Can you guys kindly look over my final checklist of tools to get started on a budget before I blow my wad?

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 7/21/2022 at 4:40 PM, watchweasol said:

Hi for years I have used my tweezers to fit the hands and had no problems as long as you suqare them up and check clearance, this is somthing you should do even using the presser.

I watched an old time watchrepairer on an old 15 minute film called the watch repairer ( catchy title for a film).  He used tweezers to fit hands. In fact he used a pair of steel tweezers for just about everything.

[gbyleveldt]

Gonna be honest, working with plastic tipped tweezers on thin hands drove me a bit insane, they simply too blunt for picking these up. I’ve gone back to using normal steel tweezers lately. I’ll probably kick myself for that in future…

[JohnFrum]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:56 PM, watchweasol said:

pity the little glass jars are unavailable in the US ans they are realy handy in the U/s,  

Amazon sells them by the dozen, pack of thirty etc. People use them for wedding favors, packaging honey, dried herbs etc.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Gonna be honest, working with plastic tipped tweezers on thin hands drove me a bit insane, they simply too blunt for picking these up. I’ve gone back to using normal steel tweezers lately. I’ll probably kick myself for that in future…

I tried shaping some black plastic tweezer due to the tips being too large same reason. But the fibres were virtually impossible to get rid of. They couldnt be sanded at all even in the finest grade i had at 3000 grit. Back to steel tweezers for me also. I am contemplating making some wooden ones though.

[watchweasol]

Hi  I use only steel (Dumont) and Vetus tweezers and a pair of brass ones for all the work. Back in the days thats all there was ,I t worked then and works now, no need to change  you just need to be careful as always.

[dadistic]

I've been mostly using brass and bronze tweezers, much less chance of scratching. 

My hairspring tweezers are Dumont Dumoxel and Dumostar.

I have a pile of other various tweezers, mostly sitting around unused.

 

[Birbdad]

On 7/20/2022 at 5:27 PM, dadistic said:

Sorry, didn't realize you weren't US, as you were quoting USD prices.

Other brands of cleaner are available, depending on what country you are in. 

If you are not cost constrained, it's worth searching them out, as they all will perform better than even lab quality reagents.  IPA is worth having, as it makes a great rinse. Just make sure you are getting anhydrous (no water). 

Various petroleum products will work, I'm not sure that lab quality is necessary. When I started out I used VM&P Naphtha,  which is available at hardware stores here, and is cheap.  Purity isn't as much of an issue for the cleaner, if you double rinse, which you should. If you use IPA then make sure you heat dry, or you may have problems with water condensation on the parts.

Hey can you clarify to me what you meant by double rinse? What did you rinse with?
ALso what did you do for hair springs and shellacked parts for the naphtha. Do you do a very short ipa dunk or soak on them but not long enough to harm the shellac? It's the next thing i'm doing and i'm trying to gather other peoples procedures to find a good safe strategy to get this stuck hairspring uncontaminated with oil.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

can you clarify to me what you meant by double rinse? What did you rinse with?

Hiya Colin. Dadistic is just meaning 2 sets of rinses. The 1st rinse gets contaminated from the cleaned part with residue, the second rinse  improves the overall clean. Not everyone goes for the two, but eventually the 1st rinse jar will become too  contaminated to be effective hence two rinse jars. At that point the 2nd rinse jar becomes the 1st rinse jar and a new 2nd rinse jar is started. Then some filter the 1st rinse jar and so on and so forth. 

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hiya Colin. Dadistic is just meaning 2 sets of rinses. The 1st rinse gets contaminated from the cleaned part with residue, the second rinse  improves the overall clean. Not everyone goes for the two, but eventually the 1st rinse jar will become too  contaminated to be effective hence two rinse jars. At that point the 2nd rinse jar becomes the 1st rinse jar and a new 2nd rinse jar is started. Then some filter the 1st rinse jar and so on and so forth. 

