Straightening Accutron index and/or pawl fingers. Fools errand? Possible?

[MrRoundel]

Greetings all,

I've been working on a few Accutrons of late. It started with one that was gift to me. I find them very interesting, and marvel at their engineering. Who wouldn't, right?

Of the two that are on my bench right now, one needs an index wheel, the other needed the index and pawl jewels cleaned better than a dip in One-Dip. Of course I didn't realize that until I put it (A 2242 Accuquartz) back together and it wasn't staying running and I looked at the jewels under higher magnification. Despite some advising against putting the fork/index finger/jewel and pawl-bridge/finger/jewel in the ultrasonic, I was told by an Accutron expert that it would be OK, so I did so. I definitely cleaned off the gunk. I used fresh cleaner and ran a rare earth magnet through the cleaner before putting the parts basket in.

The issue I'm dealing with now is that the pawl finger got bent. It must have been sitting too low, or the upper fork screw was sitting too high. When I spun the finger around to avoid damaging it, it hung up on that screw. Then it somehow got lifted over the hack pin as I was trying to get the index wheel in position without high enough magnification to notice it happening. Anyway, I am now working to straighten the finger. It's not terrible, but I guess it needs to be rather perfect to work properly. First the jewel wasn't squaring with the index wheel. Then it was riding over the index wheel. Right now it will get the watch running slightly but it won't stay, at least at lower phasing voltages. It looks pretty square now, and isn't riding over the index wheel. The only obvious issue is that the stress limiter on the pawl finger is not engaged with the finger at all. Since the jewel was sitting so squarely with the index I decided it was worth at try, but the stress limiter may be more important than I hoped.

These fingers are so fragile, and manipulation has to be done under pretty high magnification, I just want to know if I should give  it up and buy a replacement or keep trying. Any help is appreciated. Thanks ahead of time. I'd include an image but I don't have a good way to do so with my microscope setup. Cheers.

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, MrRoundel said:

These fingers are so fragile, and manipulation has to be done under pretty high magnification, I just want to know if I should give  it up and buy a replacement or keep trying. Any help is appreciated. Thanks ahead of time. I'd include an image but I don't have a good way to do so with my microscope setup. Cheers.

It depends on how badly bent are the fingers. If there are any kinks or twists, then it's going to be really difficult. 

A good photo of the fingers would help in the assessment. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

These fingers are so fragile, and manipulation has to be done under pretty high magnification, I just want to know if I should give  it up and buy a replacement or keep trying.

It would be nice to tell us exactly which tuning fork watch your working on like its model number

Then yes definitely replace everything replace everything and make it perfect except problems. First the replacement will probably require some adjustment they usually just don't drop in perfectly as you noted the fingers are really easy to get out of where there supposed to be. Then replacement parts are not that easy to find this is a vintage watch all the tuning forks are vintage. Vintage means it's either going to be nearly impossible or possibly expensive or maybe both.

Then yes ideally you should work under a microscope. You need a really good hand eye coordination. Then you need practice and it looks like you're going to get lots of practice. So even if you were to order replacements you might as well go ahead and practice on the for anything in the future you want to do.

Then when the challenges your finding is when Bulova came out with a tuning fork watch they discovered that the watchmakers in the field weren't used to these newfangled tuning fork watches. So they set up a training program that went across the country and ran classes at 2 1/2 day class in learning how to work on the tuning fork watch. You otherwise the watchmakers were destroying all of their watches.

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, gents. I figured that it's a difficult row to hoe. Unfortunately, the finger did get a twist to it that's really hard to get out. I'm waiting on one of those special tools to bend the finger posts. I was able to bend it a bit, but it's nerve-wracking, as you have to push with a screwdriver, or twist with stouter tweezers to get it done.

Apparently somebody had bent it down before I got to it. Otherwise I can't see that it would have caught on the upper fork screw. Oh well...live and learn. I'll soldier on. I can buy a new part for a bit under $30. It's a nice watch so I'll probably bite the bullet and do it once I render the existing one more useless  than it is.

Oh, and JohnR725, the model is hidden in the second paragraph. It's a 2242 Accuquartz, the hybrid quartz/tuning fork model.

 

And, HectorLooi, I'll try to get an image up tomorrow. Thanks again, folks. Cheers.

 

 

Fortunately the index and pawl fingers are shared between the 224 and 218 series. It's the index wheel that I'd better be extra careful with, which I have been. Great watches, but some very fragile parts, to be sure.

Edited July 31, 2022 by MrRoundel
Add image sentence.

[HectorLooi]

The finger adjustment tools can be made with sewing needles. I think there is a video on YouTube where there is a mention sbout making these tools.

