Jump to content

Impulse jewel is jumping over pallet fork.


Recommended Posts

Hi, I have been working on what has turned out to be a larger project than expected and have learned a lot.  But I am pondering what my next move should be.  Your advice would be very much appreciated.

The watch is a Charles Aernie manual wind ladies watch.

Movement: FHF (FONT) 120, 17 Jewel  Fontainemelon SA. plate size: 6.75 x 8 ligne,  Rate: 18,000 bph

Things I have repaired on this watch so far include:  Broken Setting Lever spring (and the broken piece was wedged in the wheel train), worn mainspring, broken balance staff, bent balance spring, loose balance spring collet, trued the balance wheel using calipers, balance wheel out of poise (needed to add a timing screw).  I cleaned, reassembled and lubricated the watch and it ran fine sitting on my bench overnight.  Went to adjust timing next day and it is all over the place, runs in pendant up/down/left/right but totally stops when it is dial up (not very convenient for the owner).  Timing is erratic, increasing and decreasing and sloppy beat. 

I went back and reviewed the watch further. The top set of jewels look ok, with the end cap not showing any pitting.  The obvious problem I knew beforehand is that the lower balance jewel has a chip in it and needs to be replaced.  (The picture was taken when I found the old pivot wedged in the oil well).    

The balance complete looks fine and does not appear to be rubbing against anything.  The balance spring is sitting flat and doesn't appear to be catching on anything.  There is a fair amount of endshake so I would like to tighten the balance up a bit.  The rest of the wheel train seem to have reasonable endshake except the center wheel which has no endshake.

The bottom of the balance looks ok, with the impulse jewel solidly in place with clean edges.  The impulse jewel height goes almost up to the safety roller table so I think it is high enough.  Brand new balance staff so pivots look fine.

The pallets appear to have enough drop on either side.  There doesn't appear to be much endshake in the pallet fork.  Need to clean pallet fork again to remove excess lube.

The pallet fork horn and guard pin seem to be ok and straight in both vertical and horizontal planes.  The banking pins look straight. Not entirely sure how to check if the guard pin is too long or short since it is very difficult to see inside the small enclosed area.  Mr De Carle suggest putting some jewelers rouge on the end of the guard pin and look for marking on the roller table later, so I might try that.

The last two watch images show the actual foul in action.  The first shows that the impulse jewel has jumped on top of one of the pallet horns.  The next image shows that as it passed to the wrong side of the pallet, it pushed the pallet fork back to the opposite banking pin.  At that point the watch will no long run.

 

My question is what steps can I take to fix so it doesn't stop when I turn it dial up?

1) replace the cracked bottom balance jewel.  I am a bit challenged identifying the correct jewel to use.  The movement tech sheet does not list the 120 calibre, but I believe it is the same as the 60 calibre since it measures 6 3/4 x 8 lignes.  Looking at the chart I believe to be "Bloc dessous" (101.20), but am not certain and do not have that jewel on hand.  

2) move the top jewels down to reduce endshake?  Assume I need to push both the endstone and the plate jewel in very slightly .

3) move the roller table down very slightly?  

4) increase the endshake on the center wheel.

Other recommndations and observations would be appreciated.

IMG_4205.jpg

IMG_4249.jpg

IMG_4312.jpg

balance-cock-jewels.jpeg

balance-plate-jewel.jpg

balance-complete-side.jpeg

PICA0046.jpg

escapement-drop-2.jpeg

escapement-drop-3.jpeg

pallet-fork.jpeg

impulse-jewel-jumping2.jpeg

impulse-jewel-overbanked.jpeg

jewel-sizes.jpg

incabloc-set.jpg

One more picture I should have included.  Side shot of the balance wheel complete showing the pivots, the height of the impulse jewel, and how it is sitting on the the staff.

Terry

 

PICA0044.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which staff did you use to replace the broken one? I see 3 options on balancestaffs.com.

 

The obvious fault I see is the roller table has been crushed. The safety roller should be in line with the guard pin, and below the roller jewel; it very well could be that in dial down it is sort of doing its job, but likely rubbing, but in dial up with the endshake on the balance it moves away far enough that there's zero safety action and the fork moves to overbanked condition. I would replace the roller table and see how it runs, if there are still issues related to the balance endshake then address that.

 

 

fhf120.jpg

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, TimeWerks said:

turned out to be a larger project than expected and have learned a lot.

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The obvious fault I see is the roller table has been crushed.

Good catch Nickelsilver.

TimeWerks, yes that's allot of work and great coverage of this project.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brilliant observation and response NickleSilver!  Thank you, and Shane too.

I had salvaged a roller table and did not notice it may have been crushed, or I very well may be the guilty party.  I have couple others I can compare and replace with.

