Balance staff replacement, tool inquiry

[Charette]

Hi all - this is a continuation of my 'wobbly balance' thread. I have been unsuccessful in communicating with my local watchmaker to have the staff replaced. Perhaps he will still get back to me. In the mean time I figure maybe I will try to change the staff myself.

In watching a lot of videos, all of the examples of how the balance spring is attached to the cock are different from what I have. In front of me seems more 'crude'. Nothing to unscrew. Can anyone provide advise on this or a link to a video with a similar balance?

Also, I see this balance tool pop up on aliexpress - does anyone have any experience with these? Is this kind of like a dumbed down version of the Bergeon platax tool?

 

And here are some photos of my balance. There are no distinguishing marks on the movement to tell me what it is, besides '17 jewels' and made in Switzerland.

Thanks for your time.

 

[watchweasol]

Hi  The tool does indeed look like the base of the Platax tool with out the upper portion or the plate.  To remove the balance from the cock you need to turn the boot portion of the regulator to release the balance spring then press out the stud to free the wheel from the cock. remove roller first noting the position of the impulse jewel and then the spring after marking the rim at the position where the stud rests. Take plenty of pictures  of the above positions this will enable you to reassemble the balance once the new staff is fitted.  all the best

[Charette]

4 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  The tool does indeed look like the base of the Platax tool with out the upper portion or the plate.  To remove the balance from the cock you need to turn the boot portion of the regulator to release the balance spring then press out the stud to free the wheel from the cock. remove roller first noting the position of the impulse jewel and then the spring after marking the rim at the position where the stud rests. Take plenty of pictures  of the above positions this will enable you to reassemble the balance once the new staff is fitted.  all the best

Much appreciated, it was mainly the press out of the stud I was wondering about. 
Looking at the regulator, I am not sure how turning it helps me? I likely do not 100% understand the situation here.

[watchweasol]

The regulator has three components the boot, the pin  and the frame.  to release the spring you need to turn the boot portion  90 deg to the frame away (there is a slot in the boot to enable you to turn it). from the pin , this will enable you to lift off the balance cock free from the wheel or vice versa.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Charette said:

I likely do not 100% understand the situation here.

Usually people don't try to tackle replacing balance staffs until They have worked on a few watches and grasp more aspects of how the watch works. Replacing a balance staff is considered a higher-level skills.

2 hours ago, Charette said:

'wobbly balance' thread

In the wobbly balanced discussion did you ever figure out why your balance wheel is wobbly?

Then perhaps the most important thing is have you identified your watch to purchase a staff because typically get a replacement staff you have to know what the watches. We can if you measure these old staff possibly figure out what it is in get a replacement.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Charette said:

Hi all - this is a continuation of my 'wobbly balance' thread. I have been unsuccessful in communicating with my local watchmaker to have the staff replaced. Perhaps he will still get back to me. In the mean time I figure maybe I will try to change the staff myself.

In watching a lot of videos, all of the examples of how the balance spring is attached to the cock are different from what I have. In front of me seems more 'crude'. Nothing to unscrew. Can anyone provide advise on this or a link to a video with a similar balance?

Also, I see this balance tool pop up on aliexpress - does anyone have any experience with these? Is this kind of like a dumbed down version of the Bergeon platax tool?

 

And here are some photos of my balance. There are no distinguishing marks on the movement to tell me what it is, besides '17 jewels' and made in Switzerland.

Thanks for your time.

 

Hi Charette, balance staff replacement is not an easy job for a beginner.  Assuming you have a staking set to rivet the new staff in place. Quite an expensive tool investment.  And as John has mentioned you will need to identify the movement first or be in a position to very accurately measure the staff's various dimensions . If the pivots of the staff are broken you will be guessing the staff's length. So an id. Of the movement is probably your only option. Look all over the movement once it is stripped down sometimes the train bridge sometimes stamps, logos or initials on the mainplate. If nothing then matching up the keyless works to a known brand and calibre is your next step.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If nothing then matching up the keyless works to a known brand and calibre is your next step.

Yes if all else fails this is the best way. There are still other options you can sometimes measure the  staff and from that size alone figure out the watch or replacement staff or you can do it with the Stamm sometimes. I once identified I got really close by just measuring the stem and looking up the sizes of that.

But by far the best is somebody gives us the diameter the movement from the dial side because in pictures the watches all look the same size and nobody's going to waste their time looking up somebody's mystery movement if they can't help us and give us the diameter. Then of course we need a picture of the keyless components and then we can look up or try to. There is a problem though in that they do not go back to the beginning of time and they don't go forward to the end of time and this watch is probably too old but it doesn't look super alts there is a possibility but I do know in the bestfit book for instance it doesn't seem to have every watch ever made  even for the time span that these books were in existence.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

There are still other options you can sometimes measure the  staff and from that size alone figure out the watch or replacement staff or you can do it with the Stamm sometimes. I once identified I got really close by just measuring the stem and looking up the sizes of that.

