's not a stupid question.  I currently just took apart a very old pocket watch and I'm soaking all the parts except for that part.

A very thin smear of oil on the mainspring is advisable,  if anything to protect it from oxidation especially on an old carbon spring. You could lift the barrel lid and place a drop of oil across the wound spring. Not best practice  and some may not agree with that ? The oil would eventually work its way around. Ideally the spring should come out and be properly cleaned, as dirt could remain trapped between the coils. You will need to tackle it at some point so now is as good as any opportunity . Try my method of reinsertion that I've left you after old hippy's post

[Kalanag]

If it‘s an automatic and you don’t have a matching winder it is better to leave the spring alone. You won‘t get the spring back in by hand most likely.

In general it is a good idea to spend 10 bucks for a new spring which is delivered in a ring and doesn‘t need winding.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Kalanag

[Mark]

45 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

In general it is a good idea to spent 10 bucks for a new spring which is delivered in a ring and doesn‘t need winding

Best option in my opinion.

Hand winding springs in always leaves doubt about what damage could have been done. Have you ever taken a spring out and seen that its coiled upwards? Usually that's because its been wound in by hand - and so the spring can potentially be rubbing on the barrel lid. Not judging - I've done it myself in the past, even automatic (slipping) springs, but you never know if damage has occurred unless, of course, if you remove it again to inspect  - a new spring is pre-lubricated and ready to fit into your cleaned barrel, and they're relatively cheap to purchase.

Using Mainspring winders, like many aspects of watch repair, takes practice and patience to use them without damage - but I personally feel that the potential for damage is greater with hand winding in.

[anilv]

As Mark said, hand-winding a mainspring back in will potentially bend the m/spring upwards (coned) but some combinations of arbor/barrels simply won't work. My bane is usually womens watches. Being able to get them back in the barrel by hand is a skill worth having.

Anilv

[Nucejoe]

I rewind the spring in a ring and rinse then it can be inserted in as you would brand new ones. 

Keeping  the rings to have a collection.

Poor man's mainspring winder. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Mark said:

but you never know if damage has occurred unless, of course, if you remove it again to inspect  - 

Lol. I used to do this with cars, " have i put that part in without damaging it i did seem to be a bit heavy handed, lets take it out and check it. Yes its fine "  then break it on its second fitting.

[Shane]

17 hours ago, Mark said:

Not judging - I've done it myself in the past, even automatic (slipping) springs,

That's comforting to know.  I would assume that once you're to the point of charging for your efforts, an expense of this type is justifiable.  At this point I have other places for my money than a tool that will not pay for itself and will need to defer this for some time.  I can't understand (if you can maintain) the same geometry experienced by the mainspring while removing it (both in angle and bend radius) how that it can damage the spring while reinstalling it.  I try very hard not to negatively affect the spring in any way and feel that I succeed on average.  It's nice to see that I'm at least not alone.

Thanks Mark.

Shane 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Shane said:

That's comforting to know.  I would assume that once you're to the point of charging for your efforts, an expense of this type is justifiable.  At this point I have other places for my money than a tool that will not pay for itself and will need to defer this for some time.  I can't understand (if you can maintain) the same geometry experienced by the mainspring while removing it (both in angle and bend radius) how that it can damage the spring while reinstalling it.  I try very hard not to negatively affect the spring in any way and feel that I succeed on average.  It's nice to see that I'm at least not alone.

Thanks Mark.

Shane 

Similar thoughts here shane. I do see the possibilities of the spring coning. But if its refitted carefully the same way as it is removed then that shouldn't add to its distortion should it. Apart from the fact that you are doubling up on its manual handling. I cant remember how my practice piece looked after a dozen removes and refits. I might dig out a new spring and scrap barrel and see what the effects are. I will say i nearly always refit by hand and the tg results seem fine.

[Gramham]

22 hours ago, Mark said:

Best option in my opinion.