Ok so this will be with the primary cleaning chemical then. In my case naphtha.  Or does this mean the rinse after the cleaning such as ipa or whatever stuff serious people use? I'm using naphtha followed by ipa. I did test my naphtha and there was a VERY faint outline of where it was left on the glass after i poured some out to let it evaporate. I am concerned about what sort of film that might leave behind on a hairspring or pallet fork but equally concerned with exposing shellac to even a very brief rinse in ipa after the naphtha.

I was just reading stuff from master watchmakers from the 40's and 50's and 60's talking about how they do a cleaning then shockingly rinse in boiling water with dish soap followed immediately a rinse in ipa to displace the water before fast drying with warm air.

Cleaning stuff is all over the place that's for damn sure....

[Neverenoughwatches]

53 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Ok so this will be with the primary cleaning chemical then. In my case naphtha.  Or does this mean the rinse after the cleaning such as ipa or whatever stuff serious people use? I'm using naphtha followed by ipa. I did test my naphtha and there was a VERY faint outline of where it was left on the glass after i poured some out to let it evaporate. I am concerned about what sort of film that might leave behind on a hairspring or pallet fork but equally concerned with exposing shellac to even a very brief rinse in ipa after the naphtha.

I was just reading stuff from master watchmakers from the 40's and 50's and 60's talking about how they do a cleaning then shockingly rinse in boiling water with dish soap followed immediately a rinse in ipa to displace the water before fast drying with warm air.

Cleaning stuff is all over the place that's for damn sure....

Haha. I did say there are many different ideas on the subject. Can you please reign in your questioning on it though, you wouldnt want to start a riot would you . That method also sounds reasonable to me, I'm guessing that even the pros wouldn't fully disagree with it. Like we've already discussed Colin the correct and thorough rinsing and drying is very important to fully disperse water. Its good to research Colin but you are starting to enter " paralysis by analysis " territory mate. 

[dadistic]

I follow the procedures recommended for watch cleaning machines. The first jar is the cleaning solution, in your case Naphtha. The second and third jars contain rinsing solution, in your case Alcohol. 

Some machines and some recommendations are for *four* jars, but I've never felt the need to do that. 

Good Luck!

[Birbdad]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha. I did say there are many different ideas on the subject. Can you please reign in your questioning on it though, you wouldnt want to start a riot would you . That method also sounds reasonable to me, I'm guessing that even the pros wouldn't fully disagree with it. Like we've already discussed Colin the correct and thorough rinsing and drying is very important to fully disperse water. Its good to research Colin but you are starting to enter " paralysis by analysis " territory mate. 

Yes me and you have discussed this, then I see another guy who said something a bit different and more specific and I want to hear his techniques as well! I post in another place also and often get the polar opposite answer from those people I get from from you or somebody else here. 

Considering I just saw a thread from another new guy who unfortunately destroyed the shellac on the hair spring of his project due to an improper ipa rinse, I want to get the specifics right on this before i do it.

Also i can assure you no paralysis, right now both my projects are waiting for things in the mail. My ipa is coming for the hairspring clean soon and I'm waiting for a pallet fork for the other. The only thing paralyzing me is the mail.

But you'll be happy to know I'm basically out of questions lol.

 

5 hours ago, dadistic said:

I follow the procedures recommended for watch cleaning machines. The first jar is the cleaning solution, in your case Naphtha. The second and third jars contain rinsing solution, in your case Alcohol. 

Some machines and some recommendations are for *four* jars, but I've never felt the need to do that. 

Good Luck!

Perfect! thanks so much!

Edited August 1, 2022 by Birbdad

[gbyleveldt]

Any chance you can get hexane? I’ve recently switched over to this as a rinsing agent and completely stopped using IPA. As Rich mentioned, this creates a riot on the forum, but I’ve had a bad experience with IPA and shellac (once was enough). Hexane evaporates even faster than IPA and does a better job to be honest.

