What would make the balance wheel insanely slow on a 7s36b movement?

[Birbdad]

5 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Ok, so the balance was stationary at that time? So the movement was completely stationary and unpowered? If that's the case then yes, that balance is stuffed. Thing is, these don't break by themselves. Either oil has run down from the end cap jewels down the balance staff or that movement is magnetised. Just guessing based on what I've seen so far

EDIT: Just realised it's 7S36 so no hacking

Ouch bud! That Covid is worse than a bad rum hangover. Some people just shrug it off but when the missus and I came down with it last year we were out of it for over a week. Strongs my man!

Heh, I haven't gotten around to the DIY cleaner yet hey. Lately I want to spend less time with new rabbit holes and just fix some watches man!

Sounds like something that is likely fixable then. I did run it through a demagnetizer and it doesn't move a compass.  Whether the demagnetizer i've used is crap or not is a question i can't answer but it's worked before haha.

let's say it is oil that gummed it all up, how do you clean a balance spring assembly without an ultrasonic cleaner? Does a short naptha soak/dip work

Edited July 18, 2022 by Birbdad

[JohnR725]

21 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

let's say it is oil that gummed it all up, how do you clean a balance spring assembly without an ultrasonic cleaner? Does a short naptha soak/dip work

We could assume its oil we could assume superglue don't know where the superglue would come from but I can assume that. Or why don't you look carefully at your hairspring look at it from the top how does it look to you. Look at it sideways is a flat is it flat and stuck together like glue or is it may be caught on something how does the hairspring look before proceeding with A possible solution See if you can see the problem for yourself.

They do make a special rinse or you could use naptha. If it really is sticky oil it shouldn't have to soak all day. Just be really careful because it's going be easy to distort the hairspring. It be easiest to just leave it attached the bridge. Hard to say easy to do if you know what you're doing you should flip it over when you put it in an other words the balance wheel is resting on the bridge not hanging from the bridge gazettes a recipe for disaster. Then when you take it out you can gently blow off the hairspring assembly still attached to the balance bridge when it's dry carefully flip it over put in the watch see how it runs oh and you just Removed the lubrication from the upper balance jewels so you do need the oil that. But you can still put it back in and instead run even without the lubrication.

 

[Birbdad]

16 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

We could assume its oil we could assume superglue don't know where the superglue would come from but I can assume that. Or why don't you look carefully at your hairspring look at it from the top how does it look to you. Look at it sideways is a flat is it flat and stuck together like glue or is it may be caught on something how does the hairspring look before proceeding with A possible solution See if you can see the problem for yourself.

They do make a special rinse or you could use naptha. If it really is sticky oil it shouldn't have to soak all day. Just be really careful because it's going be easy to distort the hairspring. It be easiest to just leave it attached the bridge. Hard to say easy to do if you know what you're doing you should flip it over when you put it in an other words the balance wheel is resting on the bridge not hanging from the bridge gazettes a recipe for disaster. Then when you take it out you can gently blow off the hairspring assembly still attached to the balance bridge when it's dry carefully flip it over put in the watch see how it runs oh and you just Removed the lubrication from the upper balance jewels so you do need the oil that. But you can still put it back in and instead run even without the lubrication.

 

Appareciate the help!  I'm not completely concerned about the possible chance that i'll destroy a balance spring assembly on a 30 dollar movement on a watch that currently can't tell time. Obviously i'll try not to destroy it but this is gonna be my first project and i'm gonna attempt a full service on it so i'm open to the fact that i might destroy the thing accidentally and i'm not too worried about it. I'd guess logic would dictate that it's far more likely oil has gummed up or transferred around a sealed unserviced 7 year old watch or it's magnetized (I think i eliminated this one.) than superglue got into it somehow. I'm just asking what is the most likely thing that would cause this and that will be the solution i attempt first. 

But yeah i've watched a bunch of teardown and service vids of 7s26 movements I'll definitely be careful when i try this. How long should i put it in the  naptha if it is oil and just in need of a service?  The other parts i'll just clean in it with a brush and let air dry.