Hand winding springs in always leaves doubt about what damage could have been done. Have you ever taken a spring out and seen that its coiled upwards? Usually that's because its been wound in by hand - and so the spring can potentially be rubbing on the barrel lid. Not judging - I've done it myself in the past, even automatic (slipping) springs, but you never know if damage has occurred unless, of course, if you remove it again to inspect  - a new spring is pre-lubricated and ready to fit into your cleaned barrel, and they're relatively cheap to purchase.

Using Mainspring winders, like many aspects of watch repair, takes practice and patience to use them without damage - but I personally feel that the potential for damage is greater with hand winding in.

Hello @Mark,

Yes, the "cone spring" is (even to a newbie like me) a well-recognized hallmark of someone having hand-wound a mainspring into the barrel.  I've now run into mention of this a few times in my various reading(s) while preparing to take your video course(s) in the Fall.  It is even diagrammed in the omnipresent CSOW as a "big time" no-no. 

Obviously, a spring distorted in this way will result in excessive wear on the interior of the barrel as the spring attempts to release vertically stored energy in a confined area, even as it is driven concentrically by the coiling and uncoiling of the spring around the arbor.  A very shiny barrel interior should be the symptom of this, no?

One of the biggest concerns of newbies like myself (at least according to My Retro Watches in conversation with Chronoglide regarding cleaning machines and winders being two of the biggest barriers to adoption) is the high expense of mainspring winders.  This naturally tempts the uninformed to "cheat" by attempting to hand wind mainsprings "super carefully", which probably never results in a perfectly non-conical mainspring and which may leave permanent scarring inside the mainspring barrel.

So, what is a newbie (like me) to do?  Is there any way besides expending a lot of time (waiting days for a spring to arrive in the mail) or expending a lot of money (ponying up a substantial amount of cash for a Bergeon or similar winder)?

I know you recently reviewed a Chinese winder and said it basically sucked...is that the state of things at the moment?  Do you think it might be possible to re-tool the Chinese Winder somehow, or one of the older models that used to be in industry somehow brought back into production for the enthusiast market?

Could the above tool, which appears in CSOW, be inexpensively re-created?  Have you ever seen one in real life?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how this critical aspect of Watchmaking, where fouls are probably being committed every day, might be made more affordable and safe for all.

g.
----

[tomh207]

@Gramham

 

Graham, have a look at this thread, both @VWatchieand @clockboyswear by these. I have been thinking about having a go at making a set like this. I have some ideas of how to go about it but would need a lathe and a small milling/cnc of which I currently have neither.

 

Tom

Just now, tomh207 said:

@Gramham

 

Graham, have a look at this thread, both @VWatchieand @clockboyswear by these. I have been thinking about having a go at making a set like this. I have some ideas of how to go about it but would need a lathe and a small milling/cnc of which I currently have neither.

 

Tom

Sorry, forgot to paste the link

 

[Gramham]

33 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

@Gramham

 

Graham, have a look at this thread, both @VWatchieand @clockboyswear by these. I have been thinking about having a go at making a set like this. I have some ideas of how to go about it but would need a lathe and a small milling/cnc of which I currently have neither.

 

Tom

Sorry, forgot to paste the link

 

 
Hello @tomh207,

Very cool!  Is the Master Craft winder still in patent?

This one appears to be be open-source:



Have you any opinion on it?  Seems to me you would need

- N sets of "mating" parts to suit different sized barrels (how many?)

- X plungers

Can someone suggest the most common barrel sizes?  If I make a prototype, what size should I do first?

I suppose this device can be either 3D printed or milled from circular brass bar stock (with a steel pin to act as an arbor hook to keep Mr. Lovick happy).  I don't know if it winds "both ways" but the design can probably be altered to be "ambi" if it isn't already.

People....any thoughts?
 

 

g.
----

Edited August 24, 2022 by Gramham
Text added to wrong section. Resolved.