This is a good idea. You will need to have  an accurate measuring device.  I measured hundreds of stems and staffs about a month ago as i received a jumbled assortment of opened boxes of them from ebay. Using balance staff and stem .com i was able to sort through and rebox most of them. Some random stems were just thrown in from elsewhere. Veeerry time consuming and i have to admit not foolproof for identifing a watch. I used an accurate Bergeon bench micrometer so unlikely i could do any better with anything else and quite often the dimensions were a few hundredths of a millimeter out against their database sizes which sometimes gave a few options of matching up a movement to them. This was taken from from 6 different dimensions of a watch stem. Some different movements where extremely close throughtout all their dimensions but still not exact. But obviously still gave you a limited number of options to match up keyless works from. But again veeerrry time consuming. I may have to assume that their measuring device was not as accurate as mine .  Do men think 6  inches is smaller than it actually is or women think its larger than it actually is  

Edited August 17, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Charette]

Thanks all. I was planning to measure the existing staff and extrapolate for what I assumed was a broken pivot, but I am hearing perhaps this is not the best idea. 
I’ll have to put together the watch again to get photos of the keyless works. This one may sit in the 'to do' area for a while it seems. 
I have scoured the watch for any markings but cannot find anything than otherwise mentioned, mysteriously.

[Charette]

Here are some photos of the keyless works and movement prior to disassembly.

The main plate is 43mm in diameter. Had another good look tonight for branding of any sort but none was to be found.

Appreciate the help all. 
Edit - I discovered the Dr. Ranfft database and my selections resulted in 0 results. 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Charette

[anilv]

Make sure if its really the balance staff that is the issue.

First observe the staff as you wobble it, if the staff doesn't move then the issue is the balance rim is loose on the staff, this can be corrected by re-staking if the hole in the balance is not distorted too badly. Also the wobble may be simply a balance wheel not being level and it shows up as a wobble when it spins. Do not attempt to straighten it with the balance installed, the pivots will break. The balance-spring and roller plate needs to be removed and the staff re-staked.

If the balance wheel and staff are solidly affixed, next observe the amount of endplay (ie up down). On its own, too much endshake would not contribute to wobble (as the pivots are a close fit into the hole) unless the pivots or jewels are damaged. Close inspection here will identify which pivot is the problem. Do this inspection dial up and dial down.

Next dismount the balance and inspect the pivots. You may find on pivot shorter than the other.. the shorter one is the broken one. If both pivots look ok (post pictures here for comments) then the depth of the jewels could have shifted. This is rare but happens, especially on older watches where the jewel holes were hand-drilled. Reinstall the balance and balance jewels and inspect the roller jewel and its interface with the pallet fork. lift the balance up against the upper (balance cock side) jewel and see if the roller jewel still fits in the pallet fork. If it does then you can try to push the lower jewel (mainplate side) up a bit with a right size bit of rod. (note if the jewel is already flush on the side that faces the balance this will not work.

Related to the jewel spacing, check if the balance cock is level with the main plate as this will affect the endplay and if too great the balance may wobble as well.

Good luck.

Anilv

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 hours ago, Charette said:

Thanks all. I was planning to measure the existing staff and extrapolate for what I assumed was a broken pivot, but I am hearing perhaps this is not the best idea. 
I’ll have to put together the watch again to get photos of the keyless works. This one may sit in the 'to do' area for a while it seems. 
I have scoured the watch for any markings but cannot find anything than otherwise mentioned, mysteriously.

The stem is actually easier to measure than the balance staff if using this method for identifying the watch. But as mentioned earlier it may throw up a few options and also depends on how accurately you can do this. Here is the method i would use. Go to watchstem. Com website, which is acually a stem and staff vendor but can also be used as an extensive database.  Here you will see how to measure the 6 dimensions of the stem . Once you have these, 2 of those dimensions are used and entered into check boxes to put you into a ball park position of a movement with maybe 50 options but that figure can vary. From this limited number of options you can then narrow the options down by checking the remaining dimensions.  You should then end up with a few options only and if really lucky an exact match. Once you have your option/options visit ranfft's database of movements to match up the keyless works. Its a bit time consuming but unless you have the bestfit books or the downloads of them, this is the next best way. The easiest way is to photograph the keyless works and let folk on here identify it for you, the downside to this is you wont learn anything from it. I'm all for figuring things out oneself. The bestfit books downloads will be a great asset to you. Just to briefly add having the movement ligne size will help to quickly exclude or include your movement options .Good luck matey.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Shane]

On 8/17/2022 at 3:41 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

6  inches

Is that why the whole world went metric?  Saying over 150 mm sounds more impressive.