I find that it's easier to adjust the fingers nearer to the fixed end. It requires good lighting, a microscope, steady hands and nerves of steel.

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, HectorLooi. I've been using #5 Dumont tweezers as well as a brass pin in a pin vise so far. Sorry I haven't put up an images yet. I'm dealing with a very problematic back right now, so I'm not moving particularly well, when I move at all.

I didn't find anything on youtube regarding adjusting the fingers, I'll give it another search. Thanks. Cheers.

@JohnR725, BTW, I  hope you know that I wasn't trying to be snide about the model number being hidden. I only put it in after I realized it wasn't there, and it wasn't in the best place. Cheers. 

 

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, MrRoundel said:

, BTW, I  hope you know that I wasn't trying to be snide about the model number being hidden. I only put it in after I realized it wasn't there, and it wasn't in the best place. Cheers. 

Don't worry about it when you posted the model number the second time I have this vague memory that I remember seeing at the first time.

26 minutes ago, MrRoundel said:

I didn't find anything on youtube regarding adjusting the fingers, I'll give it another search. Thanks.

Looking at YouTube I was surprised there are way more videos and what I was expecting. The problem becomes which videos are useful for servicing which are not. So for your watch your looking for a video on the 218 because mechanically your watch is very similar to the 218 so the finger adjustments are going to be similar.

First video is one of four parts yes I know it's the wrong one but on the second video a comments about making a tool for bending the posts. Also picked this one because I recognize the person giving the videos as a really ancient Film converted the video.

https://youtu.be/ADpzwTdNvyY

AAs soon as you add in the number 218 the number of videos drops considerably. I just about gave somebody a thumbs down barrel walk away and not give someone a thumbs down for 218 video. Horrible music rapid assembly and oh I guess you don't have to adjust the fingers that was just breezed right over. So I have to remember these videos are made for entertainment purposes not for repair purposes. So there is conceivability that there may be no videos on adjusting anything other than the 214

 

[MrRoundel]

@JohnR725, Thanks for the link to the video. I will check it out.

I know what you mean about some of the obnoxious music, etc., that people use. Obviously my days as a prime demographic sailed long ago. Some make it obvious that they never read, or at least don't reference during work, the very instructive Accutron service guides. These watches are tricky even with the guides. Thanks again. Cheers.

 

I had watched this video a while back, but figured it wouldn't come in any more handy than the manual. I was wrong. I may have made another fatal error on this Accuquartz. I knew I had seen something about removing, or not removing parts from the US cleaner while the cleaner was activated. I didn't realize it was this video. And when I was forced to us the US to clean the finger jewels, I do like I usually do, and this is pull the basket as the cleaner is activated. Apparently, I may have demagnetized the fork. Hmm...I may have rendered a decent Accuquartz to a non-runner.

I wonder if the forks are the same strength of magnetization on the 218's and 224's? Rats. I'll keep messing with it to learn more of what not to do. Thanks again for the link, JohnR725. Cheers.

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by MrRoundel

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

These watches are tricky even with the guides.

Oh then there's the other thing? The service manual should be the absolute resource but what if it's not?

You bring this up because in the video he removed something and in my 214 manual that has been crossed out with a note not to remove something. It's basically the center jewel assembly for the sweep second pinion.  It's because assembling it can be easier if it's in place sometimes. But there's other things in May a letter been crossed out and that was based on taking a class given by Bulova. So there is the contradiction of what the manual has versus what Bulova's instructors were teaching

then of course you can see that even with the detailed manuals why the watch companies for their electric watches had to give classes to the watchmaker. As I said Bulova had a 2 1/2 day training class with asked that you had the pass at a certain percentage to get your certificates and not everyone pass the test. So yes there are skill sets you have to learn and you have to be very very careful they're not as forgiving as a mechanical watch where you can do a lot of bad things and it will still be okay and it will still run.

 

[MrRoundel]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh then there's the other thing? The service manual should be the absolute resource but what if it's not?

 

You talk about the notes jotted in the service manuals. I guess a lot of these were ones used by the students during the Accutron certification classes. There are a few notes in my 218 service manual relating to the sequence of setting the train wheels. I tried it the way the notes seem to say to do it but I found a sequence that worked better for me. I think I go Third wheel, fourth wheel, second wheel, index wheel.

And while some say they have an easier time getting the pivots home by leaving off the lower fourth wheel jewel until after the other pivots are set, I found it easier having the jewel installed. Cheers.

I'd sure love to attend one of those Frystack-type classes today. But his 214 presentation is certainly helpful, even applied to the other models.

Presently I'm waiting on the service manual for the 221 series. I have one that's running and am considering trying to get it to run better, or at least without self-destructing. Heck. that's what it has me for.

 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

. I guess a lot of these were ones used by the students during the Accutron certification classes.