[gbyleveldt]

You guys do know you don't have to buy the WHOLE Bergeon mainspring kit right? Just buy the winders and arbours as you need them. Sure, you have to wait on shipping for the first time you need it, but then you've got it for next time. Most popular for men's wristwatches are the #6 and #7 ones. So get those to start (right and left set) and you're in for maybe 200GBP. Then you add as you need in future, bringing the barrier to entry muuuuuch lower, without resorting to having to molest mainsprings by winding them in by hand. If you're working on something you're not likely to work on ever again (like a pocket watch), then just buy the mainsprings themselves.

[tomh207]

43 minutes ago, Gramham said:

 
Hello @tomh207,

Very cool!  Is the Master Craft winder still in patent?

This one appears to be be open-source:



Have you any opinion on it?  Seems to me you would need

- N sets of "mating" parts to suit different sized barrels (how many?)

- X plungers

Can someone suggest the most common barrel sizes?  If I make a prototype, what size should I do first?

I suppose this device can be either 3D printed or milled from circular brass bar stock (with a steel pin to act as an arbor hook to keep Mr. Lovick happy).  I don't know if it winds "both ways" but the design can probably be altered to be "ambi" if it isn't already.

People....any thoughts?
 

 

g.
----

Hi Graham, I believe this was created by one of our forum members @Zero and is also being sold by another on eBay @AndyShap

 

there is a lot of discussion and information here and the thread is still very much active. I haven’t tried these so have no opinion, just for me the master craft ones appeal to me.

 

Tom

[Shane]

2 hours ago, Gramham said:

I don't know if it winds "both ways" but the design can probably be altered to be "ambi" if it isn't already.

It looks very interesting.  It also appears that you just flip the disk over for reverse winding. Very interesting.

2 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Just buy the winders and arbours as you need them.

To be totally honest, no I never looked into that.  My frugal nature normally doesn't recognize that as an option.  The cost of not being able to afford a whole set is spending twice as much for it. Twice is probably an exaggeration but with shipping charges that might also be on the conservative side.  Again, when you charge your customers for the tools you need to get their work done and then keep the tools afterwards, everything is economically feasible.

But to be totally fair, I will look into that.

Thanks for your input.

Shane 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Gramham said:

Could the above tool, which appears in CSOW, be inexpensively re-created?  Have you ever seen one in real life?

Eyup G. I have two slightly more modern versions of this tool. Neither of them rarely fit. You are relying on only five options of sizes. Often the size differences are either too big or too small. I also have a fully adjustable winder that has a limited minimum size. Its a bit of a faff to use and really only fits pocket watches.  The coned example you have ringed is an extreme and tbf i do think that hand winding is getting a bit of a bad rap here. There are good and bad ways to approach the technique. Obviously a bad technique will give a poor result adversely a good technique will yield a good result. This is my opinion Obviously from my experiences but until it has been thoroughly tried and trialled by any individual it honestly should not be discounted. As always do what works for you but dont be affraid to try something different

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

@Gramham

 

Graham, have a look at this thread, both @VWatchieand @clockboyswear by these. I have been thinking about having a go at making a set like this. I have some ideas of how to go about it but would need a lathe and a small milling/cnc of which I currently have neither.

 

Tom

Sorry, forgot to paste the link

 

Watchie swears by this tool, in fact he sleeps with it under his pillow   lol. ( nothing wierd i suspect but then again knowing watchie who knows ). Bloody hard to find one anyway , I've tried many times over.

[tomh207]

27 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup G. I have two slightly more modern versions of this tool. Neither of them rarely fit. You are relying on only five options of sizes. Often the size differences are either too big or too small. I also have a fully adjustable winder that has a limited minimum size. Its a bit of a faff to use and really only fits pocket watches.  The coned example you have ringed is an extreme and tbf i do think that hand winding is getting a bit of a bad rap here. There are good and bad ways to approach the technique. Obviously a bad technique will give a poor result adversely a good technique will yield a good result. This is my opinion Obviously from my experiences but until it has been thoroughly tried and trialled by any individual it honestly should not be discounted. As always do what works for you but dont be affraid to try something different

Watchie swears by this tool, in fact he sleeps with it under his pillow   lol. ( nothing wierd i suspect but then again knowing watchie who knows ). Bloody hard to find one anyway , I've tried many times over.