Double check that this end stone is installed correctly.  Even though the screw looks flush, there isn't any radiusing around its periphery (suggesting this side may need to go against the plate).  The light also isn't reflecting off the jewel in the same way as the other end stone.  It, at least on my phone, look flatter and closer to the visible surface of it's setting.

Good luck.

Shane 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Shane

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Shane said:

Is that why the whole world went metric?  Saying over 150 mm sounds more impressive

Lol. I might start using lignes as a measurement reference that will confuse the fairer of our species 

[Charette]

All this talk about the stem - this particular watch has the ‘stem’/setting and winding mechanism built into the case - see photos. The movement just ‘plugs in’ when casing it up. So I am out of luck on measuring the stem I think. 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi  The mainplate measures 43mm which equates to 19 1/2  lignes. I have looked up in the Bestfit  books  under the Round"  19 1/2 L   and found nothing which resembles your keyless work as such. from your pictures  it appears to have two  horse shoe  springs that operate the detents  no setting lever spring "Flume" and has three moving parts

The bestfit books can be bought from the link below.

https://mccawcompany.com/featured-products/bestfit-encyclopedia-books-111-111a-digital-download-pdf-version.html

 

[Charette]

1 minute ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  The mainplate measures 43mm which equates to 19 1/2  lignes. I have looked up in the Bestfit  books  under the Round"  19 1/2 L   and found nothing which resembles your keyless work as such. from your pictures  it appears to have two  horse shoe  springs that operate the detents  no setting lever spring "Flume" and has three moving parts

The bestfit books can be bought from the link below.

https://mccawcompany.com/featured-products/bestfit-encyclopedia-books-111-111a-digital-download-pdf-version.html

 

Thank you - the link does not work for me but I will google it. Any advice on where to go from here if this does not match anything in the books?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Charette said:

All this talk about the stem - this particular watch has the ‘stem’/setting and winding mechanism built into the case - see photos. The movement just ‘plugs in’ when casing it up. So I am out of luck on measuring the stem I think. 

 

Ah ok maybe so. I wasn't aware that this was a pocket watch sorry. But at least you have some good useable information for another project

10 minutes ago, Charette said:

Thank you - the link does not work for me but I will google it. Any advice on where to go from here if this does not match anything in the books?

Is the case for this made of silver, if so and has a silver hallmark you can then date the watch providing the case is the original. This then may give you an idea if identification is possible. Can we see  good close ups of both sides of the mainplate, train bridge and the dial back and front. One of us may spot something in the way of an identification mark. 

18 hours ago, anilv said:

Make sure if its really the balance staff that is the issue.

First observe the staff as you wobble it, if the staff doesn't move then the issue is the balance rim is loose on the staff, this can be corrected by re-staking if the hole in the balance is not distorted too badly. Also the wobble may be simply a balance wheel not being level and it shows up as a wobble when it spins. Do not attempt to straighten it with the balance installed, the pivots will break. The balance-spring and roller plate needs to be removed and the staff re-staked.

If the balance wheel and staff are solidly affixed, next observe the amount of endplay (ie up down). On its own, too much endshake would not contribute to wobble (as the pivots are a close fit into the hole) unless the pivots or jewels are damaged. Close inspection here will identify which pivot is the problem. Do this inspection dial up and dial down.

Next dismount the balance and inspect the pivots. You may find on pivot shorter than the other.. the shorter one is the broken one. If both pivots look ok (post pictures here for comments) then the depth of the jewels could have shifted. This is rare but happens, especially on older watches where the jewel holes were hand-drilled. Reinstall the balance and balance jewels and inspect the roller jewel and its interface with the pallet fork. lift the balance up against the upper (balance cock side) jewel and see if the roller jewel still fits in the pallet fork. If it does then you can try to push the lower jewel (mainplate side) up a bit with a right size bit of rod. (note if the jewel is already flush on the side that faces the balance this will not work.

Related to the jewel spacing, check if the balance cock is level with the main plate as this will affect the endplay and if too great the balance may wobble as well.

Good luck.

Anilv

 

 

Good advice anilv, we did discuss most of this on the wobbly balance thread, I'm unsure if the issue was diagnosed though

[watchweasol]

Hi  In the absence of any numbers of any kind or makers mark/logo  its an up hill task to identify the movement .

The bestfit books were put on the site by Old Hippy using  "mediafire.com" as he owned them there was no breach of copyright and could be downloaded.

In the search box type "mediafire.com" in quotes and it will give you all the instances of the term. I have just checked and they are still there. Unfortunatly the Pocketwatchdatabase.com will not be of any use as it requires  serial numbers..   I think before going any further we should determine whether the balance staff is actually broken and requires replacing, is it possible to post a picture of the balance so we can see both pivots.  Thank you.

