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Serenity Now!!! The tiny bridge diashocks in this 7s26 is an insurmountable roadblock...


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This goddamned thing.  A_curse_on_the_inventor_of_this.thumb.jpg.df50e1f5b734a067a726344354e96489.jpg

I am now over 4 hours trying to get this thing set and I just can't do it. I'm not completely terrible with tweezers  but it seems like people exclusively set these things with the TINIEST tipped #3 tweezers and my number 2's just don't seem up to the task...maybe they're not dressed correctly but they look like most number 2's i see in use and I would rather not have to drop 80 dollars on two pairs of #3 tweezers for this ONE thing. The moment i hold down one end of the diashock it shoots the jewel out the other end, sometimes i fold the spring over it and it jut shoots it out the side.

I've tried the hollowed out pegwood tool (Works like a charm for the balance wheel setting. Worked only once on this and I can't duplicate it, plus the amount of wood it sheds is...concerning, i'm sure the oil on that wheel is contaminated with sawdust to hell from my dozens of failed attempts.), i've tried sharpened pieces of pegwood instead of tweezers. I've tried slotting it in one end first but the moment a tweezer comes into contact with the thing it flies off (I'm not losing parts anymore but it flies out of the setting.)

Any tips, tricks, advice, or maybe curses you can cast on the guy that invented thse #@&#$%ing things would be appreciated. I'm super excited to continue with this project and everything else seems to be going great but getting these things back in is just a total roadblock.

Do I just have to suck it up and "get good"? Or is there some hack or trick I'm missing.

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10 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I've tried the hollowed out pegwood tool (Works like a charm for the balance wheel setting.

The tiny shock springs on the train are not to be removed for service. I think that is mentioned in pretty much any walk-through or discussion about these mov.ts.

As you noticed, pegwood is too soft for them. Only a small plastic tube might work. And if you use something too hard, the spring will break if excessive force is applied, as it happens when taken by frustration.

 

Edited by jdm
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Just now, dadistic said:

Diashocks are DIAbolical, no doubt about it.  🙂

 

Tell me even skilled watchmakers cuss and fuss with these things for extended periods of time haha.

I noticed even mark had a suspiciously placed camera cut inbetween getting the diashock in place and when he got the thing set. In fact most of the vids i've watched setting those things seems to be it's own self contained segment.

 

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4 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Diashocks are DIAbolical, no doubt about it.  🙂

Worth to remarl for the casual reader again. Only the tiny ones on the train are difficulty to refit. The one on the balance are very easy to deal with, either with tweezers or rounded top tool.

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7 minutes ago, jdm said:

You didn't said it, but what you're are the swearing about about are the tiny shock spring on the train, that are not to be removed for service. I think that is mentioned in pretty much any walk-through or discussion about these mov.ts.

As you noticed, pegwood is too soft for them. Only a small plastic tube might work. And if you use something too hard, the spring will break if excessive force is applied, as it happens when taken by frustration.

 

I didn't really remove it, one of the issues causing this watch to have a bad signal on the timegrapher in one position turned out to be one of these springs was half dislodged and the jewel possibly wasn't sitting right as a result. It was hard to tell.

I got the thing set again but knew it was probably so filthy from messing with it so long i removed it again to make sure it was all nice and clean and now i can't get it back in. After i got my good pegwood i was able to get it in in about 5 minutes using the same type of hollowed out pegwood tool i use very easily on the balance setting. Why it won't work a second time i have no clue....

Also in marks 7s26 service video he actually does remove iirc them but I have seen most people don't.

2 minutes ago, jdm said:

Worth to remarl for the casual reader again. Only the tiny ones on the train are difficulty to refit. The one on the balance are very easy to deal with, either with tweezers or rounded top tool.

Yeah the big one is a snap.

Edited by Birbdad
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4 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Why it won't work a second time i have no clue.

Because the smallest the part, the less tolerance for non-optimal factors. In other words, you need to have exactly the right tool and technique, otherwise most attempts become futile, or yeld marginal results.

These mov.ts, are largely assembled by sophisticated robots. After the end of cheap labor in Japan, the Japanese really excelled in producing an high volume of high quality electronic and mechanical devices. They may have factories offshore for general cost reduction and tax reasons, but the ace of their business is  the incredible machines and automated processes that they have developed for themselves.

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4 minutes ago, jdm said:

Because the smallest the part, the less tolerance for non-optimal factors. In other words, you need to have exactly the right tool and technique, otherwise most attempts become futile, or yeld marginal results.

