Bergeon mainspring winder

[DanielGato]

Hello!

I'm new to this watchmaking and so far I have successfully taken watch apart and lost pieces.

I have a K.F 260 movement and got a mainspring from eBay for it. I did obviously unwind it by accident while trying to figure out if I put it the right way or not. 

I realised that this will cost a lot in mainsprings and maybe a mainspring winder would be a good purchase. I'm just not ready to buy the whole Bergeon winder pack and while checking cousinsuk I realised I could just buy the parts as I go and need it. 

But some questions remain and I'm not sure to get I understand it correctly:

1) Do I need to have the "right handle" to use "right winders"?

2) Are the right and left handle for "right and left" handed people or are does that direction actually matter to wind a mainspring?

3) The size of the winders defines the size of the barrel, for example "Right Hand, Ø13.00mm (No.9) Winder" would wind a mainspring to fit in a 13mm barrel. Is this correct?

4) I see that I can get a "Right Hand, Ø13.00mm (No.9) Winder" and "Right Hand, Ø13.00mm (No.9) Arbor". It seems to me that an arbor of 13mm is way too big. I'm assuming this is to replace the axis that grabs the mainspring and winds it (in case it breaks or gets used". Is this correct?

5) I have 2 mainspring to wind into one 16mm and one 17mm barrel. I'm wondering if I could get away with only one 15mm winder. It lookalike there is enough space to wind those mainsprings. Am I correct?

Thank you to whom could shed some light here.

[DanielGato]

Some how I can't find this post and it appears to be created before my account. I wonder if people can see it.

[watchweasol]

Hi  In the search box type "bergeon mainspring winder"      with the quotes.  I have just looked and there are 24 instances on by VWatchie which I think answers your question

[DanielGato]

Hi@watchweasol, 

I tried that before hand - actually I tried to research that on multiple forums but I can't get a precise answer for those precise questions :)

For question 1 and 2 there is contradicting answers. For questions 3 and 4 I don't find any clear answer and for 5 there is some sort of positive answer but then there is people saying that "it is correct but" we shouldn't.

I'm a bit lost with that tool.

 

[watchweasol]

Hi Daniel  sounds like its a bit confusing what with everyone having a differe.nt opinion.  My self I fit the springs by hand and have done so for many years. So as far as having an opinion on the winders I shall have to leave that to the persons who use them,  I know the Bergeon one uses a red dot on the handle for one type and a blue dot for the other, not much help.         all the best

[Kalanag]

21 hours ago, DanielGato said:

1) Do I need to have the "right handle" to use "right winders"?

2) Are the right and left handle for "right and left" handed people or are does that direction actually matter to wind a mainspring?

You do not need any handle. You can grab the winder without the handle.

If you turn the crank right (clockwise) the right handle will lock safely to the winder the left handle will not.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Kalanag

[nickelsilver]

Just for clarity, there are the arbors (right and left), the drums (universal) and the handles (right and left).

1- The handles are specific for right or left hand wind springs. As Kalang said, you don't need the handle; it's easy enough to just hold the drum (I can't remember when I used the handle).

2- See 1

3- The dimensions given are the outside diameter of the drum of the winder. So a 13mm would fit inside a barrel with an internal diameter of 13+ mm.

4- The arbor is specific to its drum , with some exceptions. If you check this link, you will see all the Bergeon winders listed by number, also with drum diameter and arbor diameter. For a #9 winder, with 13mm drum, the arbor measures 4mm diameter. It happens that the #10 winder uses the same size arbor. Looking at that list, I see there are 8 different arbor diameters, for 19 different drum diameters. Yes, the arbor is performing the function of the barrel arbor when using the winder.

 

5- It depends. Sometimes you can go quite a bit smaller than the measured internal barrel diameter with the winder, but it isn't a hard rule. Remember that since the drum needs to fit inside the barrel, after accounting for the wall thickness of the drum the actual space to wind in the spring becomes significantly smaller than the normal space the spring should fit into even for a drum that is close in size to the internal diameter of the barrel.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by nickelsilver

[DanielGato]

3 hours ago, watchweasol said:

. So as far as having an opinion on the winders I shall have to leave that to the persons who use them,

Sorry, I was not clear. I meant it appears, for example, that on the question "Are the right/left handle to be coupled with right/left winder" there is a bit of disagreement. Of course, each person has its own habits and tool choices are totally 

@nickelsilver@KalanagThank you for that clear answer. I was under the impression I would need the handle. I'm going to skip them then.

@nickelsilverSo if I get it correctly, I could use a handle that has the "plate part" bigger than the drum? Because I use the arbor #12 (4.5mm diameter and 16mm "plate part") it will fit with the # 11 (4.5mm diameter and 15mm "plate part") 

@nickelsilver If I get it right, the size that Bergeon shows (#12, 16mm) this fits in a barrel that has an inside diameter of 16mm? On top of that, could I get the right drum #10 and then only purchase the left arbor #10 as the arbor is quite cheaper?

