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What would make the balance wheel insanely slow on a 7s36b movement?


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14 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, my bad. So timegragher, dial up, wait 20 seconds before taking your measurement, dial down the same after you have made the movement, same for the rest. The watch needs to settle before you start thinking about recording that position figures.

 

I hope that makes it clearer, if not hit me up and I’ll do my best to help.

 

Tom

Nah i gotcha. I'll combine them into one image and post em because there is a bit of weird snow/irregularity in some positions and I have no idea if it's normal. It began, or got more noticable the moment i opened the case back and before i ever touched an etachron. It's a bit concerning and i'm wondering what you guys would make of it. I'll post later with the best photo i can take of the hairspring.

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15 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

'll combine them into one image and post em because there is a bit of weird snow/irregularity in some positions and I have no idea if it's normal. It began, or got more noticable the moment i opened the case back and before i ever touched an etachron. It's a bit concerning and i'm wondering what you guys would make of it. I'll post later with the best photo i can take of the hairspring.

Always best if you show us the timing machine results because we might see something you don't. Especially when things start looking not right.

59 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

So timegragher, dial up, wait 20 seconds before taking your measurement, dial down the same after you have made the movement, same for the rest. The watch needs to settle before you start thinking about recording that position figures.

Depending upon the manufacture some like Seiko may give you nothing others will give you settling time measuring time and even maybe in averaging time and sometimes the specify a machine. Then for diagnostic purposes I was like the look at the watch and six positions but typically the factories only look at the watch at a limited quantity of positions. It's not unless you're dealing with the chronometer grade watch will in a factory typically time at six positions.

Then I'm attaching a tech sheet which is not for your watch but comes from the OEM division of Seiko. Does a much nicer job of showing things like on page 2 timing specifications. I figured this was a close equivalent to give you a timing specification range between -20 and +40.For timing specifications are only looking at the watch and three positions. Because yes if you really look at the watch and all his possessions to try to figure out timekeeping it becomes really difficult is a lot simpler with less positions but not as good for diagnostic purposes. Then on page 14 the talk about the regulating system how to adjust it. Oh and the reason they don't give super detailed specifications in every single tech sheet is they assume you actually know how to service a watch. Tech sheets were not necessarily written assuming that a newbie would be working on their watches they assume that your watchmaker which is why they're not written in the best of fashion. They don't even cover everything is longtime stuff is covered in other documents this is quite common with the Swiss tech sheets that we separate lubrication guides for instance separate guides for all kinds of things Omega has actually an entirely separate guide for just regulating their watches so as not even mentioned in the service guides. In real life are lucky to get anything technical at all from the company's.

NH36_TG.pdf

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Ok, good relief that getting the thing isochronous (pretty sure i'm using that right) cleared up most of the snow i was seeing earlier, full wind, let it spin for an hour and here's the results. No f'ing idea what's going on in crown left. Would love to hear an explanation for that. I also took some shots of the hair spring in motion trying to capture it's compression and expansion positions best i could best i could. if people wanna see i can run it down and take pics of it when it's sitting still tomorrow. Sorry i don't have a decent macro camera.

 933641611_timegrapherreadings.thumb.jpg.580d2d7e3288f17f6dc83f53bd517ed8.jpg

874737809_speedracerhairspring.jpg.d040afca45bd9b23618c902cd4ae81bd.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

…No f'ing idea what's going on in crown left. Would love to hear an explanation for that…

 

The pallet fork seems not to feel fine in this position.

68B3E71B-EDD5-40CE-8947-2D39C443F5C6.thumb.jpeg.eb01a5898b493c022e9131ed54f46c47.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Kalanag said:

The pallet fork seems not to feel fine in this position.

68B3E71B-EDD5-40CE-8947-2D39C443F5C6.thumb.jpeg.eb01a5898b493c022e9131ed54f46c47.jpeg

Interesting....what on earth could have caused that? Is this purely an allignment issue? I haven't touched anything but some careful fine adjustments of the etachron levers. I wish i could say for sure i checked all the positions before i opened up the first time when i got my timegrapher but I don't recall whether i saw noise like that before i opened it up. I did however see an odd amount of noise right after i opened it up but before i touched anything but I now know it was not even close to a proper state of wind...

ALso is there another resource that shows  patterns like that and offers likely explanations for them? i've actually been looking for something like that to save for reference for the future. Thank you.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, dadistic said:

Here is something from Witschi that may help you a bit.