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I'm just asking what is the most likely thing that would cause this and that will be the solution i attempt

From the watches that I've seen they hairspring gets tangled up in the regulator pins or the stud. Which is easy enough to tell if you just look at the balance wheel in the watch look at they hairspring if it's not nice and flat just give a little knowledge and see if it will come undone from the regulator pins and/or stud if that is where they are or does it look like they're glued together from oil or does it look like something else?

Then I never use naptha Someone else's good I have to tell you how fast it does its thing. If I was rinsing it off I'm using a hairspring rinse basically it would be carefully slide the whole thing in trying not the mangled of hairspring strangely enough I don't think ever done a balance complete on a bridge before and I don't think it really fit in my bottle sought F the slide it in the angle and gently rock the bottomless couple of times pull it out and that's literally how fast the rinse should take then I would lift the balance wheel up a little bit to stretch they hairspring and then blow dry it Otherwise the solution is all stuck to the hairspring and I thought it be better if the coils are separated otherwise attend the stick together from that.

Right now because you don't care about destroying the watch when we see if we can just fix the balance wheel and see what happens. Oh and if you break your balance wheel because the cost the watch it's an all new watch I don't think it's convenient to buy a balance complete for watch like this I get actually cost more than the whole watch.

[Birbdad]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

From the watches that I've seen they hairspring gets tangled up in the regulator pins or the stud. Which is easy enough to tell if you just look at the balance wheel in the watch look at they hairspring if it's not nice and flat just give a little knowledge and see if it will come undone from the regulator pins and/or stud if that is where they are or does it look like they're glued together from oil or does it look like something else?

Then I never use naptha Someone else's good I have to tell you how fast it does its thing. If I was rinsing it off I'm using a hairspring rinse basically it would be carefully slide the whole thing in trying not the mangled of hairspring strangely enough I don't think ever done a balance complete on a bridge before and I don't think it really fit in my bottle sought F the slide it in the angle and gently rock the bottomless couple of times pull it out and that's literally how fast the rinse should take then I would lift the balance wheel up a little bit to stretch they hairspring and then blow dry it Otherwise the solution is all stuck to the hairspring and I thought it be better if the coils are separated otherwise attend the stick together from that.

Right now because you don't care about destroying the watch when we see if we can just fix the balance wheel and see what happens. Oh and if you break your balance wheel because the cost the watch it's an all new watch I don't think it's convenient to buy a balance complete for watch like this I get actually cost more than the whole watch.

Considering i'm just starting and acquiring all the stuff i need and on a budget everything i've seen from people who do this for a living say naptha does the job on general watch movement part cleaning if you're on a budget, i assumed that applied to hairspring assemblies too, obviously i would have to remove the capstone and lube the entire thing. 

If i can avoid dropping the 60 dollars or so on a tiny bottle of hairspring cleaner and get away with naptha for now i'd like to. If hairspring dip is the only option then i guess i'll have to pick some up.

[Neverenoughwatches]

32 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Considering i'm just starting and acquiring all the stuff i need and on a budget everything i've seen from people who do this for a living say naptha does the job on general watch movement part cleaning if you're on a budget, i assumed that applied to hairspring assemblies too, obviously i would have to remove the capstone and lube the entire thing. 

If i can avoid dropping the 60 dollars or so on a tiny bottle of hairspring cleaner and get away with naptha for now i'd like to. If hairspring dip is the only option then i guess i'll have to pick some up.

Naptha will be ok birb. Its an ok start point for a beginner.  If you carry futher on into repairing you will want to upgrade that though at some point. 

[Shane]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

The other parts i'll just clean in it with a brush and let air dry.

I commend you for considering any of this and I believe everyone needs to start somewhere.  But you are intending to fully disassemble the movement first?

As far as naptha goes, I've never used it but anything that dissolves oil and evaporates quickly and completely should work just fine.  I use acetone because I have it on hand for other reasons.  Just keep in mind (not sure if this is true for Seiko or not) or even using naptha for that matter) the roller jewel and pallet stones are mostly held in with shellac.  Shellac will soften and dissolve in many "thinners" given half a chance.  But if you limit the time exposed and allow the thinner to completely evaporate from the shellacked parts, the risk is minimal and the shellac should stiffen up completely.

