Can you guys kindly look over my final checklist of tools to get started on a budget before I blow my wad?

[watchweasol]

Hi By the look of it you have had a great list and advice on what and not to buy, pity the little glass jars are unavailable in the US ans they are realy handy in the U/s,  My Grand daughter works in a Hotel so got plenty.  also movement covers, in the UK we have scented candles that come in what looks like a whisky glass, when finished clean it out super glue a marble on top and hey presto a movement cover, paint pallets make good dismantling trays al though I have a ladies eyeshadow kit cleaned out of course,  with several compartments and a lid, also for parts cleaning the ball type tea strainer makes a good basket. I have seen these advertised on ebay for in excess of a £5.  I too am  Scots but being brought up in Yorkshire look not to waste money.  As N.E.W said antything with a watchmakers tag carries a price Bergeon being the "best" at removing money from your wallet. Good loups,  good tweezers(Dumont) and screw drivers F*F,  Horotec and of course Bergeon are the things to spend money on.  My cleaning machine Cost a £10 with no basket the ultrasonic transducers were buggered  but I stripped it down and it all works including the heater the U/s generator works but of course no sonics. Used mainlt for clocks.  A cleaning solurtion I used to use was beaucare a spot cleaning soloution (Trichloroetheylene) now bannes I think it used to be used in the dry cleaning industry years ago.  Now naptha and IPA.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

in the UK we have scented candles that come in what looks like a whisky glass, when finished clean it out super glue a marble on top and hey presto a movement cover, paint pallets make good dismantling trays al though I have a ladies eyeshadow kit cleaned out of course,  with several compartments and a lid, also for parts cleaning the ball type tea strainer makes a good basket. I have seen these advertised on ebay for in excess of a £5.  I too am  Scots but being brought up in Yorkshire look not to waste money.  As N.E.W said antything with a watchmakers tag carries a price Bergeon being the "best"

Oh yeess. WW you are the master of ingenuity.  I knew you wouldn't let our side down. Love you Scottish buddy x

Edited July 20, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnFrum]

So a 2.5L bottle of either reagent: 2-Propanol  (IPA) or Petroleum Ether - 2-Methyl-Pentane (Benzine/Naptha) costs about 35 USD here. Laboratory grade. The Petroleum Ether they have in stock is available in two formulations - one with boiling range 40-60 C and the other with boiling range 60-80 C.   

Edited July 20, 2022 by JohnFrum

[dadistic]

If you are considering spending that much on cleaning fluid, why not get proper watch cleaning fluid?

I use the Zenith Hi-Tech cleaner and Hi-Solv rinse in my ultrasonic, and it works very,very well for me. These don't produce much in the way of fumes, either.

https://www.esslinger.com/zenith-hi-tech-watch-and-clock-cleaner-solution-1-gallon/

Good Luck!

 

[JohnFrum]

10 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

* Use the blue #6 arbour and #7 winder for Seiko barrels. Add the blue handle and you're set

Is the #7 winder also left handed?

24 minutes ago, dadistic said:

If you are considering spending that much on cleaning fluid, why not get proper watch cleaning fluid?

Doubt this is readily available in my country.  Importing may be difficult since hazmat shipments are quite expensive.  The laboratory reagents are available and purity assured. 

Will see if they can order 500mL bottles for me. Would be a lot cheaper. They happen to have the 2.5L in stock. 

 

OP, have you considered practicing on an easier movement? Like you I intend to work on some of my own Seiko watches, including one with a broken date mechanism, but before I venture to disassemble a 6r15 or even the 7s26 in my sacrificial Seiko 5, I think I need to practice on something like a TY3600, a Chinese clone of the ETA 6497 (originally a pocketwatch movement). Simple, no calendar, larger parts. The ETA technical documentation is excellent.  I am also considering  getting a 10 dollar Chinese mechanical movement and a pack of 40 hands to practice hand setting and removal.  JMT. 

[dadistic]

Sorry, didn't realize you weren't US, as you were quoting USD prices.

Other brands of cleaner are available, depending on what country you are in. 

If you are not cost constrained, it's worth searching them out, as they all will perform better than even lab quality reagents.  IPA is worth having, as it makes a great rinse. Just make sure you are getting anhydrous (no water). 

Various petroleum products will work, I'm not sure that lab quality is necessary. When I started out I used VM&P Naphtha,  which is available at hardware stores here, and is cheap.  Purity isn't as much of an issue for the cleaner, if you double rinse, which you should. If you use IPA then make sure you heat dry, or you may have problems with water condensation on the parts.