[dadistic]

I know of people who use Hexane for cleaning various things. Should work. I bought a bottle of Trichloroethylene when I ran out of One Dip, and I use that for cleaning sometimes. It's still available in the states, but I would not recommend it, as it will seriously mess you up if you absorb it through your skin or breath it. Birth defects, cancer, etc. etc.  

With alcohol, short rinses with no heat should not be a problem for shellac, but I understand not wanting to take the chance.

Really, the correct answer is to use real watch cleaning solutions. Then there is no issue.

 

[gbyleveldt]

Yeah, we literally cannot get any of the fancy watch cleaning solutions in my country. So I have to settle for what they supply to jewellers. An ammonia solution for cleaning and hexane for rinsing. I must admit, this works really well. But as you said, apparently prolonged exposure to Perc isn’t recommended 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Considering I just saw a thread from another new guy who unfortunately destroyed the shellac on the hair spring of his project due to an improper ipa rinse, I want to get the specifics right on this before i do it.

That was more than likely the impulse jewel colin probably due to too long a soak from inexperience of a new guy. You will never get full agreement from everyone colin. If you want to go all out and get the best result you can then that answer will come from a pro. 

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

But you'll be happy to know I'm basically out of questions lol.

 

7 hours ago, dadistic said:

Haha ok mate. You’ll have plenty more to come

1 hour ago, dadistic said:

I know of people who use Hexane for cleaning various things. Should work. I bought a bottle of Trichloroethylene when I ran out of One Dip, and I use that for cleaning sometimes. It's still available in the states, but I would not recommend it, as it will seriously mess you up if you absorb it through your skin or breath it. Birth defects, cancer, etc. etc.  

 for shellac, but I understand not wanting to take the chance.

Really, the correct answer is to use real watch cleaning solutions. Then there is no issue.

 

That stuff was used as a dry cleaning agent also known as perc i think.  I have heard it mentioned here a few times. Very dangerous apparently. Bob on here Dad re. cleaning solutions but nearly always disregarded by beginners to save on initial layout. Although in reality if staying with the hobby worth the extra investment, and also saves on the worry. As soon as I've used my ipa i will be switching to a recommend rinse. The naptha has long since gone, but was ok to begin with. 

[Birbdad]

3 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Any chance you can get hexane? I’ve recently switched over to this as a rinsing agent and completely stopped using IPA. As Rich mentioned, this creates a riot on the forum, but I’ve had a bad experience with IPA and shellac (once was enough). Hexane evaporates even faster than IPA and does a better job to be honest.

I'm gonna look into it. Looks like hexane is pretty available here if you order it online. thanks for the tip! This hadn't really come up anywhere else but when i look up hexane and watch cleaning it is a thing quite a few people recommend.

And yeah i am really weary of ipa on things like balance assemblies and pallet forks as I've got some woodworking experience and know how quickly alcohol cuts through shellac. 

[Kalanag]

Hexane is the main component of petrol ether („Benzinum“) or lighter fluid. It‘s a low boiling aliphatic (linear) hydrocarbon.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

Hexane is the main component of petrol ether („Benzinum“) or lighter fluid. It‘s a low boiling aliphatic (linear) hydrocarbon.

Does that mean that its more of a cleaner than a rinse. ? Idid do a little research on it vey flammable but so is ipa.  Chemical make up 6 carbon atoms 14 hydrogen. The hydrogen prefers to mix with oxygen rather  than the  carbon its attached to

[Kalanag]

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Does that mean that its more of a cleaner than a rinse?

For sure! It will not dissolve water as IPA does.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Kalanag

[gbyleveldt]

2 hours ago, Kalanag said:

For sure! It will not dissolve water as IPA does.

Huh, hmmm. It's sold here as a rinse. Granted it's a local concoction for use in conjunction with their cleaner (which is ammonia based). No water in the process so it's water absorption properties isn't an issue.