Good luck.

Shane

19 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would have agreed with you here Gary, as in any mechanical device keeping it running would be a fine balance of it not wearing out from overuse and not seizing up from underuse.

The whole idea about keeping a watch running and the oil will stay fresh longer.  I have heard this from many other sources but don't understand why or how.  What about oil in motion keeps any volatiles from leaving or what's left from oxidizing?  The size, volume, temperature and surface area of the oil, as well as the atmosphere surrounding it all remain unchanged.  The only thing I can imagine is a small one amount of gravitational stratification but shouldn't that be reemulsified upon start up?  And I have not heard of anyone shaking watch oil before application.

Thoughts?

Shane

[Birbdad]

2 hours ago, Shane said:

I commend you for considering any of this and I believe everyone needs to start somewhere.  But you are intending to fully disassemble the movement first?

As far as naptha goes, I've never used it but anything that dissolves oil and evaporates quickly and completely should work just fine.  I use acetone because I have it on hand for other reasons.  Just keep in mind (not sure if this is true for Seiko or not) or even using naptha for that matter) the roller jewel and pallet stones are mostly held in with shellac.  Shellac will soften and dissolve in many "thinners" given half a chance.  But if you limit the time exposed and allow the thinner to completely evaporate from the shellacked parts, the risk is minimal and the shellac should stiffen up completely.

Good luck.

Shane

The whole idea about keeping a watch running and the oil will stay fresh longer.  I have heard this from many other sources but don't understand why or how.  What about oil in motion keeps any volatiles from leaving or what's left from oxidizing?  The size, volume, temperature and surface area of the oil, as well as the atmosphere surrounding it all remain unchanged.  The only thing I can imagine is a small one amount of gravitational stratification but shouldn't that be reemulsified upon start up?  And I have not heard of anyone shaking watch oil before application.

Thoughts?

Shane

Yes i will absolutely disassemble it first this barely runner is going to my my first project.

I'm gonna amass the tools i need, follow the site owner's and a few others great vids on 7s26 servicing and teardown and try and do a full service on the thing. Basically recreate their steps only instead of using an ultrasonic machine just clean the parts by hand in naptha.  I do intend to upgrade that at some point but I don't want to drop 1500 dollars on gear right off the bat to service a few cheap watches haha.  Gonna probably spend most of my money on a few good bergeon screwdrivers to start with, good tweezers, proper lubricants, and cut costs everywhere i can and slowly just replace things as I'm ready over time.

Also here is the timegrapher results.  Big yikes at that amplitude!

Also a few times when i was winding it up i noticed it would stop running entirely for a brief second.  Did not expect that.

Also shouldn't a healthy amplitude for a 7s26 be about 270ish?  My newest watch, a seiko speedracer with a 7s26c has an amplitude of 265 dial up but in all other positions it's about 210 to 230.  I've only had this thing for about 10 months and only worn it like twice.

This is the timegrapher from my speedracer. Not great beat error and pretty poor amplitude but the thing runs on wrist about +7 seconds a day.  Are that beat error and amplitude something i should expect with this movement?

[gbyleveldt]

Ouch, yeah suspicion confirmed bud. Before stripping the complete movement I’d only remove the balance cock and sort it out on its own. Try and get to the bottom of the issue. If that is sorted out and the watch runs fine again, then you can possibly progress to stripping it all again to service.

The reason I suggest the above is because the 7S36 is far from a beginner friendly movement. Not to say it’s overly complicated, but they not basic. Don’t make the same mistakes I did by picking these as a first project. It can easily kill whatever potential passion you might grow for the hobby.

There’s many videos about servicing these on YT; in fact I’ve posted an SKX one myself. It only becomes easy with practice and practicing on something less complex is the best way to build confidence. I would strongly suggest buying an ST36 movement (they real cheap) and build your chops with that before tackling that 7S36.