[JohnR725]

44 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

The mainplate measures 43mm which equates to 19 1/2  lignes. I have looked up in the Bestfit  books  under the Round"  19 1/2 L   and found nothing which resembles your keyless work as such. from your pictures  it appears to have two  horse shoe  springs that operate the detents  no setting lever spring "Flume" and has three moving parts

the only problem with the bestfit books are the only cover a specific time spanned and even over that time span they do not cover every single watch.

I looked in a different book that goes back much farther and does have some stems like this one as in other words the lack of a stamp and I saw zero reference to this watch which is not unexpected there were a heck of a lot of watches of this type made that there is no identification for

this means of the absolutely had to have a staff you have to take it out disassemble measure everything and we do a search to see if we can find a staff if you're really lucky we would find one. Or the likely we might find one that's close and with your lathe that typically people new to watch repair don't have because they become expensive with all the bits and pieces and they require skill set. But if you had the lathe you could either modify existing staff or just make a new one which would solve your problem.

But if you still have pivots on that staff then we should find out what the problem really is as opposed to attempting to replace the staff with very likely a custom-made staff either you will spend the hundreds probably thousands of dollars to acquire the tools or you could send it out to have some a custom make staff which is definitely not justified for a watch of this quality unless this was some family heirloom where money is no object.

[Charette]

I will try to get some photos of the staff later this evening. I was finding it hard to get the lower pivot through the spring on the microscope, but was pretty sure the top pivot was shorter, had an odd angle like it was snapped off.

The case is only a base metal, nothing fancy.

Indeed, this was was just meant as a practice and was acquired for very little. It has been a fun process regardless if I can get it to run again.

[Neverenoughwatches]

47 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  In the absence of any numbers of any kind or makers mark/logo  its an up hill task to identify the movement .

The bestfit books were put on the site by Old Hippy using  "mediafire.com" as he owned them there was no breach of copyright and could be downloaded.

In the search box type "mediafire.com" in quotes and it will give you all the instances of the term. I have just checked and they are still there. Unfortunatly the Pocketwatchdatabase.com will not be of any use as it requires  serial numbers..   I think before going any further we should determine whether the balance staff is actually broken and requires replacing, is it possible to post a picture of the balance so we can see both pivots.  Thank you.

Sound advice WW. If the staff is ok then besides wanting to identify the movement for curiosity then possibly not necessarily worth the effort. I did manage to download the bestfits from the forum but not through old hippy's mediafire post though. Someone else had posted a link to another download, took me a while. Maybe just worth buying it, i think its a tenner.

52 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the only problem with the bestfit books are the only cover a specific time spanned and even over that time span they do not cover every single watch.

I looked in a different book that goes back much farther and does have some stems like this one as in other words the lack of a stamp and I saw zero reference to this watch which is not unexpected there were a heck of a lot of watches of this type made that there is no identification for

this means of the absolutely had to have a staff you have to take it out disassemble measure everything and we do a search to see if we can find a staff if you're really lucky we would find one. Or the likely we might find one that's close and with your lathe that typically people new to watch repair don't have because they become expensive with all the bits and pieces and they require skill set. But if you had the lathe you could either modify existing staff or just make a new one which would solve your problem.

But if you still have pivots on that staff then we should find out what the problem really is as opposed to attempting to replace the staff with very likely a custom-made staff either you will spend the hundreds probably thousands of dollars to acquire the tools or you could send it out to have some a custom make staff which is definitely not justified for a watch of this quality unless this was some family heirloom where money is no object.

I do enjoy your input John. You always make great logical sense with your advice that folk can learn from

51 minutes ago, Charette said:

Indeed, this was was just meant as a practice and was acquired for very little. It has been a fun process regardless if I can get it to run again.

Good positive approach to watch repair charette. Learn from every project regardless of the outcome. If it runs then thats a bonus.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Charette said:

Indeed, this was was just meant as a practice and was acquired for very little. It has been a fun process regardless if I can get it to run again.

this is where on a practice watch acquired cheap where you make a decision as to how far you want to go. Also as a practice watch have you been practicing with it? Like how many times have you taken apart and put it back together how good are you at putting it together without breaking the pivots off. When people learn watch repair at least in school they practice a lot at doing tasks they don't just do a one time it's done multiple of times.

If you decide that replacing the staff and actually making this watch run is almost impossible it still has value as a watch to practice taking apart putting back together and getting familiar with everything. It's also a good lesson to learn that unfortunately every single watch cannot be restored and made the run again at least not in a practical sense. 

 

[watchweasol]

A common sense approach by John and what he says is well justified. Just the process of discussing of the problem and the advice given  has been a lesson and some thing has been gleaned from it. You now understand the the mechanics of a watch and the diagnostic approach and the dificulties encountered in working with Vintage/Antique watches. I believe that is Johns forte as he works on them most of all. As a practice piece  it is priceless.  good luck and all the best.