I’ve got my eye out for them as well NEW. I think it took one of the two guy’s who have them several years of searching, hence the thought of making them.

 

@gramham

the only thing I have found for master craft is a US boatbuilder, I wouldn’t know where to start on a patent search.

 

Tom

[gbyleveldt]

34 minutes ago, Shane said:

To be totally honest, no I never looked into that.  My frugal nature normally doesn't recognize that as an option.  The cost of not being able to afford a whole set is spending twice as much for it.

Heh, ask anyone who has bought the whole kit and most of them would tell you they've never touched half of it. In my case, I've only done two pocket watches and I just bought mainsprings for those (at less than $10 a pop). Outside of that, I use #6 and #7 all the time. I then had a lot of Seiko 4205 movements I worked through and bought the #3 set for that. Total investment was 300GBP and I've done many, many movements with it. I've recently added #4 and #5 to the set as part of my monthly Cousins orders (which I'm yet to even need), although I suspect I'll never get anywhere close to the 1kGBP amount that a full set goes for, but even if I do end up needing all of it, the pain will be spread over a loooong time. I get to use what I need now, without giving up right out the gate because I can't afford the whole set. Of course, my needs are different to yours but I was just throwing out some real world (for me) numbers out there.

42 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The coned example you have ringed is an extreme and tbf i do think that hand winding is getting a bit of a bad rap here. There are good and bad ways to approach the technique. Obviously a bad technique will give a poor result adversely a good technique will yield a good result. This is my opinion Obviously from my experiences but until it has been thoroughly tried and trialled by any individual it honestly should not be discounted.

Ay bud, I can't tell you how many barrels I've opened up where all the plating has rubbed off the insides because the main spring is even slightly out of true. The fact that these barrels are suspiciously clean is a dead giveaway that they've been manually fitted. As Mark said earlier, you won't know you doing it wrong till you unwind it again to check. Or you get to see the movement 3 years later after the interior looks like a worn set of brake disks.

[Shane]

If at the time, there was a watchmaker on every street corner and they all used the best practices and procedures, where has all of their tooling gone?  There still seems to be a significant number of watches to go around and they all still needed servicing but we have a mismatch in certain aspects of support.  I can't see how the quartz revelation suddenly stopped everyone from wearing and valuing the mechanical watches they already owned.  I can understand why Timex lost that fight.  It was their market base that moved towards quartz watches and servicing their movements never made any financial sense.  But better, higher end watches must have always meant and been the status symbol they were and now are.

An aspect of that time that I was to young and disconnected from to pay any attention to.

Thoughts?

Shane 

[Gramham]

22 minutes ago, Shane said:

If at the time, there was a watchmaker on every street corner and they all used the best practices and procedures, where has all of their tooling gone?  There still seems to be a significant number of watches to go around and they all still needed servicing but we have a mismatch in certain aspects of support.  I can't see how the quartz revelation suddenly stopped everyone from wearing and valuing the mechanical watches they already owned.  I can understand why Timex lost that fight.  It was their market base that moved towards quartz watches and servicing their movements never made any financial sense.  But better, higher end watches must have always meant and been the status symbol they were and now are.

An aspect of that time that I was to young and disconnected from to pay any attention to.

Thoughts?

Shane 

Hello @Shane,

It may be a simple problem of recognition and concentration. 

People "understand" what a pocket or wrist watch is and tend to regard them as objects of desire worth taking and cherishing for their intrinsic and sentimental value.  They do not typically identify watchmaking tools and machines as such. 

I remember many a garage sale as a child seeing staking sets, asking what they were and being disappointed because they weren't microscopes - something I did understand - and remaining in mystery as to what the actual function of that object was because by then (the early 80's) nobody knew what those things in strange-smelling wooden boxes that "Granddad used to use" were...or did. 