All that being said, it’s up to you. Only you know you and your appetite for pain ;D

EDIT: I know you said you demagnetised the movement, but to me that still seems like the most likely culprit. Either that, or the balance spring has somehow overbanked or, as I said before, the hairspring somehow got contaminated with oil.

Edited July 19, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Ouch, yeah suspicion confirmed bud. Before stripping the complete movement I’d only remove the balance cock and sort it out on its own. Try and get to the bottom of the issue. If that is sorted out and the watch runs fine again, then you can possibly progress to stripping it all again to service.

The reason I suggest the above is because the 7S36 is far from a beginner friendly movement. Not to say it’s overly complicated, but they not basic. Don’t make the same mistakes I did by picking these as a first project. It can easily kill whatever potential passion you might grow for the hobby.

There’s many videos about servicing these on YT; in fact I’ve posted an SKX one myself. It only becomes easy with practice and practicing on something less complex is the best way to build confidence. I would strongly suggest buying an ST36 movement (they real cheap) and build your chops with that before tackling that 7S36.

All that being said, it’s up to you. Only you know you and your appetite for pain ;D

EDIT: I know you said you demagnetised the movement, but to me that still seems like the most likely culprit. Either that, or the balance spring has somehow overbanked or, as I said before, the hairspring somehow got contaminated with oil.

What specifically was the things that gave you a lot of issues? I imagine much of it is related to simply being able to manipulate such small things with tweezers, the rest of it doesn't really look much more difficult than putting together or taking apart a thing of legos haha, maybe i'm being naive but theres just great step by step stuff in video form to follow from this site owner and many others. the things that look the most difficult are removing the diashocks and cap jewels, removing the balance cock and getting the train bridge back on and lined up properly. I've watched these vids a bunch of times, i've studied the seiko tech sheet on the thing and have a very good understanding of how it all works and how and where to lubricate it.

Also i have a pretty high tolerance for pain, i generally just dive into complex things and bang my head against them till i figure it out. My day job is an artist so i have quite a steady hand and good attention to detail. If i fail I fail and will try again. This is an easy and cheap movement to find if i wreck a part or destroy the whole thing i'm really not worried.

Since you struggled with this as a newbie outside of "Don't do it" what is some specific advice you might have as a warning before trying this to help me avoid catastrophe? Things i should be extra careful about that might be pit falls.

[watchweasol]

Hi  There are substances used for cleaning Balance springs "One Dip", Essence of Renata", Although I believe One Dip is discontinued.  One could use the likes of IPA but do not soak  it for any lenght of time. The same goes for lighter fuel, benzine, naptha etc as some fluids react with the shellac used to afix the inpulse jewel. Other members will do doubt chip in with their favourite cleaner.

It is best to remove the balance from the balance cock and or the balance spring depending on skill levels as re fitting the spring to the balance requires knowledge of setting up and setting the beat.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

What specifically was the things that gave you a lot of issues? I imagine much of it is related to simply being able to manipulate such small things with tweezers, the rest of it doesn't really look much more difficult than putting together or taking apart a thing of legos haha, maybe i'm being naive but theres just great step by step stuff in video form to follow from this site owner and many others. the things that look the most difficult are removing the diashocks and cap jewels, removing the balance cock and getting the train bridge back on and lined up properly. I've watched these vids a bunch of times, i've studied the seiko tech sheet on the thing and have a very good understanding of how it all works and how and where to lubricate it.

Also i have a pretty high tolerance for pain, i generally just dive into complex things and bang my head against them till i figure it out. My day job is an artist so i have quite a steady hand and good attention to detail. If i fail I fail and will try again. This is an easy and cheap movement to find if i wreck a part or destroy the whole thing i'm really not worried.

Since you struggled with this as a newbie outside of "Don't do it" what is some specific advice you might have as a warning before trying this to help me avoid catastrophe? Things i should be extra careful about that might be pit falls.