Witschi makes the fancy pro timing machines,  but the info in this course is generally applicable.

 

Witschi_Training_Course.pdf 4.5 MB · 1 download

That was actually really fascinating so thank you for that.  Doesn't really deal with the signal i'm getting but I learned a lot of great terminology from it and what the sounds the thing picking up are actually from specifically.  ALl this is so fascinating to me.

Intuitively I just can't really think of a good reason why one side of the pallet fork would not engage properly with every single tooth on the escape wheel but in only that one position.

 

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51 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

That was actually really fascinating so thank you for that.  Doesn't really deal with the signal i'm getting but I learned a lot of great terminology from it and what the sounds the thing picking up are actually from specifically.  ALl this is so fascinating to me.

Intuitively I just can't really think of a good reason why one side of the pallet fork would not engage properly with every single tooth on the escape wheel but in only that one position.

 

Was thinging about this earlier today. One side of the pallet skipping every other tooth to create that reading. Tbh i would have expected the escapement to halt. Maybe just not fully engaging. A worn escape wheel pivot ? How old is the watch ? Has it had much use ? In that position the escape wheel is drawn away from one of the pallet stones. The pallet stones not set correctly from the factory ?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Was thinging about this earlier today. One side of the pallet skipping every other tooth to create that reading. Tbh i would have expected the escapement to halt. Maybe just not fully engaging. A worn escape wheel pivot ? How old is the watch ? Has it had much use ? In that position the escape wheel is drawn away from one of the pallet stones. The pallet stones not set correctly from the factory ?

This is actually my newest watch, ive not even had it a year barely. The date code on it however shows it was made in 2018 so it sat god knows where being unused for years. I's not gotten a ton of wrist time so i'd be suprised if anything was worn out in it. I do know the 7s26c movement was infamous for being poorly lubricated from the factory sometimes so maybe that could factor in.

I just wish i could tell you for sure if i had checked that position on the timegrapher before i opened it up to regulate it. Could debris trapped between the case back and the case falling into the movement cause something like this? There was a LOT of it that got released when i loosend it but i was pretty careful to brush/blow it all away before i fully unscrewed the back.
 

One thing worth noting since you mentioned the escapement halting. Since the day i got this thing it is THE most sensitive watch i've ever owned to backhacking. when you're setting the time on it even THE tiniest inward and downward pressure on the crown can stop that seconds hand on accident and sometimes you have to tap the thing to get it started. I don't consciously do back hacking but on this thing it's really really easy to accidentally do it just in the normal course of setting the time.  Could be a factor?

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10 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I just wish i could tell you for sure if i had checked that position on the timegrapher before i opened it up to regulate it. Could debris trapped between the case back and the case falling into the movement cause something like this? There was a LOT of it that got released when i loosend it but i was pretty careful to brush/blow it all away before i fully unscrewed the back.

When you're learning watch repair you really should keep a journal of everything you do. Like a before and after with the timing machine condition of the watch when you received it. Had need to go back and look the CF oh yes it was doing that before kind of thing.

You need to get a brush and make sure your brush off everything on the back before you open the back. If that was a quartz watch should be having stopping issues because quartz watches don't like stuff falling into them. I doubt that's causing your problem

oh and then of course there is the casing issue it's a Seiko in the case that can always be interesting I bet you get a different signal perhaps it out of the case. If you do try to time the movement out of the case make sure you do it dial up that way you can see the hands you can see the dial it less likely for bad things to happen. Typically way timing a watch you time it dial down but typically would not want to have a dial on

 

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2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

This is actually my newest watch, ive not even had it a year barely. The date code on it however shows it was made in 2018 so it sat god knows where being unused for years. I's not gotten a ton of wrist time so i'd be suprised if anything was worn out in it. I do know the 7s26c movement was infamous for being poorly lubricated from the factory sometimes so maybe that could factor in.

I just wish i could tell you for sure if i had checked that position on the timegrapher before i opened it up to regulate it. Could debris trapped between the case back and the case falling into the movement cause something like this? There was a LOT of it that got released when i loosend it but i was pretty careful to brush/blow it all away before i fully unscrewed the back.
 

