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What would make the balance wheel insanely slow on a 7s36b movement?


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Hi birbdad, you’ll probably end up like me (and I’m sure many others here) with many different caseback openers. I always start with the simplest solution first and work my way up to the big stuff, with glueing a nut or “stick” on as a last resort.

 

cheers

 

Tom

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58 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Trust me my guy, now is not the time to get back into it. This is the longest and worst ammo panic i've ever lived through. Primers and powder? = Unobtainium unless you want to pay the price gouger tax.

Also i made a thread in the tools forum with my final checklist. Any chance you could go take a gander?

Heh, ammo component prices has doubled since pre-covid. Lucky for me I buy in bulk and stocked up then already. I'll be ok for a while still but I shudder to think what it'll cost to replace that stock again

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1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Heh, ammo component prices has doubled since pre-covid. Lucky for me I buy in bulk and stocked up then already. I'll be ok for a while still but I shudder to think what it'll cost to replace that stock again

Hey friend. Wanna sell me some small pistol primers? 😅

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Hey, so i got everything i need to regulate my running movements and my hand levers, hand setters, bergeon scredrivers (including the seiko phillips and a 3mm bergeon for removal of the rotor) will be arriving soon. 

After regulating my healthy watches I'm gonna first attempt to do the dip cleaning of the balance spring assembly in naptha  after I remove the cap jewel and diashock assembly as i don't yet have the lubricant to relubricate it So i'd like to preserve the oil that's currently in it. 

What level of disassembly does the movement have to be in to remove the balance cock safely? Just looking at it it looks like all i have to do is remove the hands, dial, (Just so they don't get marred in the movement holder) and possibly the rotor. I'm only asking as all the tutorials out there are just full teardowns. The watch will be fully unwound when i attempt this.

If that's not a thing i should do just let me know and i can follow a regular disassembly tutorial up to the point where you would normally remove the balance cock.

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15 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Hey, so i got everything i need to regulate my running movements and my hand levers, hand setters, bergeon scredrivers (including the seiko phillips and a 3mm bergeon for removal of the rotor) will be arriving soon. 

After regulating my healthy watches I'm gonna first attempt to do the dip cleaning of the balance spring assembly in naptha  after I remove the cap jewel and diashock assembly as i don't yet have the lubricant to relubricate it So i'd like to preserve the oil that's currently in it. 

What level of disassembly does the movement have to be in to remove the balance cock safely? Just looking at it it looks like all i have to do is remove the hands, dial, (Just so they don't get marred in the movement holder) and possibly the rotor. I'm only asking as all the tutorials out there are just full teardowns. The watch will be fully unwound when i attempt this.

If that's not a thing i should do just let me know and i can follow a regular disassembly tutorial up to the point where you would normally remove the balance cock.

Yes Birb. Case back removed, release the watch stem by pressing the stem release button, this in effect dislocates the setting lever from its notch in the stem. Once the movement is out of the case, lay the watch dial up on your cushion. Take off the hands with a polythene bag over them to protect the dial. Next find the two screws that hold onto the dial feet. These are around the perimeter of the movement generally opposite each other, sometimes on Swiss a locking grip dial foot screw that half turns on the train side to release the feet. Once undone very gently pry off the dial. Once the dial is off then screw those tiny screws back in before you lose them.  You then need to remove the calendar works if you have any. Once all this is off you can place the movement in your adjustable holder. You dont especially need to power the mainspring down to take out just the balance. But if you are removing more than the balance then the powering down of the mainspring needs to be done along with taking off the cannon pinion on the dial side as this is attached to the centre wheel. 

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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Yes Birb. Case back removed, release the watch stem by pressing the stem release button, this in effect dislocates the setting lever from its notch in the stem. Once the movement is out of the case, lay the watch dial up on your cushion. Take off the hands with a polythene bag over them to protect the dial. Next find the two screws that hold onto the dial feet. These are around the perimeter of the movement generally opposite each other, sometimes on Swiss a locking grip dial foot screw that half turns on the train side to release the feet. Once undone very gently pry off the dial. Once the dial is off then screw those tiny screws back in before you lose them.  You then need to remove the calendar works if you have any. Once all this is off you can place the movement in your adjustable holder. You dont especially need to power the mainspring down to take out just the balance. But if you are removing more than the balance then the powering down of the mainspring needs to be done along with taking off the cannon pinion on the dial side as this is attached to the centre wheel. 