Be extra careful about everything . Especially me today as I'm in one of those funny moods. Returned energy, hyper and not much to do waiting to go back to work moods. Lol . Seriously though, never try to force something that doesnt want to move. There are so many delicate parts that are easily broken. If its tight then find a way to ease it out or off.  Study through books not just by watching videos as theses often make watch repair look far too easy and quick. There is a tremendous amount of information to cram into even a one hour video. Often more than a days worth of time compressed and edited into just one hour or less.  Get yourself some good secondhand books to read through. Personally i think the oldtime expert watchmakers like Fried, de carle, and Daniels are a good choice. Not so much the indepth advanced  which is way ahead of anyone starting out. But they have wrote some less advanced for beginning type literature. If you are an artist then yes your steady hand will be a great asset, unless you are referring to a different type of artist involving alcohol in which case watch repair is definitely not for you . As regards to you initial statement, yes tweezer, screwdriver and everything else manipulation is something you need to master to be good. And yes you are being very naive thinking it doesnt look much more difficult than lego construction. Thats the problem with watching videos. Being here on the forum is far better , you can ask politely and receive genuine  information direct from a fantastic bunch of guys that are willing to help.

[Shane]

42 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Being here on the forum is far better , you can ask politely and receive genuine  information direct from a fantastic bunch of guys that are willing to help.

5 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Before stripping the complete movement I’d only remove the balance cock and sort it out on its own. Try and get to the bottom of the issue.

You said you wanted some advice.
The two above are both pretty solid.

Ask questions politely and graciously listen to your responses.  If you can do that almost anyone will be willing to help you.

The second I feel is key here.  In trouble shooting, the fewer variables that you introduce, the easier it will be to see if you have found the root cause, understand the problem and effect real improvement.  The luring curve is steep.  Make the most of your efforts.

The rest of your approach towards watch repair seams pretty sane.

At the end of the day, it's all just advice and you will be alone with your watch.

Good luck.

Shane

[jdm]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

It is best to remove the balance from the balance cock and or the balance spring depending on skill levels as re fitting the spring to the balance requires knowledge of setting up and setting the beat.

Removing an Etachron stud (like the OP has) from the balance cock is easy, but refitting it without any damage it's not.

Seiko balances and hairsprings are not meant to be ever separated from the staff. They are really one single assembly, balanced at the factory. Of course an experienced watchmaker might be able to do that, and more.

Even the act of removing and refitting in a 100% safe manner a Seiko balance is not immediate for a beginner. The hairspring is very delicate, it won't resist any mishandling, mistake or prolonged dangling without being deformed. At which point the person will have another, possibly bigger problem than the original one.

In these and all other tasks it's not an overpriced Bergeon driver that does a good job, it's your trained hand, eye and brain. Then any well dressed driver and tweezers will do just fine.

If a beginner gives any value or importance of preserving his own semi-working mov.t he should learn and practice first on something else, bigger and of no value. I am speaking from experience, do not want to curb enthusiasm but simply setting expectations right.

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by jdm

[Shane]

7 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Are that beat error and amplitude something i should expect with this movement?

Not sure about the amplitude, I'm not a Seiko guy (I have several just not a Timegrapher) but the best error is adjustable through one way or another.  I was thinking about this and I would expect that a 1.5ms error would mean more with a movement running at 21,600 than at 18,000, at least as a percentage of each beat.  A .9% error as opposed to a .75% error (if my math is correct).

Shane

[jdm]

3 hours ago, Shane said:

the best error is adjustable through one way or another.

On a moveable arm mov.t like any Seiko and modern ones the beat error is always corrected there, not on the collet, unless the latter has been installed wrongly.

3 hours ago, Shane said:

would expect that a 1.5ms error

On an healthy Seiko it's very easy to bring it to 0.5ms BE or less. Doing better than that, just like correcting a deviation of 5 secs/day rate requires a bit of a steady hand, and may not even be necessary if the timekeeping the wrist are good.

Edited July 19, 2022 by jdm

[Birbdad]

19 minutes ago, jdm said:

Removing an Etachron stud (like the OP has) from the balance cock is easy, but refitting it without any damage it's not.