I'm assuming that for my pocket watches, when we have barrels that are 17.4mm and 15.6 there is more room than on those smaller sizes.

Thank you so much for all that clarity!

Edited August 21, 2022 by DanielGato

[nickelsilver]

6 minutes ago, DanielGato said:

@nickelsilverSo if I get it correctly, I could use a handle that has the "plate part" bigger than the drum? Because I use the arbor #12 (4.5mm diameter and 16mm "plate part") it will fit with the # 11 (4.5mm diameter and 15mm "plate part") 

@nickelsilver If I get it right, the size that Bergeon shows (#12, 16mm) this fits in a barrel that has an inside diameter of 16mm?

I'm assuming that for my pocket watches, when we have barrels that are 17.4mm and 15.6 there is more room than on those smaller sizes.

Thank you so much for all that clarity!

Yes, as long as the cover (plate part) covers the drum you're fine. I also often use smaller arbors in larger winder, as long as the cover is large enough, as many springs have an inner curve a bit too small for a given drum size. The "slop" in size difference of the arbor isn't (usually) an issue.

 

If you have a drum that measures 16mm- and my #12 does measure exactly that- it will have a hard time fitting in a barrel with an internal diameter of exactly 16mm. 16.10mm no problem; exactly 16mm it may bind in the barrel.

 

There is a bit more leeway when substituting larger sizes, yes, but only to a point. Trial and error will tell you how far you can go undersize with the winder.

[DanielGato]

Thank you so much for those precisions.

while looking at videos and reading online it made me think I needed the whole 1000$ Bergeon.

But now with your answers I can get away for 120$ and be able to use on my 5 pocket watches / watches. It is cheaper than those Chinese winder packs.

I'll get a new drum as I get a new watch. That should dilute my spendings over time. 

Thank you again!!

[nickelsilver]

Another thing- if you keep the little rings the springs come in you can pretty much avoid needing the left hand arbors- just wind up the spring normally  and insert into the ring, now you can install it in the barrel whichever way is needed.

[Kalanag]

2 hours ago, DanielGato said:

…But now with your answers I can get away for 120$ and be able to use on my 5 pocket watches / watches. It is cheaper than those Chinese winder packs...

CousinsUK sells single winders from these Chinese sets for £16,60 plus tax. I am happy with these items. The hooks are from steel meanwhile!

Mainspring Winder

[DanielGato]

@KalanagI watched a very long video on YouTube where they reviewed that kind of set and the take away was that the hook on the arbor would break very easily - specially for beginners that have no idea what they are doing. I will give it a try.

@nickelsilverClever tip, I'll try it.

Thank you for all this information

[Kalanag]

30 minutes ago, DanielGato said:

@KalanagI watched a very long video on YouTube where they reviewed that kind of set and the take away was that the hook on the arbor would break very easily - specially for beginners that have no idea what they are doing. I will give it a try.

As I said this flaw (hooks from brass) is history!  

EDIT: It is still brass as a magnet and my microscope told me! Sorry for my missleading information! 
But I‘m sure as a hobbyist you won’t use this winder frequently enough to wear the hook down.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Kalanag

[odlmag]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:26 PM, Kalanag said:

CousinsUK sells single winders from these Chinese sets for £16,60 plus tax. I am happy with these items. The hooks are from steel meanwhile!

Hi,

Found this thread while researching mainspring winders. Just broke my second mainspring and feel that i need to start using winders instead!

I was intersted in these winders you mentioned, but since they are sold as movement specific how do you know which one to use? I service mostly watches from 50s - 90s. Trial and error if you have a few winders? Or did you reseach all the mentioned movements tech sheets to find their actual sizes?

Basically which 3-4 would fit most needs? As i have read that Bergeon 5,6 and 7 would be ok for most services.

Best rgrds

[Kalanag]

See here:

Mainspring Winder Data

[odlmag]

On 3/13/2023 at 10:43 AM, Kalanag said:

See here:

Mainspring Winder Data

Thanks ! Interesting data! But it lead me directly further down the rabbit hole...

For example:

If I buy the Cousins version, and need to do a 11mm barrel, I would then choose the ETA2824 winder (?). This one has an arbor of 2,4mm . However the closest Bergeon, nr 7, has an arbor of 3,5mm.

So which would be better for general use in semi vintage (automatic) watches? I've seen most say that the Bergeon 5,6,7 would work fo most watches. But none of these have below 3mm arbors. Whereas the Cousins set contains no arbor above 3mm. 

So how do I go about this? Are the arbor sizes sensitive alot of the time?
Buy the Bergoen ones for alot more ££, including the nr 4 size, and use it's arbor in one of the larger barrels (if thats possible) when needed?