Really the calandar works have to come off before that? Also if i didn't mention it's a 7s36b with day date. 

It sorta looks like you can just remove the balance cock on it's own but i'll make sure to follow Mark's vid closely.

Also got my dumont #2's and my drivers are coming soon. I know about dressing the inside grip of the tweezers to give them a bit more grip but do i need to dress the point and the drivers and my hand levers before i use them the first time?

photo_2022-07-22_08-44-21.jpg

Edited by Birbdad
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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Really the calandar works have to come off before that? Also if i didn't mention it's a 7s36b with day date. 

It sorta looks like you can just remove the balance cock on it's own but i'll make sure to follow Mark's vid closely.

Also got my dumont #2's and my drivers are coming soon. I know about dressing the inside grip of the tweezers to give them a bit more grip but do i need to dress the point and the drivers and my hand levers before i use them the first time?

photo_2022-07-22_08-44-21.jpg

The balance is not attached to anything dial side. The removal of the calendar works was really just to protect the edge of the calendar disk from the movement holder. If the holder doesn't interfere with it then its fine to leave it in place as long as you are just removing the balance.

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3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

What level of disassembly does the movement have to be in to remove the balance cock safely?

 

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Really the calandar works have to come off before that? Also if i didn't mention it's a 7s36b with day date. 

It sorta looks like you can just remove the balance cock on it's own but

It is the problem with asking questions you get answers. So yes you have to strip everything off the watch so than the last thing you can take off is the balance bridge or? By the way would you please take a video of stripping everything except the balance bridge I really could use a laugh.

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The balance is not attached to anything dial side. The removal of the calendar works was really just to protect the edge of the calendar disk from the movement holder. If the holder doesn't interfere with it then its fine to leave it in place as long as you are just removing the balance.

Oh dear I didn't get my answer Completed fast enough and he clarified. I would ignore this you really have to strip the whole thing off

One of the problems with looking at YouTube videos are you might come to the conclusion that somebody actually knows what they're doing and that's the way things should be done. The problem is, is that really the way things have to be done? So for instance if you're stripping the watch for servicing you would take the hands and dial calendar off and Then go to work on the other side but you just want to take the balance out how much stripping you really need to do?

 

I have a video below not the exact watch but it's close enough and the video make my point much better than my words. Do you have to take the movement out of the case to get the balance out no but? When you look at the video it's easier to grab the balance the way he is doing from the side and it would be easier to do it out of the case. The problem with being out of the case is the dial and hands are now subject to bad things happening. Depending upon the movement holder you might damage the dial. If this force and markers on the dial there really easy to get knocked off. The second hand you want to stay away from that they bend up quite easily. If you're running the movement in the movement holder a lot of times a second handle catch on the movement holder the watch. Etc.

So yes you really could do it in the case but it is a little but more tricky to grab the balance wheel and more tricky to get back in again.

I would watch the whole video just because it's a good video. At five minutes and 23 seconds he removes the balance bridge screw. Then notice how he removes the balance and bridge simultaneously. It basically use the same procedure to put it back in you just have to make sure the roller jewel is on the right side of the fork that always becomes challenging for newbies.

https://youtu.be/tDa1ZZFwoBU

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Really the calandar works have to come off before that? Also if i didn't mention it's a 7s36b with day date. 

It sorta looks like you can just remove the balance cock on it's own but i'll make sure to follow Mark's vid closely.

Also got my dumont #2's and my drivers are coming soon. I know about dressing the inside grip of the tweezers to give them a bit more grip but do i need to dress the point and the drivers and my hand levers before i use them the first time?

photo_2022-07-22_08-44-21.jpg

Not really sure why you only want to remove the balance assembly? 🤔 

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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Not really sure why you only want to remove the balance assembly? 🤔 

Because that is the thing that is currently wrong with the watch. I want to clean the hairspring. Just try to get the thing running as they are very stuck together, probably from grease from the looks of it.

by balance assembly i mean the entire balance cock + everything attached to it.

EDIT
Yeah Mark just removes the day disk, the rotor and then the balance assembly once the dial and hands are off. After that i'll remove the capstone and try to get hairspring cleaned and unstuck.