Seiko balances and hairsprings are not meant to be ever separated from the staff. They are really one single assembly, balanced at the factory. Of course an experienced watchmaker might be able to do that, and more.

Even the act of removing and refitting in a 100% safe manner a Seiko balance is not immediate for a beginner. The hairspring is very delicate, it won't resist any mishandling, mistake or prolonged dangling without being deformed. At which point the person will have another, possibly bigger problem than the original one.

In these and all other tasks it's not an overpriced Bergeon driver that does a good job, it's your trained hand, eye and brain. Then any well dressed driver and tweezers will do just fine.

If a beginner gives any value or importance of preserving his own semi-working mov.t he should learn and practice first on something else, bigger and of no value. I am speaking from experience, do not want to curb enthusiasm but simply setting expectations right.

 

I have watched about a dozen teardowns of 7s26 movements and I don't think i've seen anybody remove the balance from the balance cock, in fact all of them i think including the owner of this site iirc throw that bridge with the balance cock and whole balance assembly attached to it into the ultrasonic cleaner iirc. I have zero intention of attempting actual disassembling and removal of the hairspring and balance wheel.

I have a feeling i've got a decent chance of doing this if i take my time and i'm careful but removing anything from the balance cock was not something i had any plan on doing as that's definitely beyond my paygrade.  

As for preserving this movement, i have a watch that doesn't tell time that i'm rather fond of that it's not even remotely worth the cost of a professional service not that i can find anybody interested in professionally servicing it in this state anyways. THere's 2 watchmakers about 4 hours drive away, one according to reviews has screwed up about every job he's been given and the other just said he'd chuck a new movement in it which I definitely know i can do.  I can buy a new movement and drop it in the case easy enough if worse comes to worst. I literally have nothing to lose with this but about 35 bucks for a new movement at which point i'd probably just swap out the balance cock and assembly (The balance cock is just the bridge the wheel/hairspring/shock setting is on right?) on that for this one to get it running again and save it for parts for the future.

 

 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Study through books not just by watching videos as theses often make watch repair look far too easy and quick. There is a tremendous amount of information to cram into even a one hour video. Often more than a days worth of time compressed and edited into just one hour or less.  Get yourself some good secondhand books to read through. Personally i think the oldtime expert watchmakers like Fried, de carle, and Daniels are a good choice. 

I've been researching this for awhile beyond watching a few youtube videos, trust me. I just mention the videos because they're great step by steps. I have a watch that doesn't tell time with a movement that doesn't work that can be bought new for about 35 bucks. In the future i plan to research this more as i attempt more difficult things or hit a brick wall but I'm just not too worried about destroying this movement that can't tell time. I'm gonna try, if i fail, it's ok.

I appreciate the help and concern, i really do but I know i will enjoy tinkering with this thing whatever the outcome.

1 minute ago, jdm said:

On a moveable arm mov.t like any Seiko and modern mov.t,mthe brat error is always corrected at the stud.

 

It a Seiko mov.t is healthy it's very easy to bring it to 0.5ms BE or less. Doing better than that, just like correcting a deviation of 5 secs/ day secs/day rate requires a bit of a steady hand, and may not even be necessary if the performance on the wrist are good.

 

What about the amplitude? I'm oddly not finding a lot of great info about what i should expect.

In all but dial up position both my other 7s26's, one of which definitely needs a service, the other is not even a year old the amplitude is in the lower 200's in all but dial up position. 

Beat error on both is probably higher than it needs to be. Is there some rule to correcting beat error by moving the lever in one direction or the other or is it sortof a "Nudge it in one direction on the timegrapher and see what happens" situation?

[jdm]

1 minute ago, Birbdad said:

(The balance cock is just the bridge the wheel/hairspring/shock setting is on right?)

Traditionally in English watchmaking if the plate that holds a wheel rests on two or more sides it's called a bridge, if overhangs from one support only it's called a cock.

 

1 minute ago, Birbdad said:

a movement that doesn't work that can be bought new for about 35 bucks. 