I'm not sure you catching what I'm saying the notes in my manual were done by somebody who took the class and passed. Which by some weird quiz says that person has my exact name. Which explains why no what happened in the 2 1/2 day class even to this day I still remember the class. It still ranks as one of the hardest 2 1/2 days of lessons I've ever had.

Nine the old instructor was retiring a new instructor was taking over but my understanding was the Bulova shortly after this just drop the whole thing. So mine was supposed to been one of the last classes.

Then what made the class intent was instructor was really good but whenever he talked you looked at him he didn't want to looking at the microscope looking at anything it was a very clear procedure when he talked you looked then you looked at the microscope and adjust a really really intense thing. I does everybody said the same thing they basically want home and passed out until the next day cousin were so exhausted.

But on the other hand if you remember what happened all those years ago I guess they did a good.

Then the interesting aspect is they keep coming up for repair I thought I can go back to pocket watches but nope another one showed up on my bench today. It'd been sent away in 2018 the sum shop somewhere else they screwed up so the gaskets leaked or something leaked and while it's currently running its drawing slightly too much current. So basically I got to evaluate it for servicing a whole and then a course the oil On the end stones this is a 218 none of the oil was visible I have to wonder what they were using for lubrication?

[MrRoundel]

Sorry, I missed that you had actually taken the course yourself. Heck, you must be older than me. Hopefully you don't FEEL older than I.

As far as oiling those endstones that generally stay in the plate, I just bought an Horotec wire oiler that is made for getting through holes into shock-protection jewels, specifically Inca. It seems to work OK. I suspect you have the Bergeon automatic oiler(s)?

I wonder if the Moebius oils with the UV activated coloration would be visible, and therefore helpful. I think that's what I bought last time for both 9010 and HP1300/9104, FWIW. Good luck with your Accutron. Cheers.

 

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

Sorry, I missed that you had actually taken the course yourself. Heck, you must be older than me. Hopefully you don't FEEL older than I.

As long as I don't think about my age I don't feel old.

2 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

. I suspect you have the Bergeon automatic oiler(s)?

Yes it would seem like I would have an automatic oiler but no I do things the old-fashioned way. A little drop of oil is placed into the hole jewel and a really tiny wires used to bleed it down inside. Then I turn it over and verify that you can see that the oil has gone were supposed to be.

2 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

I wonder if the Moebius oils with the UV activated coloration would be visible, and therefore helpful. I think that's what I bought last time for both 9010

Yes if you know what you're looking for you can see that there's a boil when you've oiled but is something much more important. That's why a letter yesterday when there was a 218 they came in for evaluation that had been serviced by some East Coast service center at amusing price. Amusing only because when they started adding in all the bits and pieces the servicing got really expensive. But no oil was seen on the end stones. That makes me suspicious of what oil they were using.

For instance I snipped out an image from the 218 service manual notice that uses the symbol V to indicate where the oil does on the bottom of the page it says what it is goes by a name or at another number are you familiar with that oil? Notice the name of Synta-Visco-Lube? That's actually my favorite light oil. The reason I point this out is not good to you the number see you can look it up because we use the standard light oil it's not going to stay where you want it to be which is why am suspicious of the watch at work and yes it was drawing more current consumption although whatever they did with the crystal and back gasket it had a leakage and is a possibility of corrosion but the current was definitely higher as I compared it to another 218 that I just service last week I think I was at like six and slightly more microamps and they were like 10 1/2 µA with their Dry pivots

 

[MrRoundel]

@JohnR725Forget I ever mentioned anything about age.

Is there really such a thing today as "Synta Visco Lube"?  I was wondering what the Moebius equivalent would be for the two oils (OK, one grease, one oil) that the manual suggests. I have Moebius 9000 for quartz watches. Would that be a good substitute? I've been using 9010.

BTW, have you seen the Horotec oiler I mentioned? I don't recall having seen them sold until very recently. It's possible that they've been around for years but I just missed them. The wire that they use is very thin indeed. Maybe even .06mm, if that's possible?

I received the Accutron  index/pawl post tool yesterday and I'll see how that works for getting the pawl finger sitting better. Maybe I'll get lucky and I didn't de-mag the fork by pulling it from the US while it was running. I hope I wouldn't have to be lottery-winning lucky for it to be possible. Cheers.

 

 

 

@JohnR725Oh, and BTW, since you attended Accutron class, and are obviously quite knowledgeable about them, I'm wondering if you know an Accutron expert named "Samantha"? She used to post Accutron related posts on the NAWCC board but I haven't seen her for a couple of years now. She seemed to really know her way around them. I'm just curious to what happened to her? Cheers.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by MrRoundel
Add tool image

[nickelsilver]

Synta Visco Lube is 9020, Synta Lube is 9010.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Synta Visco Lube is 9020, Synta Lube is 9010

You weren't supposed to say it's supposed to be a secret.