These mov.ts, are largely assembled by sophisticated robots. After the end of cheap labor in Japan, the Japanese really excelled in producing an high volume of high quality electronic and mechanical devices. They may have factories offshore for general cost reduction and tax reasons, but the ace of their business is  the incredible machines and automated processes that they have developed for themselves.

 Well regardless, ALl i have is my hands and my simian brain that can use and make tools and if i have to, buy them. 

Here's a vid of some guy setting.  His tweezers are VERY VERY sharp and VERY pointy and i believe these are the same ones mark uses.  Much much pointer than my #2. Got any ideas?

 

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You gonna need to sharpen at least one of your tweezers to do this. I use a No 5 and a No 3. The No 5 being the sharp one I can use to manipulate the diafix. Your other challenge is getting oil on that jewel, placing it and getting the spring fitted without the oil being disturbed. After much swearing I caved in and bought an auto oiler to oil the jewel after it's fitted. It's possible without an auto oiler, but as you've seen it can take hours redoing the process till you've come right. And if I don't do these for a while, the first one usually takes a bit of effort till I get it right. You have my sympathies. 

I show this process in one of my videos at the 15:35 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrhYjLaoQvM

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I've done a full watch's worth with my #5. It wasn't easy, or medium, or even just hard, but I did it. The subsequent so-equipped Seiko I encountered, I left them alone as is often recommended. I felt bad about it, but not as bad as I would have felt trying to finagle those tiny little springs. I haven't done one since I got my stereo microscope, and wonder if it might not be easier now. Not sure I wonder enough to track one down, but should one cross my path worth snagging, I might try one (only one, just in case).

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2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I haven't done one since I got my stereo microscope, and wonder if it might not be easier now. Not sure I wonder enough to track one down, but should one cross my path worth snagging, I might try one (only one, just in case).

Ah, I should probably mention that I exclusively use a stereo microscope when working on anything. I use one professionally as well so I never bothered trying to work on a watch with a loupe. I’d rather remove my eyeball with a spoon than sitting hunched over a high bench with my nose glued to the movement.

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6 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

You gonna need to sharpen at least one of your tweezers to do this. I use a No 5 and a No 3. The No 5 being the sharp one I can use to manipulate the diafix. Your other challenge is getting oil on that jewel, placing it and getting the spring fitted without the oil being disturbed. After much swearing I caved in and bought an auto oiler to oil the jewel after it's fitted. It's possible without an auto oiler, but as you've seen it can take hours redoing the process till you've come right. And if I don't do these for a while, the first one usually takes a bit of effort till I get it right. You have my sympathies. 

I show this process in one of my videos at the 15:35 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrhYjLaoQvM

Do you have to oil the train jewels? Most people don't even remove it at and it's not listed as a lubrication point in the tech sheet.

Edited by Birbdad
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1 hour ago, dadistic said:

Generally, the only pivots that don't get oil are the pallet fork pivots.

The 7s26C sheet that I just looked at shows the train diashock jewel as a lube point. 

Cheers!

My bad I was confused, I thought you meant the actual cap jewel itself. It does appear the these things are not designed to be removed and i can see why.

But i probably gotta have the right tools. Ordered a dumont 3 and 5. I'm probably gonna need em eventually, might as well get em now.

 

 

7 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

It's possible without an auto oiler, but as you've seen it can take hours redoing the process till you've come right. And if I don't do these for a while, the first one usually takes a bit of effort till I get it right. You have my sympathies. 

I show this process in one of my videos at the 15:35 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrhYjLaoQvM

Appreciate ya and sheesh is it really THAT difficult? Not sure i've seen any body using an auto oiler. 
But it sounds like i need to figure out a solution to this. Currently scouring my house looking for any plastic rod that's close to this diameter I can shave down but I'm not coming up with much.

Edited by Birbdad
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7 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Appreciate ya and sheesh is it really THAT difficult? Not sure i've seen any body using an auto oiler. 

Well for me it was difficult. Think about it; how do you prevent the oil being messed up when you fighting the spring and the cap jewel gets shoved around? Especially since you’re struggling as it is now without any oil on the jewel? I’d love to tell you it gets better with practice (and it does a little), but it never gets easy. 

Most everyone doing train cap jewels on a 7S movement (especially professionally) is using an auto oiler. If you only going to do one or two movements it’s hard to justify, but if you do many it’s a no brainer.

And yes, you have to oil them. Not sure why you thought you shouldn’t?

Edited by gbyleveldt
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1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Well for me it was difficult. Think about it; how do you prevent the oil being messed up when you fighting the spring and the cap jewel gets shoved around? Especially since you’re struggling as it is now without any oil on the jewel? I’d love to tell you it gets better with practice (and it does a little), but it never gets easy. 