That is good but I think that a watch enthusiast should have respect for any piece of mechanical precision, and approach the learning of its repair according to certain steps and principles, not taking chances lightly.

[Shane]

6 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I have a watch that doesn't tell time with a movement that doesn't work that can be bought new for about 35 bucks. In the future i plan to research this more as i attempt more difficult things or hit a brick wall but I'm just not too worried about destroying this movement that can't tell time. I'm gonna try, if i fail, it's ok.

I don't think that most of the concern is for your movement or its value.  I believe it is focused on what you can get from your experience.  The movement and your intentions for it's disassembly can always come together after you find out if the spring just needed a good cleaning or untangling.  If you cause other problems you may never know and it's YOUR lost opportunity to learn that we care about.

Let us know how you make out either way.

Shane

[gbyleveldt]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

What about the amplitude? I'm oddly not finding a lot of great info about what i should expect.

In all but dial up position both my other 7s26's, one of which definitely needs a service, the other is not even a year old the amplitude is in the lower 200's in all but dial up position. 

Beat error on both is probably higher than it needs to be. Is there some rule to correcting beat error by moving the lever in one direction or the other or is it sortof a "Nudge it in one direction on the timegrapher and see what happens" situation?

You've had some very good advice so far, so I won't belabor it further. You've asked earlier what I found challenging initially and to be honest, well, all of it haha. Any automatic movement with day/date complications is going to be harder to work on than a larger traditional manual wind movement. Thing is, you don't know what you don't know so practicing on something that's easier helps build the confidence. But hey, if you up for servicing that 7S26 as your first project then I'll be the last to take the wind out of your sails. It's certainly not impossible because that's how I started, but that's because I'm pigheaded

Only real gotcha with those are the two train wheel cap jewels on the top plate. My advice is to leave those well alone as they are incredibly difficult to clean/oil. I eventually got an auto oiler for those as doing it manually just took too long. Outside of that it's not an overly difficult movement, there's just a lot of parts to to keep track of and can be intimidating when you beginning.

As far as amplitude is concerned there's a pretty large range of what is good for that movement. I routinely get them to around 270'ish degrees, but anything over 250 and you good. Getting it higher than that is less of an experience thing and more of a luck of the draw - bear in mind these are mass produced movements with a large amount of tolerance they need to operate in. Too much below 250deg is a sign that something isn't right and can be anything from needing a service or a tired mainspring through to excessive play in the main spring arbour holes and a chewed up top plate. The train itself doesn't have any wear that I've experienced so as long the movement is running, you should be ok there. Note that I'm talking about a mechanically sound movement here, not something that had a dip in the pool. As far as beat error is concerned it's more a thing of how patient you are adjusting it than an indication of the quality of your work. Only advice I can give here is to let that movement run for about two days after it's serviced before doing any kind of adjustment. Things need time to settle down after a service so resist the temptation to mess with it too soon as you'll likely have to adjust it again after a few days.

So if you pigheaded like me then go ahead, just understand that it's not a beginner movement.

Edited July 19, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[JohnR725]

19 hours ago, Birbdad said:

If i can avoid dropping the 60 dollars or so on a tiny bottle of hairspring cleaner and get away with naptha for now i'd like to. If hairspring dip is the only option then i guess i'll have to pick some up.

Out of curiosity where can I get some $60 hairspring cleaner it must be really good at the price

Not as good at least why price but I have a couple links below.

https://timesavers.com/i-9500836-one-dip-hairspring-cleaner-8-ounce.html

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/One-Dip-Cleaner-8oz.html

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/One-Dip-Cleaner.html

14 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Also here is the timegrapher results.  Big yikes at that amplitude!

Also a few times when i was winding it up i noticed it would stop running entirely for a brief second.  Did not expect that.

Why don't you just practice something like moving the regulator and putting the watch in beat before you take the balance out.

[Birbdad]

15 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

A bunch of stuff.

I am 100% pigheaded I can assure you! I got the same "Don't do it yet" advice when i bought a non working nova and a bunch of wrenches and a mechanics guide and an ammo press and a bunch of gun powder and bullets.