[JohnFrum]

41 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Purity isn't as much of an issue for the cleaner, if you double rinse, which you should. If you use IPA then make sure you heat dry, or you may have problems with water condensation on the parts.

So the ultrasound with cleaner, with parts rinsed in IPA twice then dried?

[Birbdad]

2 hours ago, JohnFrum said:

OP, have you considered practicing on an easier movement? Like you I intend to work on some of my own Seiko watches, including one with a broken date mechanism, but before I venture to disassemble a 6r15 or even the 7s26 in my sacrificial Seiko 5, I think I need to practice on something like a TY3600, a Chinese clone of the ETA 6497 (originally a pocketwatch movement). Simple, no calendar, larger parts. The ETA technical documentation is excellent.  I am also considering  getting a 10 dollar Chinese mechanical movement and a pack of 40 hands to practice hand setting and removal.  JMT. 

I got a 7s36b movement that literally doesn't tell time and the whole thing can be replaced for about 30 bucks worst case scenario. I really don't have anything to lose here.

Anyways, ordered the next round, jaxa opener, movement vice and my dumont #2's and my loupes will be here on friday and i'll try and get my runners regulated.

 

[spectre6000]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Don't  be so sure. I'm  a joiner and have sharpened knives and joinery tools for over 40 years. Its not as easy as it looks. A holder will cost you around 5 dollars if that.

Seconded. I'm a luthier and like to play with furniture scale joinery from time to time. I can sharpen a plane iron or marking knife like no one's business. Watchmaking screwdrivers get the jig. The smaller ones especially. Even with the jig, I threw my 0.5mm under the microscope recently and was shocked at how bad I'd managed the geometry even WITH the jig... Took me a few more guess and check attempts to get it good. With a jig AND a microscope AND a full array of DMT diamond plates carefully inlaid into a leather gasketed sapele case.

Something I realized I didn't see earlier is watch paper. Goes with the blower during cleaning with my regimen. Not sure whether/how it would work with the lighter fluid strategy. I do know that I wouldn't be able to clean cap jewels without it.

I use 2oz canning jars in lieu of the brits' little jars (I didn't realize that's where they were getting them... way better than those stupid plastic things). You don't say where you're located, but if you're near Denver, you're welcome to come grab some from me.

Edited July 20, 2022 by spectre6000

[dadistic]

49 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

So the ultrasound with cleaner, with parts rinsed in IPA twice then dried?

Clean, rinse, rinse, all in the ultrasonic cleaner.  Dry with a hairdryer or similar. 

This is the setup I put in the ultrasonic. I have more baskets, just showing for illustration purposes. 

I really need to get a real watch cleaning machine, this way works but it is slow.

[gbyleveldt]

3 hours ago, JohnFrum said:

Is the #7 winder also left handed?

Heh, the winders aren’t directional. Only the arbours and the handles are. It’s not immediately obvious at first glance.

[Gramham]

Hello @Birbdad,

I am also going through the same exercise.  It would be very interesting to compare notes.  

I myself have compiled a list of over 75 different items that are needed to just minimally equip a watchmaking work area from the ground up to perform simple servicing of uncomplicated and only "lightly broken" time pieces. 

My list takes the larger environment for granted and doesn't include things like the dimensions and finishing of the room, its ventilation, its heating/cooling, general area lighting, power service and supply, the size and height of the table or desk, the size and height of the stool or chair and any other major items of furniture that might come in handy (cabinets, shelves) or even major appliances (Smart TV, phone, tablet, laptop)!  

There is some duplication in the list I have prepared because I listed some alternatives, but not as much as you might think.  I'd love to get some feedback from the more experienced people here (everyone, compared to me!) about some of the more mysterious items I have listed - particularly non-Moebius lubricants and their potential uses - to see if I can trim this list down.

I live in Hong Kong, and I have had a sourcing company here for 20 years - so I will be sourcing most of the non-critical stuff out of China, once I have the list finalized.  For example, I have already purchased the Timegrapher (Wei Shi 1900) for what I think is a very good price, and I expect to receive it in a few days.  I think the manufacturer is only 2 hours away by car.

g.

----
 

[Birbdad]

2 minutes ago, Gramham said:

Hello @Birbdad,

I am also going through the same exercise.  It would be very interesting to compare notes.  

I myself have compiled a list of over 75 different items that are needed to just minimally equip a watchmaking work area from the ground up to perform simple servicing of uncomplicated and only "lightly broken" time pieces. 