Most everyone doing train cap jewels on a 7S movement (especially professionally) is using an auto oiler. If you only going to do one or two movements it’s hard to justify, but if you do many it’s a no brainer.

And yes, you have to oil them. Not sure why you thought you shouldn’t?

Well on the service sheet at least appears to show you have to lubricate the lower jewel not the cap jewel.

 trainwheelbearinglube.thumb.jpg.4f8caf9bda18ec7de73f682a0564ee5a.jpg

JDM said you never remove these settings during a service and very few people seem to. 
Mark in this video says you replace the setting, then "oil from the other side." (With an automatic oiler so there ya go.) with what you said. That made me think that you did indeed oil the lower jewel. 
Also marc appears to skip over oiling those settings entirely in his other 7s26 so that caused a bit of confusion haha.

I guess maybe my confusion is procedure and just having not even tried a lube job yet. 
So you ARE supposed to oil the cap jewel...from the bottom without getting oil on the jewel below it? Does the tip of bergeons smallest regular oiler even fit in that jewel hole from the bottom? That does sound difficult if not impossible but maybe also something i should be learning as is placing these tiny settings.  

Since that sounds like literal psychological torture, sounds like i should order an automatic oiler for this type of work in the future, might as well get it with my new tweezers from cousins and save some cash. Which one specifically is good for this insanely delicate work? I'd like to work on my skills with regular oilers for other aspects of this process so I don't think i'm ready to buy a full set as they're so pricey.

 
It looks like this is the one to get right? https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oilers-automatic-bergeon-new-style

 

Edited by Birbdad
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23 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Well on the service sheet at least appears to show you have to lubricate the lower jewel not the cap jewel.

 trainwheelbearinglube.thumb.jpg.4f8caf9bda18ec7de73f682a0564ee5a.jpg

JDM said you never remove these settings during a service and very few people seem to. 
Mark in this video says you replace the setting, then "oil from the other side." (With an automatic oiler so there ya go.) with what you said. That made me think that you did indeed oil the lower jewel. 
Also marc appears to skip over oiling those settings entirely in his other 7s26 so that caused a bit of confusion haha.

I guess maybe my confusion is procedure and just having not even tried a lube job yet. 
So you ARE supposed to oil the cap jewel...from the bottom without getting oil on the jewel below it? Does the tip of bergeons smallest regular oiler even fit in that jewel hole from the bottom? That does sound difficult if not impossible but maybe also something i should be learning as is placing these tiny settings.  

Since that sounds like literal psychological torture, sounds like i should order an automatic oiler for this type of work in the future, might as well get it with my new tweezers from cousins and save some cash. Which one specifically is good for this insanely delicate work? I'd like to work on my skills with regular oilers for other aspects of this process so I don't think i'm ready to buy a full set as they're so pricey.

 
It looks like this is the one to get right? https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oilers-automatic-bergeon-new-style

 

Birb matey. I think you need to cut down on the redbull .🤣

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8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Birb matey. I think you need to cut down on the redbull .🤣

I type about 110 wpm. 
Remind me to pound some of those before my next typing test 😜

That said, I ordered some 3's 5's and cousins was the only place seemingly on earth with that auto oiler in stock. Sigh. More waiting but this seems like the best solution.

Edited by Birbdad
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32 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Does the tip of bergeons smallest regular oiler even fit in that jewel hole from the bottom? That does sound difficult if not impossible

Thats what the auto oiler is for mate. You are right it would be difficult to place oil on the cap jewel through the holed jewel correctly with a hand oiler even if you had one that small. The smallest acupuncture needle i can find is 0.18 probably still too big. Thats also without the spade end to hold the oil plus unlikely you would be able to release the oil from it. One auto oiler to add to your tool list I'm affraid or get very good at manually oiling cap jewels and fitting microscopic shock springs without disturbing said oiled cap jewels. I prefer good strong filtered coffee to hyper myself up 🙂

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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Well on the service sheet at least appears to show you have to lubricate the lower jewel not the cap jewel.

 trainwheelbearinglube.thumb.jpg.4f8caf9bda18ec7de73f682a0564ee5a.jpg


It looks like this is the one to get right? https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oilers-automatic-bergeon-new-style

 

Look nicely at the sheet you posted. It shows oiling of the jewels from the underside of the train bridge. It is obviously assumed that the caps are already installed. I believe there's guys doing this without an auto oiler but using an Incabloc oiler to get oil on the cap through the jewel. It's nothing more than a stupid fine needle. I bought one of these a while back but never used it so I can't give you first hand advise on that

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oilers-3-in-1-incabloc-specialist?code=O49486

If JDM says those should never be removed then that would be his opinion. I've not seen any official documents from Seiko saying you should or shouldn't remove these (if I missed it I'm happy to be proven wrong). Many people choose to not remove these because it's difficult and that's ok. Most people here are hobbyists and they service these for their own use, so far be it from me to criticize anyone who don't have the skill, patience or equipment to do it. If you charge for your work, then that's an entirely different conversation.