I never knew about that balance staff website, but will remember it from now on!  I have a cache of new FF120 parts so didn't bother looking it up to find that there were other  potential sizes.  I measured the staff and it is 2.77 mm long.  So I guess I could try the 280 mm size to help reduce endshake  a bit and maybe not have to push the jewels in? 

balance-staffs-723.thumb.jpg.7280e3554016bb08671a89b119734faa.jpg

 

balance-staff-277.thumb.jpg.e2ee8b11d110e5590eb2c2b0a06624cf.jpg

 

measuring-balance.thumb.jpg.51e456b6105eb69a54d8b8773896ca63.jpg

 

I also still need to figure out the jewel to replace under the balance.  The pivot diameter appears to be .075mm.  And if i replace the that jewel pushing it in a little higher up on the plate, I assume in general I would need to push the associated endcap jewel on the separate piece up the same amount to match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, TimeWerks said:

if i replace the that jewel pushing it in a little higher up on the plate, I assume in general I would need to push the associated endcap jewel on the separate piece up the same amount to match.

Are you talking about the capstone for that jewel or are you talking about replacing or the jewels opposite the side from the one you're replacing?  The capstone on the jewel you're replacing follows its jewel.  I wouldn't worry about the jewels on the other side until you test fit that assembly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, TimeWerks said:

 I have couple others I can compare and replace with.

 How do you compare roller tables? 

Isn't a roller table specific to a caliber?  

 

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 How do you compare roller tables? 

Isn't a roller table specific to a caliber?  

 

and impulse jewels too   " specific"  .     

I be expecting lousy lift angle and louder cry of BE on tg. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I think I can relate to that! 😆 (Sorry, I just had to get it out!)

Yesssss

 

My work today :

Job for a friend (watchmaker) of a friend (also watchmaker), just need to replace roller jewel on an ancient 6x9"' omega. "Just"...

-new staff installed by friend, not staked properly, balance out of true, fix

-new staff 0.02mm oversize for roller table, turn and fix

-staff too long, reduce pivot length

-they kindly gave several roller jewels, all too small, find correct width and install, it's too long, grind to length, install (finally, it's fixed, right?)

-bend in 2nd coil of tiny overcoil hairspring, fix

get it ticking,  great, 1200 seconds Delta in verticals, ok amplitude is low but...

-poise balance by moving around numerous timing washers already in place on the abused screws, full service, replace mainspring (original was steel, coned, and set)

 

Amplitude up to 275 flat, Delta down to 40, that's it for this one. I'm keeping the roller jewels they sent, that's my tip. 😆

Edited by nickelsilver
  • Like 4
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 How do you compare roller tables? 

Isn't a roller table specific to a caliber?  

 

and impulse jewels too   " specific"  .     

I be expecting lousy lift angle and louder cry of BE on tg. 

Hi Nucejoe,  I have a couple spare roller tables for the FHF 120 that I can compare to see if I have one that is not squashed.  Basically pick the one that looks the best and give it a try to see if it behaves much better.

7 hours ago, Shane said:

Are you talking about the capstone for that jewel or are you talking about replacing or the jewels opposite the side from the one you're replacing?  The capstone on the jewel you're replacing follows its jewel.  I wouldn't worry about the jewels on the other side until you test fit that assembly.

Hi Shane, I am talking about the two jewels under the balance staff.  The one with the hole that the pivot passes through must be replaced.  The flat jewel below that one, is what I am referring to as a capstone (maybe I have the wrong term).   It is on a separate metal piece that is screwed into the bottom plate from below.  I will just replace the hole stone one that is chipped first before mucking with the other one behind it on the back.

end-stone.thumb.jpeg.11c3f1a89e0750822e5cfb0f302d4ab0.jpeg

I tracked down another roller table from another FHF 120 balance that I can salvage.  Quite the difference between the squashed one on the left and the good one on the right!  I will be checking this in the future. better-roller-table.thumb.jpeg.1a7467261a3e50ead753c568a95f24e8.jpeg

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, TimeWerks said:

Hi Shane, I am talking about the two jewels under the balance staff.  The one with the hole that the pivot passes through must be replaced.  The flat jewel below that one, is what I am referring to as a capstone (maybe I have the wrong term).   It is on a separate metal piece that is screwed into the bottom plate from below.  I will just replace the hole stone one that is chipped first before mucking with the other one behind it on the back.

Sorry, my bad.

I just got done shuffling jewels around within a different movement and I still have that job on the brain.

I guess this is why there are different overall lengths among balance staffs for the same movement.  Set up must be all in the part selection.  I would think the staff should be shorter than the assembled thickness of the main plate and balance cock (without the capstone on the cock), minus the depth of that pocket and acceptable allowance for end shake.

That looks like a significant difference between the two roller tables and what can be seen of the staff. 🤔

Shane

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As an update, I replaced the double roller and that has resolved the problem.  The watch no longer stops when it is in dial up (or any position).  Still need to deal with cracked lower balance jewel (find the right sized friction fit olive jewel),
increase endshake for the center wheel and replace the mainspring, but the major roadblock has been resolved.   Thank you very much for providing a fast solution to my dilemma!