My list takes the larger environment for granted and doesn't include things like the dimensions and finishing of the room, its ventilation, its heating/cooling, general area lighting, power service and supply, the size and height of the table or desk, the size and height of the stool or chair and any other major items of furniture that might come in handy (cabinets, shelves) or even major appliances (Smart TV, phone, tablet, laptop)!  

There is some duplication in the list I have prepared because I listed some alternatives, but not as much as you might think.  I'd love to get some feedback from the more experienced people here (everyone, compared to me!) about some of the more mysterious items I have listed - particularly non-Moebius lubricants and their potential uses - to see if I can trim this list down.

I live in Hong Kong, and I have had a sourcing company here for 20 years - so I will be sourcing most of the non-critical stuff out of China, once I have the list finalized.  For example, I have already purchased the Timegrapher (Wei Shi 1900) for what I think is a very good price, and I expect to receive it in a few days.  I think the manufacturer is only 2 hours away by car.

g.

----
 

It's pretty exhaustive! Seems more like the inventory list of a professional watchmaker than somebody just getting started. 

If you got a ton of cash to blow than by all means go for it but I do wonder about having like 4 tweezers, 4 case removal tools, pin vices, 3 movement holders etc.  IF what i've seen is correct the first full teardown and servicing can take quite a long time and have a bit of trial and error to it if not resulting in outright destruction of the balance wheel or whatever. 

I'm not getting in deeper than disassembly and lubrication, it involves pins or staking or bending metal, i'm out for now. 

For the most part every beginners guide i've seen says you can get away with like a single pair of type 2 tweezers and a cheap movement holder to start.  That's also a ton of lubricants.  

For me personally i'm starting with one movement i happen to own 3 watches with and when i branch out from there i'll start acquiring other things. 

The magnet is a good idea, i should probably get something like that.

[Birbdad]

Hey, what size do i need for the little pen shaped hand presser tools? I can't find anything about them but this.

 

Quote

The usual hole sizes for seiko autos is 150/90/20, meaning that you'd need tools with clearance holes just under 1.50mm, .90mm, and finally a solid one (no hole) for the second hand). These sizes would ensure you do not press the hand on below the top of it's respective post, though sometimes I've seen this as being necessary with some movement designs for the hour hand, in which case you'd also want one just a little bigger than 1.50mm.

Make sure you get ones with soft plastic tips, and also use a protective sheet such as watch paper or plastic baggie when pressing the hands on, to avoid marking them.

The horotecs come in 0.65, 1.10, .8, no hole, .5, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0

So do I need a 1.5mm, a .9 (There is no .9?) and a no hole? Or do I need need a .8 for the .9 hand and a 1.5 for the 1.5 hand?

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Gramham said:

Hello @Birbdad,

I am also going through the same exercise.  It would be very interesting to compare notes.  

I myself have compiled a list of over 75 different items that are needed to just minimally equip a watchmaking work area from the ground up to perform simple servicing of uncomplicated and only "lightly broken" time pieces. 

My list takes the larger environment for granted and doesn't include things like the dimensions and finishing of the room, its ventilation, its heating/cooling, general area lighting, power service and supply, the size and height of the table or desk, the size and height of the stool or chair and any other major items of furniture that might come in handy (cabinets, shelves) or even major appliances (Smart TV, phone, tablet, laptop)!  

There is some duplication in the list I have prepared because I listed some alternatives, but not as much as you might think.  I'd love to get some feedback from the more experienced people here (everyone, compared to me!) about some of the more mysterious items I have listed - particularly non-Moebius lubricants and their potential uses - to see if I can trim this list down.

I live in Hong Kong, and I have had a sourcing company here for 20 years - so I will be sourcing most of the non-critical stuff out of China, once I have the list finalized.  For example, I have already purchased the Timegrapher (Wei Shi 1900) for what I think is a very good price, and I expect to receive it in a few days.  I think the manufacturer is only 2 hours away by car.

g.

----
 

My word. Good list but lets not put anyone off here shall we. 

[spectre6000]

25 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Hey, what size do i need for the little pen shaped hand presser tools? I can't find anything about them but this.

The horotecs come in 0.65, 1.10, .8, no hole, .5, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0

So do I need a 1.5mm, a .9 (There is no .9?) and a no hole? Or do I need need a .8 for the .9 hand and a 1.5 for the 1.5 hand?