 

2 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

"Synta Visco Lube"?  I was wondering what the Moebius equivalent

Unfortunately the secret is out. If you look at their website there oils used always have names they still have names there still listed on the websites but now we tend to go with numbers.

 

2 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

have you seen the Horotec oiler I mentioned?

I don't know why the picture always has the wrong description? It's not actually for putting oil on his for bleeding of the oil in. I find that just the tip works the best because the tip is really breakable and just having to tip is easier to deal with

.then somewhere with the last month or two in this group we discussed using that plus people had a lot of other interesting ideas for doing the same thing like using really fine wire which would definitely be less breakable of this is

2 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

Oh, and BTW, since you attended Accutron class, and are obviously quite knowledgeable about them, I'm wondering if you know an Accutron expert named "Samantha"? She used to post Accutron related posts on the NAWCC board but I haven't seen her for a couple of years now. She seemed to really know her way around them. I'm just curious to what happened to her? Cheers.

Thinking of the other group you might find the attached PDF of interest. I was trying to upload it yesterday on the other group but it Being rejected. Not sure why so all just attach it here as you may find of interest.

Then Samantha yes I do know who it is she worked in the Bulova factory. Specifically worked on tuning fork watches which is why her postings of stuff were very very helpful. I think I PDF to most of those discussions for safekeeping. If you do a search for her name will find that she was last on the discussion group In May. Which makes sense because pretty sure I had seen her posting something relatively recently. That group doesn't seem be quite as active is this for watch repair because watch repair is just a tiny section of the entire message board.

 

 

221.pdf

[MrRoundel]

@JohnR725Thanks for the great download! I'll spend time with it.

I guess I was a little light on the oiling by using the wire oiler without another conventional oiler first. I did see oil in the recess. But I will know in the future that the wire is more of a finish step to draw the oil onto the cap. At least that what I think I'm picking up from your comments. Thanks for clearing that up.

On the Moebius oils, I just replaced some rather old Nye oil that I've had. I was using the 9010 for all wheels except the center wheel, on which I'm  using the Synt-HP 1300. I hope that's not a terrible thing. It seemed to make sense to me. So the train in an Accutron is under more pressure, thereby requiring the 9020 oil? I was under the impression that there was less pressure in the Accutron. It's probably a good thing I don't work on watches for a living.

I seem to remember reading that Samantha had worked at Bulova, I just wasn't certain. Thanks. Cheers.

 

[Alastair]

Moebius 9000 for first two wheels, 9020 for most others... These are what Ive always used.

Train is under very little pressure, enough force only to turn train wheels and hands, and overcome very light force of seconds brake-spring.--No Mainspring transmitting torque--These drive the other way!

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

On 8/2/2022 at 2:50 PM, MrRoundel said:

I received the Accutron  index/pawl post tool yesterday

It's about time I get one of these. I've been adjusting the posts with tweezers and it's...well, less than ideal. Do you have any idea if they're the same across all models, or if the 214/218/219 use different diameter posts?

As for the fingers, I have straightened them out using fine tweezers and a sharpened oiler with good success. It's very much like hairspring work, so if you look up videos on that, it may help you out.

[JohnR725]

34 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Do you have any idea if they're the same across all models, or if the 214/218/219 use different diameter posts?

doesn't answer your questions sort of but nice to have pictures from the catalogs.

then just in case you run into any other tools here was one of the other service kits

I don't think the 219 gets a service tools all by its own as it probably made use of 214, 218 tools. Then it's too old for the catalog I have but I also know there was one for the 221 as they have separate movement holders and things and there was something else for the 224 but I think that's just a thing for phasing there is no actual post spending tools etc.

 

 

[MrRoundel]

Unfortunately, I found the tool I bought didn't actually work for the 218 series, so the particular tool might be for the 214 only. I wished in one hand...again.

JohnR275 is correct about that tool for the phasing of 224 series Accuquartz movements. It looks like a movement holder with a couple of thin probes built in. If you have one of the Bulova series 300(?) movement holder with the removable probes and nylon sizing pegs, it may work even better. Good luck with your Accutron. Sorry about the late response. Cheers.

 

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

18 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

I found the tool I bought didn't actually work for the 218 series

I found the same thing, and looking at the catalog John posted, it doesn't look like they make one for the 218. I wonder why?

-Joe

[MrRoundel]

That is a very good question. It's not that easy to bend the post with tweezers, etc., as it has a lot of movement at the bottom where the hack spring is. Who knows? Good luck with your Accutron(s). Cheers.