 

Edited by Birbdad
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37 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Because that is the thing that is currently wrong with the watch. I want to clean the hairspring. Just try to get the thing running as they are very stuck together, probably from grease from the looks of it.

by balance assembly i mean the entire balance cock + everything attached to it.

EDIT
Yeah Mark just removes the day disk, the rotor and then the balance assembly once the dial and hands are off. After that i'll remove the capstone and try to get hairspring cleaned and unstuck.

 

You are best to remove whatever calendar works you have to be on the safe side. Cutting corners to save on time can and often results in accidental damage. It is your watch its really your call matey. 

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12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You are best to remove whatever calendar works you have to be on the safe side. Cutting corners to save on time can and often results in accidental damage. It is your watch its really your call matey. 

Watching his vid and looking in the case it looks like the plastic movement retainer ring would protect the calandar disk in the movement holder, i'll evaluate when i get the thing out. Appreciate the input

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Ok my first attempt to regulate a watch. This wasn't the non runner, this was my newest one, my seiko speedracer.
Started out at +8 s/d and 1.7 beat error. On wrist was running about +8 seconds a day.

6892378_photo_2022-07-24_05-34-32(2).thumb.jpg.fa705a71452691960630880c35945788.jpg

This took surprisingly long though. iv'e read a ton of writeups about regulating a watch so i knew trying to correct the beat error would throw off the s/d but i had no idea adjusting the regulator lever would also throw off the beat error. I just sorta kept moving stuff around till it feels like i got lucky. I had the beat error to .1 at one point but +33, i slowed down the watch and it threw the beat error up to 3ms.

I guess it's a balancing act? I assume there's a fast way to doing this balancing act so how do you guys deal with it? I know simply regulating a simple movement like this takes a skilled watch maker maybe 10 minutes.  I wanted to get that .3 beat error down to zero but i felt like i'd have been fiddling with it another hour at least and it would fluctuate between .2 and .3 so i figured good enough.

Does that signal look healthy? It seems....a bit snowier than before from just the moment i opened the case back and i can't imagine why that would be...

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12 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi After dismantling and cleaning etc any watch it is advisable to let it run for a while so it can "bed" in and give the lubrication time to get moving, after 24hrs or so then put it in the Tg and check the results.

Oh i haven't done that yet. All i did was regulate it. Somebody suggested i start small and i don't even have all my tools in yet to do a full service.

I did however just wind it up for a bit after not wearing it for days and throw it on the timegrapher.  I noticed with one of my other watches that wearing it for a day or two really makes it seem to run healthier, i guess cuz it gets the lubrication moving and stuff. I'm hoping that's it. I sure as hell didn't touch the hairspring. I did notice a TON of grime come out from inbetween the case and caseback, i blew it away as best i could before fully unscrewing it. I hope none of it fell into the movement.

Either way i'm wearing it now and i'll check it again in a few days after getting some wrist accuracy averages.

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3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Seiko recommended fully winding the watch, let it run for an hour then regulate with a minimum 20 seconds before taking the measurements in each position, iirc.

 

Tom

yeah, i wound it up some more and wore it another 5 hours or so on the wrist and now i'm getting totally different measurements.

Not sure what you mean by "regulate with a minimum of 20 seconds before taking the measurements in each position."? Could you explain that?

At the same time that doesn't explain why adjusting the regular lever is throwing off the beat error. Talking to another guy who says it means the hairspring is bent or off center. I sure as hell didn't touch it or bend it if that's true...

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20 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

At the same time that doesn't explain why adjusting the regular lever is throwing off the beat error.

The adjusting components are all separate their stacked together which means they can all move independent of each other except they're not free-floating stacked together there's pressure holding them all together. So usually if you move one the other one can move.

The Seiko tech sheet I'm looking at it doesn't show them broken down a separate components so I had to get one off another tech sheet to show you..

26 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Talking to another guy who says it means the hairspring is bent or off center.