It's not that sensitive. You use the one that's just slightly larger than what you're pressing the hand onto. As long as you have a reasonable range of sizes in the right range, you're golden.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

It's not that sensitive. You use the one that's just slightly larger than what you're pressing the hand onto. As long as you have a reasonable range of sizes in the right range, you're golden.

Slightly larger. gotcha!

[watchweasol]

Hi for years I have used my tweezers to fit the hands and had no problems as long as you suqare them up and check clearance, this is somthing you should do even using the presser.

[GuyMontag]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:56 AM, Birbdad said:

Also f it, the screwdriver sharpner holder is cheap enough, i'll pick it up. It won't however work with my sharpening setup. What would be a good grit sandpaper to use to sharpen the screwdrivers?
 

I like the method shown in this video; it works great and is cheap, so a win/win:
 

 

You just get some 3M lapping film. I'm using:
100 Micron (120 Grit)
40 Micron (300 Grit)
30 Micron (600 Grit)

Works great and the sheets are only about $2-$5 per sheet and you can get 4 or 5 strips off of each sheet. This store sells the setup seen in the video, but they are sold out and it's easy and cheaper to make your own.

[Birbdad]

7 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I like the method shown in this video; it works great and is cheap, so a win/win:
 

 

You just get some 3M lapping film. I'm using:
100 Micron (120 Grit)
40 Micron (300 Grit)
30 Micron (600 Grit)

Works great and the sheets are only about $2-$5 per sheet and you can get 4 or 5 strips off of each sheet. This store sells the setup seen in the video, but they are sold out and it's easy and cheaper to make your own.

Funny you mention. I just added a glass lapping plane, multiple grits of finishing film and the little screwdriver jig to my amazon wishlist. I'll be ordering my screwdrivers at the end of the month.

 

 

8 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi for years I have used my tweezers to fit the hands and had no problems as long as you suqare them up and check clearance, this is somthing you should do even using the presser.

I'm assuming you just sorta put the tweezers sideway around the base  of the stem/base of the watch hands and slide it down?  That seems like it would scratch them pretty easily?

[watchweasol]

Hi  For years that was the only way used, untill the pressers became the flavour on the month . You can use brass tweezers for the job but if done with care there are no problems.

[JohnFrum]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:18 PM, Birbdad said:

I got a 7s36b movement that literally doesn't tell time and the whole thing can be replaced for about 30 bucks worst case scenario. I really don't have anything to lose here.

 

Good point. I may follow your example and just start with the 7s26. A new nh36 is cheaper than the Chinese 6497 clone and even if I break a few  things, I will have usable spare parts. 

[Birbdad]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:54 AM, watchweasol said:

Hi  For years that was the only way used, untill the pressers became the flavour on the month . You can use brass tweezers for the job but if done with care there are no problems.

Too late. I got 3 of the horotec pressers and a vomit inducingly expensive pair of burgeon hand lifters as people seemed to prefer them to the more shallow horotecs.

Also sorta kismet as this is one of the things i'm worried about, damaging the hands. I found a pretty much grand new junky michael kors fashion quartz watch on the ground by the dumpsters here the other day, not running but spotless, probably needs a new battery. Will be great to do a few practice runs on hand setting and removal.

By sunday tho should have just about everything i need for a full service other than lubricants, oilers, peg/pithwood and a few other odds and ends.

One question, do i need to dress my drivers and tweezers and hand lifters from the get out or do they come ready to go? For these prices they better come ready to go cuz I did not cheap out out any of those things.

 

13 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

Good point. I may follow your example and just start with the 7s26. A new nh36 is cheaper than the Chinese 6497 clone and even if I break a few  things, I will have usable spare parts. 

People have told me not to because it's too complex. I generally understand how it works, got great tutorials and step by steps, it doesn't seem like something not doable. THere's a few minefields however it looks like you gotta be really careful about. I'm extremely nervous to remove the balance assembly as there's a thing you gotta do to unhook it from the roller jewel which you can't even see before removing it and screwing this up will destroy your hairspring.

It's detailed pretty good here. http://www.clockmaker.com.au/diy_seiko_7s26/chapter9.html

Edited July 23, 2022 by Birbdad

[tomh207]

TBH I don’t think I have seen a tool yet that didn’t need some level of fettling, including bergeon and horotec

 

Tom

[Birbdad]

50 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

TBH I don’t think I have seen a tool yet that didn’t need some level of fettling, including bergeon and horotec

 

Tom

And further down the rabbit hole we go -_-
Oh well i got appropriate stones and a guide for the screwdrivers.