So unlikely that anything may be worn then. Always a good idea to take readings before starting any work. This can eliminate you as the culprit for issues. Good bit of experience you've just picked up Birb, this now reminds you to perform this procedure as a habit 👍. This and a demagnetise.  If I'm honest i do occasionally forget to do one or the other 🤷‍♂️.  Absolutely debris of any kind in the movement can cause all manner of issues.  A small delicate movement can be brought to a halt by a single fine hair or fibre if strategically placed. 😆 

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3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

When you're learning watch repair you really should keep a journal of everything you do. Like a before and after with the timing machine condition of the watch when you received it. Had need to go back and look the CF oh yes it was doing that before kind of thing.

You need to get a brush and make sure your brush off everything on the back before you open the back. If that was a quartz watch should be having stopping issues because quartz watches don't like stuff falling into them. I doubt that's causing your problem

oh and then of course there is the casing issue it's a Seiko in the case that can always be interesting I bet you get a different signal perhaps it out of the case. If you do try to time the movement out of the case make sure you do it dial up that way you can see the hands you can see the dial it less likely for bad things to happen. Typically way timing a watch you time it dial down but typically would not want to have a dial on

 

All great advice. I actually didn't own a timegrapher back then, i only received my timegrapher a few days ago. Also I actually washed the case back and cleaned it thoroughly with water before i opened it but that microscopic crack between the case and the back exploded with grime the moment i loosened it and yeah i did use a brush and blower to remove it before fully opening the back but it was so much it is possible that despite how careful i was something got in....somehow. my watch hand removing and setting tools should be here in the next few days, if i haven't resolved this I'll try decasing it and timing it that way.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So unlikely that anything may be worn then. Always a good idea to take readings before starting any work. This can eliminate you as the culprit for issues. Good bit of experience you've just picked up Birb, this now reminds you to perform this procedure as a habit 👍. This and a demagnetise.  If I'm honest i do occasionally forget to do one or the other 🤷‍♂️.  Absolutely debris of any kind in the movement can cause all manner of issues.  A small delicate movement can be brought to a halt by a single fine hair or fibre if strategically placed. 😆 

Yeah it was just the watch i was least concerned with as it was my best timekeeper and newest watch. Hindsight!

I had demagnetized it fairly recently but it's possible it picked something up. What's the verdict on whether a watch has to be non running before demagnetizing? it also seems to be one of those things that nobody agrees on.  If it's fine to demagnetize a running watch i'll do it right now and throw it on and see if anything changes.

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19 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

This is actually my newest watch, ive not even had it a year barely. The date code on it however shows it was made in 2018 so it sat god knows where being unused for years. I's not gotten a ton of wrist time so i'd be suprised if anything was worn out in it. I do know the 7s26c movement was infamous for being poorly lubricated from the factory sometimes so maybe that could factor in.

I just wish i could tell you for sure if i had checked that position on the timegrapher before i opened it up to regulate it. Could debris trapped between the case back and the case falling into the movement cause something like this? There was a LOT of it that got released when i loosend it but i was pretty careful to brush/blow it all away before i fully unscrewed the back.
 

One thing worth noting since you mentioned the escapement halting. Since the day i got this thing it is THE most sensitive watch i've ever owned to backhacking. when you're setting the time on it even THE tiniest inward and downward pressure on the crown can stop that seconds hand on accident and sometimes you have to tap the thing to get it started. I don't consciously do back hacking but on this thing it's really really easy to accidentally do it just in the normal course of setting the time.  Could be a factor?

It may be connected or just a coincidence, i'm not so experienced to give a definite answer for that. As a habit i never backwind a watch or a clock for that matter. I know that some watches or clocks just do not agree to it being done. Making sure that i dont just takes that potential problem away. Having to tap or shake the watch to start could be numerous things. A very poor beat error can be a common cause. Also a very slight locking up of the escapement on a particular tooth could be another. A pro could give you another few dozen reasons why. This is why watch repair can be so complex. Imagine being a doctor diagnosing hundreds of patients every week. The human body is probably the most complex entity on our planet. And we think watch repair can be difficult lol.

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5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It may be connected or just a coincidence, i'm not so experienced to give a definite answer for that. As a habit i never backwind a watch or a clock for that matter. I know that some watches or clocks just do not agree to it being done. Making sure that i dont just takes that potential problem away. Having to tap or shake the watch to start could be numerous things. A very poor beat error can be a common cause. Also a very slight locking up of the escapement on a particular tooth could be another. A pro could give you another few dozen reasons why. This is why watch repair can be so complex. Imagine being a doctor diagnosing hundreds of patients every week. The human body is probably the most complex entity on our planet. And we think watch repair can be difficult lol.