I won't pretend to be an expert here so I can be totally wrong  It does work beautifully though and doesn't leave a residue as I've had with IPA

Edited August 2, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Kalanag said:

For sure! It will not dissolve water as IPA does.

Thanks Kalanag. Does that matter though if the cleaner is not water based. So the ipa is just used in this case because it evaporates quickly. I was wondering if the ideal cleaning for anything with shellac is a pure naptha that leaves no residue, 2 or 3 rinses in just this and then a quick blown air dry instead of the ipa. ?

9 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

Huh, hmmm. It's sold here as a rinse. Granted it's a local concoction for use in conjunction with their cleaner (which is ammonia based). No water in the process so it's water absorption properties isn't an issue.

I won't pretend to be an expert here so I can be totally wrong  It does work beautifully though and doesn't leave a residue as I've had with IPA

Eyup matey. How would just hexane be as the cleaner and a rinse do you think. It sounds like a very fast drying type of naptha. Reasearch is not easy on this stuff, there is so much that is petroleum based.

17 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Kalanag. Does that matter though if the cleaner is not water based. So the ipa is just used in this case because it evaporates quickly. I was wondering if the ideal cleaning for anything with shellac is a pure naptha that leaves no residue, 2 or 3 rinses in just this and then a quick blown air dry instead of the ipa. ?

Eyup matey. How would just hexane be as the cleaner and a rinse do you think. It sounds like a very fast drying type of naptha. Reasearch is not easy on this stuff, there is so much that is petroleum based.

Ok so a little research has brought me to this.  Naptha is a general name for a petroleum based solvent or petroleum ether. Different refineries produce their own naptha for specific uses. The differences between them are their molecular carbon content. Full range naptha is from 4 to 12 carbon atoms. The first refinery step is to produce a virgin naptha this comes from various sources and from this all other specific napthas and their uses are made. A 6 and under carbon atom naptha is classed as a light naptha these have much lower flash points and boiling points than heavy napthas. Hexane is 6 carbon and 14 hydrogen atoms so is classed as a light naptha with a low flash and boiling point, probably the reason it evaporates so quickly. Lighter fluid on the other hand is classed as a heavy napha which is the stuff most beginners use as its readily available, more often than not has a vm&p naptha content which stands for varnish makers and painters. So basically a paint thinner similar to mineral spirit but also as JDM often rightly says is designed to burn. Hexane is likely much more explosive than vm&p naptha. In other words a turbo charge for your lighter (please dont try it anyone) . Other things to note are that hexane is the least polarised of all solvents, whether this has anything to do with its evaporation speed perhaps any resisdent solvent or fuel scientists can answer that. 

[dadistic]

Dry cleaning fluid, or perc, is perchloroethylene. Not the same as the Trichloroethylene, which is nastier and which I think has been banned in the UK, EU, etc.

 

[watchweasol]

You are correct , Trichloroethylene  was primarily used in the dry cleaning industry and sold in small bottles under the name Beaucare a spot remover for cloth. Nasty stuff if not used porperly.  The EU put the boot in on that and banned it in the UK.. A pity because it was a good cleaning agent.

[Kalanag]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

…Ok so a little research has brought me to this.  Naptha is a general name for a petroleum based solvent or petroleum ether. Different refineries produce their own naptha for specific uses. The differences between them are their molecular carbon content…

Right! And the number of linked carbon atoms in the molecule defines the flash point which indicates how quickly the solvent evaporates. So you can find out whether the solvent you use is light, intermediate or heavy naphta by just observing the evaporation speed. The „Benzinum“ = „petroleum ether 40/60“ I use is a light naphta from mainly hexane (C6) with a flash point between 40 and 60°C and evaporates very quickly (much faster than IPA). No matter which naphta you use it has to be very clean to be useful for watch cleaning.

„ELMA WF Pro“ is 90% naphta C9-C12 according to their data sheet.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Kalanag