Isn't this watch using a Etachron system and if so you shouldn't be bending the hairspring. But you should be using the proper procedure to make sure they hairspring is centered etc. unless a course somebody spent the hairspring or you bandits then yes you could be having a problem for that all things that you're supposed to checking for when you regulating.

regulating components separate.JPG

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1 minute ago, JohnR725 said:

The adjusting components are all separate their stacked together which means they can all move independent of each other except they're not free-floating stacked together there's pressure holding them all together. So usually if you move one the other one can move.

The Seiko tech sheet I'm looking at it doesn't show them broken down a separate components so I had to get one off another tech sheet to show you..

Isn't this watch using a Etachron system and if so you shouldn't be bending the hairspring. But you should be using the proper procedure to make sure they hairspring is centered etc. unless a course somebody spent the hairspring or you bandits then yes you could be having a problem for that all things that you're supposed to checking for when you regulating.

regulating components separate.JPG

yes they do use etachrons So given that the watch has never been opened till now and is fairly new what would make the hairspring off center? He told me a different procedure to move the etachrons that i'll try.

I was pushing them directly from the side occasionally from a VERY slight upward angle to clear the the grabber on the timegrapher and part of me wonders if that minute amount of downward pressure was pushing one lever into the other and causing both to move without me noticing since they're stacked on top of each other. I've seen watchmakers who do this for a living do it both ways but i'll try his way which is moving them from above with a pair of tweezers.  I"m gonna let it stay on the wrist a bit, fully wind it and try again tonight. He's also suggesting that since i'm measuring it cased that the acoustics of the sound in the case could be throwing off the beat error reading in the timegrapher. iv'e NEVER heard of this.

The 1.7ms beat error is high but both my 7s26 runners have about that same beat error from the factory.

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1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

So given that the watch has never been opened till now and is fairly new what would make the hairspring off center?

Just for my clarification how do you know it's off-center? In other words you visually can see that it's off-center as opposed to somebody thinks it may or may not be off-center?

Then just a reminder regarding factory regulation of your watch or even service centers. If you can find the specification for Seiko watch it usually is a relatively broad range that can be regulated to. They do not try to regulate zero they only get it within the specification range. I know some people at work in a Swatch group service center and that's their guidelines they given a plus minus range all lift is get in the window and they stop they do not regulate to zero.

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

He's also suggesting that since i'm measuring it cased that the acoustics of the sound in the case could be throwing off the beat error reading in the timegrapher. iv'e NEVER heard of this.

Yes this is actually very common with lots of watches. Lotta ties big and heavy cased watches are a problem for the timing machine. The Seiko watches probably because the plastic movement ring tend to be a problem. We've had watches at work where the Seiko looks like total crap on the timing machine taken out and put it in the holder directly without the case it looks perfect. The timing machine is trying to pick up the vibration through a very dense case with a plastic retaining ring it can be problematic at times. If you are timing with the watch in the case make sure the crown is facing out in the direction of the sensor touching the sensor preferably that we usually be the best but not IT just depends on the watch in the timing machine but yes timing in a case the right case can be a problem

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13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Just for my clarification how do you know it's off-center? In other words you visually can see that it's off-center as opposed to somebody thinks it may or may not be off-center?

Then just a reminder regarding factory regulation of your watch or even service centers. If you can find the specification for Seiko watch it usually is a relatively broad range that can be regulated to. They do not try to regulate zero they only get it within the specification range. I know some people at work in a Swatch group service center and that's their guidelines they given a plus minus range all lift is get in the window and they stop they do not regulate to zero.

Yes this is actually very common with lots of watches. Lotta ties big and heavy cased watches are a problem for the timing machine. The Seiko watches probably because the plastic movement ring tend to be a problem. We've had watches at work where the Seiko looks like total crap on the timing machine taken out and put it in the holder directly without the case it looks perfect. The timing machine is trying to pick up the vibration through a very dense case with a plastic retaining ring it can be problematic at times. If you are timing with the watch in the case make sure the crown is facing out in the direction of the sensor touching the sensor preferably that we usually be the best but not IT just depends on the watch in the timing machine but yes timing in a case the right case can be a problem

I have no idea if it's off center. I'm in multiple places and he suggested that was the likely cause of the regulator lever also throwing off the beat error. I'm getting multiple opinions to try to figure out what's real and what's not and what could be causing this on a new watch. And yeah i know what the factory specs are. I just wanted to see if i could regulate it and improve what was there, start with something small like reducing the beat error and getting it telling a bit better time.