Watches do not suffer from this problem, and a single staking set can service hundreds (if not thousands) of timepieces in its working lifetime.  Highly concentrated, obscure watchmaking machinery is likely to get tossed in the garbage. 

But Granddad's Pocket Watch...even if it's no longer running because someone dropped it and nobody knows how to fix it any more?  Likely not.

g.
----

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

I think it took one of the two guy’s who have them several years of searching, hence the thought of making them.

It did. It was watchie. I remember him getting it. He was soooooo excited

1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Heh, ask anyone who has bought the whole kit and most of them would tell you they've never touched half of it. In my case, I've only done two pocket watches and I just bought mainsprings for those (at less than $10 a pop). Outside of that, I use #6 and #7 all the time. I then had a lot of Seiko 4205 movements I worked through and bought the #3 set for that. Total investment was 300GBP and I've done many, many movements with it. I've recently added #4 and #5 to the set as part of my monthly Cousins orders (which I'm yet to even need), although I suspect I'll never get anywhere close to the 1kGBP amount that a full set goes for, but even if I do end up needing all of it, the pain will be spread over a loooong time. I get to use what I need now, without giving up right out the gate because I can't afford the whole set. Of course, my needs are different to yours but I was just throwing out some real world (for me) numbers out there.

Ay bud, I can't tell you how many barrels I've opened up where all the plating has rubbed off the insides because the main spring is even slightly out of true. The fact that these barrels are suspiciously clean is a dead giveaway that they've been manually fitted. As Mark said earlier, you won't know you doing it wrong till you unwind it again to check. Or you get to see the movement 3 years later after the interior looks like a worn set of brake disks.

Yep mate. I've seen it, the one i'm working on at the movement has some wear inside the barrel . It still doesn't provoke me into shelling out a stash of  cash though . Ill wait till i have a lottery win then I'll consider it

[tomh207]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It did. It was watchie. I remember him getting it. He was soooooo excited

Yep mate. I've seen it, the one i'm working on at the movement has some wear inside the barrel . It still doesn't provoke me into shelling out a stash of  cash though . Ill wait till i have a lottery win then I'll consider it

Starting to get the idea that buying a lathe and a cheap minimill  to make them myself would still work out cheaper than the full bergeon set.

[Zero]

I'm struggling to understand how all of this relates to the topic "How should I use lighter fluid to clean my watch parts?"

That said, @Gramham, @Shane, you're gonna have a hard time if you ask more experienced/professional members here about using 3D printed winders. I get very little feedback from them in regards to improving the design, I'm guessing because most of them have no need for it.

The people who do help me on this project are like minded hobbyists and tinkerers, or those starting out their journey. They have given a lot of feedback and quite a number of them printed it out to help me test the winder over the last year, and as you can see the winder design looks very different than it did initially.

I will list some pros of using the 3D printed RS winder:

• Its free. Do whatever you want with the design files, make it suit your needs.
• You can get a good 3D printer under 200GBP (Eg. Kingroon K3PS). And it is an objectively better purchase to a hobbyist/tinkerer. See purchase advice megathread on Reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting
• Plastic will never scratch steel, at least in general.
• Its considered disposable.
• You can just print the sizes you care about and not care about the rest.
• There is a learning curve to using it, but once mastered it is a joy to use and will not fail on you. Practicing is important.

Cons of using should be obvious. If it isn't, please read it here:
https://github.com/vishnu350/rs-mainspring-winder#warnings-and-advice

Edited August 24, 2022 by Zero

[Kalanag]

1 hour ago, Zero said:

…Cons of using should be obvious. If it isn't, please read it here:
https://github.com/vishnu350/rs-mainspring-winder#warnings-and-advice

After having tinkered with different 3D printed winders I see the arbour with hook as the key component. This component can not be printed. I‘m not too happy with the staple pin design as it doesn‘t provide a defined circular winding geometry for the highly loaded arbour side of the mainspring. I also have seen microscopic shavings on the wound spring due to the sharp edges of the spring rubbing on the briddle PLA material of the winder. But that‘s just my personal experience.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Kalanag