By the way, I am now pressing the roller table in instead of trying to "gently" tap it with a hammer!  Way safer 🙂 

rollertable-pressing-in-place2.thumb.jpg.8e08b7a95dd2f845330485c0e235f667.jpg

 

rollertable-pressing-in-place.thumb.jpg.f5d1cae189166cb713d8f4962ff1a148.jpg

I can watch the gap under the roller table close as I gently press down on the handle.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/18/2022 at 11:56 PM, TimeWerks said:

Movement: FHF (FONT) 120, 17 Jewel  Fontainemelon SA. plate size: 6.75 x 8 ligne,  Rate: 18,000 bph

Thanks for bringing this movement back into the forefront of my mind.

I have about a thousand (if I'm exaggerating, it's not by much) of the FHF 60s, 120s, as well as other similarly sized and proportioned movements.  I think I will try and go through a few more of them.  Like the proverbial old guy giving away candy to the children, I have given watches to friendly women I interact with throughout my travels.

I've already given several away to customers at work or to the cashiers at the grocery store.  I do get some interesting looks.   Just try to visualize the whole thing without the creep factor.

Have a great day.

Shane

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/19/2022 at 6:13 PM, nickelsilver said:

Yesssss

 

My work today :

Job for a friend (watchmaker) of a friend (also watchmaker), just need to replace roller jewel on an ancient 6x9"' omega. "Just"...

-new staff installed by friend, not staked properly, balance out of true, fix

-new staff 0.02mm oversize for roller table, turn and fix

-staff too long, reduce pivot length

-they kindly gave several roller jewels, all too small, find correct width and install, it's too long, grind to length, install (finally, it's fixed, right?)

-bend in 2nd coil of tiny overcoil hairspring, fix

get it ticking,  great, 1200 seconds Delta in verticals, ok amplitude is low but...

-poise balance by moving around numerous timing washers already in place on the abused screws, full service, replace mainspring (original was steel, coned, and set)

 

Amplitude up to 275 flat, Delta down to 40, that's it for this one. I'm keeping the roller jewels they sent, that's my tip. 😆

Haha. Theres watchmakers and theres watchmakers. I get that in my game, "can you just come and have a look at ..... it only needs a little adjustment".  Yeah right little adjustment, "who the fook left you with this fooking mess" i ask.

57 minutes ago, Shane said:

, I have given watches to friendly women I interact with throughout my travels.

Haha. Dare i ask. You are my bloody hero mate. Ps where you at next week lol.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Thanks for your response Shane, but I still don't see how Master Nickelsilver recognized that roller table is crushed, to me it looks undamaged.

 Furthuremore he selects one of many roller tables he was provided, fitted it and fixed the watch, how did he select the correct one?   

Please don't tell him I said this, but  I think he is tired of explaining things and trying to teach  us. 

Regds 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Thanks for your response Shane, but I still don't see how Master Nickelsilver recognized that roller table is crushed, to me it looks undamaged.

It's all about patience, accuracy and observation. like Neverenoughwatch said above.  The bulge on the inside surface would never be done intentionally.  That detail/diameter would be made as a straight line because it's easier, cheeper and faster.  And... it's just to short to work.

Cheers

Edited by Shane
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • people be honest.... Swatch is evil for the watchmakers and repairers, BUT not everything in watches from Switzerland is from the Swatch-Group. As far as i know, Selitta got sacked by Swatch as a Movement-Assembler for them and they started to produce Movements in their own Name with slight Modifications. As far as i know, they sell Parts to the Market for their Movements. In most cases, if a ETA-Movement fails, it is a valid Option to replace it with a Selitta Movement, which i consider the Solution for this Mess with the Swatch-Group...... I have no Connection to anybody at Selitta, but being a Swiss-Guy, i still like to have Swiss-Made Watches, but not from the Swatch-Group.   ok ? regards, Ernst
    • Just one more greedy act by Swatch. They started a number of years ago here in the US..cutting off supplies to watchmakers that could build complications that many Swatch houses couldn't even touch. Old school masters who had gone through some of the most prestigious houses in the world. Otto Frei has some statements on their page about it. I tell all my customers to avoid new Swiss watches like the plague,..unless they just want an older one in their collection that still has some parts out on the market, or they have really deep pockets and don't mind waiting months and paying through the nose to get it back. Plenty of others to choose from..IE Seiko,..or other non-swiss brands Even a number of Chinese brands are catching up with the Swiss,..and I think that in time, their actions will be their downfall
    • Yes. If that's not what you are experiencing...start looking for something rubbing. A 1st guess is that one of the hands is rubbing against the hole in the center of the dial. Especially if you now have lower amplitude in face up/ face down positions.
    • Once a movement has the dial and hands put back and it is recased, would you expect the assembled watch to have the same amplitude as when the movement is in a movement holder and is without hands and dial? Thanks
    • C07641+ not sure what the "+" is for after the last digit.
×
×
  • Create New...