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51 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

Look nicely at the sheet you posted. It shows oiling of the jewels from the underside of the train bridge. It is obviously assumed that the caps are already installed. I believe there's guys doing this without an auto oiler but using an Incabloc oiler to get oil on the cap through the jewel. It's nothing more than a stupid fine needle. I bought one of these a while back but never used it so I can't give you first hand advise on that

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oilers-3-in-1-incabloc-specialist?code=O49486

If JDM says those should never be removed then that would be his opinion. I've not seen any official documents from Seiko saying you should or shouldn't remove these (if I missed it I'm happy to be proven wrong). Many people choose to not remove these because it's difficult and that's ok. Most people here are hobbyists and they service these for their own use, so far be it from me to criticize anyone who don't have the skill, patience or equipment to do it. If you charge for your work, then that's an entirely different conversation.

I"m not being combative haha. You asked me why i did not think specifically the cap jewels had to be oiled. I answered you. I'm of course wrong and every correction i get is much appreciated so cheers to you. I'm VERY glad i learned that now and not after i had cleaned, incorrectly lubed, and reassembled the dang thing only for a month later for it to go haywire because oil is getting everywhere. Serious question though. You reset those by hand with tweezers, you got skills. How long does it take you? Seconds? minutes? hour? I'm just curious.

To remove them or to not remove them? I have no idea what's correct. I've long since accepted that not a lot of things are agreed on by people with far more knowledge than me.

That said I have another bridge to practice these damn things on when my new tweezers get here and i will do that but I GOT IT BACK ON, 5 hours and about a dozen failed tools later so for archives sake for other noobs here's what finally finally worked as I'm sure I won't be the last person here to pull his hair out over these awful things.

I bought a 6 dollar cheap  pin vise hand drill from amazon, for the small ones peg wood doesn't work, I found an old plastic knitting needle my mom had and cut the tip off and sanded it down flat but rough. The pallet stone is about exactly a 1mm wide, drilled a 1mm hole in the end and VERY carefully shaved the outside down with an xacto knife to get the wall exactly the right width of the setting slot so that you could put it in without the jewel in and push it side to side and it won't slip out. I thoroughly rodico'd it and it still took many tries. 

If anybody is struggling with these and doesn't have proper tweezers or skills try this.

1581278241_IMG_20220822_0429082.thumb.jpg.60c01099db0a5984131a22bed9023e0b.jpg

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3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Also marc appears to skip over oiling those settings entirely in his other 7s26 so that caused a bit of confusion haha

Filming this process is not easy with a bloody big macro lens in front of you - if its not in the video it doesn't mean it's not been done though - there are quite a few things that don't make it in my YouTube videos which are not step-by-step instructionals 😄 

But to be clear - they absolutely must be clinically cleaned and lubricated, as painful as the process might be.

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  • Mark changed the title to Serenity Now!!! The tiny bridge diashocks in this 7s26 is an insurmountable roadblock...
Just now, Mark said:

Filming this process is not easy with a bloody big macro lens in front of you - if its not in the video it doesn't mean it's not been done though - there are quite a few things that don't make it in my videos 😄 

But to be clear - they absolutely must be clinically cleaned and lubricated, as painful as the process might be.

Ey the man himself! Thanks so much for your vids and I absolutely assumed as much. 
What tweezers do you use to set those damn things and how long does it typically take you out of curiosity? Is it STILL painful for you? XD 

But yes, I will not even try to install those things in the future WITH oil. So automatic oiler it is. I'm bull headed but not a masochist. One things for sure I gotta practice this...

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1 minute ago, Birbdad said:

What tweezers do you use to set those damn things and how long does it typically take you out of curiosity? Is it STILL painful for you?

Usually size 3 and 4 (combination). Not really painful but still can be awkward. Just keep practicing.

 

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

But yes, I will not even try to install those things in the future WITH oil. So automatic oiler it is.

Definitely the best method in my opinion - install them dry, then use an automatic oiler once fitted.

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