Also that's really interesting about the acoustics. They're suggesting i just wind it fully, let it run for a day and give it another go and move the etachrons from above rather than from the side. 

Also where even IS the actual sensor on this thing? I dont' see one.

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4 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I have no idea if it's off center. I'm in multiple places and he suggested that was the likely cause of the regulator lever also throwing off the beat error.

It's the problem with asking questions and getting answers. Ideally the terminal curve that the regulator arm moves through has to be in a very exacting location otherwise you will move the hairspring off-center. But if you move the regulator arm on a system like this you can also move the beat adjustment which will cause the exact same effect. See you have to bill of visually look at your hairspring and figure out if it's centered or not. Use the question and answers for guidance but you still have to make the call in the field where get us a super good picture. Plus you are set the figure out what that system how to get the hairspring set up properly anyway

6 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

They're suggesting i just wind it fully, let it run for a day and give it another go

If you look at what  the companies typically recommend for regulation of a watch is you're supposed to wind it up and let it run for 15 minutes to one hour that's considered fully wound up. They don't actually specify whether it should run overnight or not. Usually when you putting a watch together you don't just put the balance wheel in and run right the timing machine. On the other hand I never wait overnight for timing usually just regulate and you going to run a timing overnight watching the hands anyway for several days so if there's a discrepancy in timing you can put it back on the timing machine.

Then there's a picture of the sensor in the Chinese machines. As you can see it's down inside we not going to see it out of harms way. Then it is trying to pick up the vibration not the audio of the watch which is why sometimes the crown is the best thing now facing out it's because it transmits the sound better sometimes at least that's what the factories usually recommend.

 

timing machine sensor.JPG

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21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It's the problem with asking questions and getting answers. Ideally the terminal curve that the regulator arm moves through has to be in a very exacting location otherwise you will move the hairspring off-center. But if you move the regulator arm on a system like this you can also move the beat adjustment which will cause the exact same effect. See you have to bill of visually look at your hairspring and figure out if it's centered or not. Use the question and answers for guidance but you still have to make the call in the field where get us a super good picture. Plus you are set the figure out what that system how to get the hairspring set up properly anyway

If you look at what  the companies typically recommend for regulation of a watch is you're supposed to wind it up and let it run for 15 minutes to one hour that's considered fully wound up. They don't actually specify whether it should run overnight or not. Usually when you putting a watch together you don't just put the balance wheel in and run right the timing machine. On the other hand I never wait overnight for timing usually just regulate and you going to run a timing overnight watching the hands anyway for several days so if there's a discrepancy in timing you can put it back on the timing machine.

Then there's a picture of the sensor in the Chinese machines. As you can see it's down inside we not going to see it out of harms way. Then it is trying to pick up the vibration not the audio of the watch which is why sometimes the crown is the best thing now facing out it's because it transmits the sound better sometimes at least that's what the factories usually recommend.

 

timing machine sensor.JPG

I can try and get you a picture but I assume it has to be not running otherwise the spring will just be a blur right?

if i have to power it down i'm gonna make one more go at it and i still have trouble i'll take it. Just lemme know whether it's gotta be unwound or not.

Another member here says sometimes the levers just interact with each other and moving one will move the other a slight bit which is sorta what i suspected. I didn't sleep at all so i'm gonna hang it up till tomorrow.

Also the manual for this thing is the most unintelligible attempt at english i've ever seen XD I missed the thing about the crown. Man does that give a clearer signal!  Thanks bud! 

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4 hours ago, Birbdad said:

yeah, i wound it up some more and wore it another 5 hours or so on the wrist and now i'm getting totally different measurements.

Not sure what you mean by "regulate with a minimum of 20 seconds before taking the measurements in each position."? Could you explain that?

At the same time that doesn't explain why adjusting the regular lever is throwing off the beat error. Talking to another guy who says it means the hairspring is bent or off center. I sure as hell didn't touch it or bend it if that's true...

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, my bad. So timegragher, dial up, wait 20 seconds before taking your measurement, dial down the same after you have made the movement, same for the rest. The watch needs to settle before you start thinking about recording that position figures.

 

I hope that makes it clearer, if not hit me up and I’ll do my best to help.

 

Tom

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