I don't do it either. On this particular watch though it's so sensitive to it just the mere act of turning the crown and having your fingers on it if there's even a TINY bit of pushing on it towards the 6 oclock position the watch back hacks and the second hand stops, it usually starts on it's own after this but sometimes you gotta tap it a couple times to get it to go.

But what about magnetization? Some say the watch has to be powered down fully to demagnetize and others say it doesn't matter if it's running or not. What do you guys think?

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6 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

All great advice. I actually didn't own a timegrapher back then, i only received my timegrapher a few days ago. Also I actually washed the case back and cleaned it thoroughly with water before i opened it but that microscopic crack between the case and the back exploded with grime the moment i loosened it and yeah i did use a brush and blower to remove it before fully opening the back but it was so much it is possible that despite how careful i was something got in....somehow. my watch hand removing and setting tools should be here in the next few days, if i haven't resolved this I'll try decasing it and timing it that way.

 

 

Yeah it was just the watch i was least concerned with as it was my best timekeeper and newest watch. Hindsight!

I had demagnetized it fairly recently but it's possible it picked something up. What's the verdict on whether a watch has to be non running before demagnetizing? it also seems to be one of those things that nobody agrees on.  If it's fine to demagnetize a running watch i'll do it right now and throw it on and see if anything changes.

I'm not exactly sure on that one. Personally i would say logically not running would be safer. The watch is never wound when i demagnetise. Although picking up an automatic to demag would probably start the movement up. Even non running i visualise the hairspring being yanked down 😵 haha

25 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

All great advice. I actually didn't own a timegrapher back then, i only received my timegrapher a few days ago. Also I actually washed the case back and cleaned it thoroughly with water before i opened it but that microscopic crack between the case and the back exploded with grime the moment i loosened it and yeah i did use a brush and blower to remove it before fully opening the back but it was so much it is possible that despite how careful i was something got in....somehow. my watch hand removing and setting tools should be here in the next few days, if i haven't resolved this I'll try decasing it and timing it that way.

 

 

Yeah it was just the watch i was least concerned with as it was my best timekeeper and newest watch. Hindsight!

I had demagnetized it fairly recently but it's possible it picked something up. What's the verdict on whether a watch has to be non running before demagnetizing? it also seems to be one of those things that nobody agrees on.  If it's fine to demagnetize a running watch i'll do it right now and throw it on and see if anything changes.

Ahh. I have been meaning to ask if it was cased. This could very well make a difference. Oh and Birb this throwing around of your watch onto the timegrapher. Possible that this may not increase your chances of it ever working any better or your timegrapher for that matter . 😉 can i ask how good your aim is and does it ever land in exactly the right place to begin timing it. 🤣

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I bet you get a different signal perhaps it out of the case. 

 

A little better. But not much better. Something is definitely up with that position.

decased1.thumb.jpg.c1b52f859ae42b7bd956a7cae0661d78.jpg

 

Quote

can i ask how good your aim is and does it ever land in exactly the right place to begin timing it.

My aim's pretty good. Sometimes the movement rimshots off the grabber and bounces around before it settles in but it gets there eventually! 🏀⌚🏆

Edited by Birbdad
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A

9 hours ago, Birbdad said:

A little better. But not much better. Something is definitely up with that position.

It would still be interesting if you could just adjust the beat a little bit maybe like 1 ms just because it be interesting to see

then how about an experiment you can rotate the microphone in steps but you can also rotated in a linear motion if you like. If you put the watch at Crown left and just start to gently rotate it how far in either direction can you go before the noisy line goes away? 

Then regarding timing machines I have an interesting video. The real purpose is to demonstrate how wonderful they are escapement is versus the lever escapement. For which we can care less about because were never going to see this escapement anyway.

At around one minute and seven seconds we get to the interesting part for a lever escapement. If you look at the witschi documentation you understand which parts the waveform the timing machine needs. There is a nice video showing where those sounds come from.

https://youtu.be/g5c5RK4WFV8

 

 

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5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

A

It would still be interesting if you could just adjust the beat a little bit maybe like 1 ms just because it be interesting to see

then how about an experiment you can rotate the microphone in steps but you can also rotated in a linear motion if you like. If you put the watch at Crown left and just start to gently rotate it how far in either direction can you go before the noisy line goes away? 

Then regarding timing machines I have an interesting video. The real purpose is to demonstrate how wonderful they are escapement is versus the lever escapement. For which we can care less about because were never going to see this escapement anyway.

At around one minute and seven seconds we get to the interesting part for a lever escapement. If you look at the witschi documentation you understand which parts the waveform the timing machine needs. There is a nice video showing where those sounds come from.

https://youtu.be/g5c5RK4WFV8

 

 

Haha, sounds like a fun experiment.  I'll do that! I'm pretty sure i can get it to a lot lower than 1ms.
Honestly though, i'm like 95% confident that whatever is going on there predates me opening that watch up, I just didn't have a timegrapher to see it in that one position and i didnt' bother to test it in that position when i finally got one. The mere fact that watch behaved strange from the get go with the weird back hacking sensitivity thing but it kept great time makes me think it might not be a big deal. I'm also pretty sure it didn't come in a real seiko box or with a real seiko cushion so who knows the history of that watch. I got it on ebay, it did have stickers, tags and a manual tho.

I'm gonna do your experiment and post pics but i think i'm going to regulate it again properly this time and get it as perfect as possible in one sorta happy medium position and then close it up and get it back on the wrist. but i'll post pics and data from the range before the weird singal starts in that position.

Also this may have been kismet. I opened up the back and there's a bit of rust that has actually partially destroyed the gasket in the back. If i hadn't caught that it might have been a disaster waiting to happen. 

that begs the question, what's a good way to spot remove rust from a watch case?


I also now have ALL the stuff i need to try and get the watch that got this thread started going again. This weekend i'll remove the balance cock and see if i can get that hairspring unstuck and i'll post the results.

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On 7/19/2022 at 6:54 AM, jdm said:

I am speaking from experience,

i'm going to go out on a limb here but I sense that you've worked on many many Seikos, JDM? good then because I'm going to be asking you lots of questions here soon. I've already gotten some answers off this thread. is it the later model seikos that don't recommend diassembling mainspring n barrel? what about say, 7002s and earlier? 

Seikos are mystery machines...

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4R36 is an updated 7S26 which is an updated 7002. They are very similar in design and you can see the evolution as the movements were improved over time. Seiko never wanted to have the barrels pulled apart on any of their movements. It just became more finicky since the 700x series. It’s debatable that you even need to open the barrels even on the older movements when doing a service, but many choose to do so (myself included). But there’s arguments for and against so to each his own

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11 hours ago, Birbdad said:

what's a good way to spot remove rust from a watch case?

A fiberglass brush pen works great, but you must do that with mov.t removed, away from where you work on mov.ts, then wash abundantly, dry with blown / hot hair, and inspect with an eyepiece for any left debris. 

1 hour ago, MechanicMike said:

 what about say, 7002s and earlier? 

If the parts list has the mainspring as a separate part then it's not a "sealed" barrel and can be serviced like any other. 

If only the barrel complete is listed then as you refit the mainspring with bare hands it may get distorted or contaminated. There is no readily available metal winder available for these. The GR generic mainspring that one can buy is stupidly expensive and doesn't give the performance of the original one, which does not requires braking grease thanks to its design and metallurgy.

These are the reasons why the wisest choice is to leave the barrel alone. 

Edited by jdm
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37 minutes ago, jdm said:

"sealed" barrel

how are sealed barrels and non sealed barrels recognized if at all?

disregard-I just read your post again. barrels listed as a separate part. got it.

 

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35 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

how are sealed barrels and non sealed barrels recognized if at all?

The newer barrels are "sealed" in the sense that the lid is a bit tighter fit, so no dirt can enter it. Plus, the watch around it is often a diver's, or very waterproof anyway. That removes the need to "clean" it. All is needed is to lubricate the arbor ends so that a little oil can get in between them, lid and barrel. Only after much (decades) continued use, when the mainspring will be genuinely bust, one will need a new barrel complete, and good luck finding one at a reasonable price. Cleaning and lubricating, braking grease or whatever else can't give back elasticity to a tired mainspring.

Edited by jdm
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1 hour ago, jdm said:

The newer barrels are "sealed" in the sense that the lid is a bit tighter fit, so no dirt can enter it. Plus, the watch around it is often a diver's, or very waterproof anyway. That removes the need to "clean" it. All is needed is to lubricate the arbor ends so that a little oil can get in between them, lid and barrel. Only after much (decades) continued use, when the mainspring will be genuinely bust, one will need a new barrel complete, and good luck finding one at a reasonable price. Cleaning and lubricating, braking grease or whatever else can't give back elasticity to a tired mainspring.

huh. this is very interesting and good to know. do other brands in the same price range, style etc etc practice this?

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