Drove the nova for 10 years and and I still got all my fingers. 

 

 

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Out of curiosity where can I get some $60 hairspring cleaner it must be really good at the price

Not as good at least why price but I have a couple links below.

https://timesavers.com/i-9500836-one-dip-hairspring-cleaner-8-ounce.html

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/One-Dip-Cleaner-8oz.html

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/One-Dip-Cleaner.html

Why don't you just practice something like moving the regulator and putting the watch in beat before you take the balance out.

I"m pretty sure that price is left over from all the earliest research I did some time ago when the only thing i could find people mentioning by name is essence of renata which is not available in the us, but I did find a few people selling it for some absurd prices.

20 bucks is shockingly reasonable for a liquid related to watchmaking lol.

And yes mission one is to regulate my watches that are running and get the beat error as low as possible. I actually set out to do that today only to find the case opening ball i bought which has worked on every watch i've tested it on...except mine, did not budge ANY of my case backs yet worked on 4 other seikos owned by people i know. Soon as i got the ball i changed the batteries in about 6 people i know's watches. SO i'm getting a cheaper jaxa style right now. I"m a little annoyed as the ball worked so good for everything else haha.

mission 2 will be to attempt to fix that balance spring by removing it and cleaning it.

Mission 3 will be to attempt to service my least valued 7s26 movement. If that works i will go onto my gen 1 orange monster which is one I actually have a strong attachment to and it desperately needs a service.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Birbdad

[gbyleveldt]

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I am 100% pigheaded I can assure you! I got the same "Don't do it yet" advice when i bought a non working nova and a bunch of wrenches and a mechanics guide and an ammo press and a bunch of gun powder and bullets.

Drove the nova for 10 years and and I still got all my fingers. 

 

 

I"m pretty sure that price is left over from all the earliest research I did some time ago when the only thing i could find people mentioning by name is essence of renata which is not available in the us, but I did find a few people selling it for some absurd prices.

20 bucks is shockingly reasonable for a liquid related to watchmaking lol.

And yes mission one is to regulate my watches that are running and get the beat error as low as possible. I actually set out to do that today only to find the case opening ball i bought which has worked on every watch i've tested it on...except mine, did not budge ANY of my case backs yet worked on 4 other seikos owned by people i know. Soon as i got the ball i changed the batteries in about 6 people i know's watches. SO i'm getting a cheaper jaxa style right now. I"m a little annoyed as the ball worked so good for everything else haha.

mission 2 will be to attempt to fix that balance spring by removing it and cleaning it.

Mission 3 will be to attempt to service my least valued 7s26 movement. If that works i will go onto my gen 1 orange monster which is one I actually have a strong attachment to and it desperately needs a service.

I agree with your mission statement 

Ah, reloading. I have to be honest that here I used a lot more care when I started vs working on watches. I love booms as much as the next guy, just not when it's 5 inches from my face. I used to do a lot of long range shooting prior to the lockdowns, since then my interests have shifted a little. I really need to get my ass in gear and pick it up again.

EDIT: ass isn't a swear word but **BLEEP** is? I give up

Edited July 20, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Birbdad]

12 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

I agree with your mission statement 

Ah, reloading. I have to be honest that here I used a lot more care when I started vs working on watches. I love booms as much as the next guy, just not when it's 5 inches from my face. I used to do a lot of long range shooting prior to the lockdowns, since then my interests have shifted a little. I really need to get my ass in gear and pick it up again.

EDIT: ass isn't a swear word but **BLEEP** is? I give up

Trust me my guy, now is not the time to get back into it. This is the longest and worst ammo panic i've ever lived through. Primers and powder? = Unobtainium unless you want to pay the price gouger tax.

Also i made a thread in the tools forum with my final checklist. Any chance you could go take a gander?

[watchweasol]

Hi Birbdad  you sound a determined guy, There is no problem in what you wish/want to do regarding the watch it just that we like as always err on the side of caution. If you feel you have the confidence and ability to do the job, good for you have a go.  With the stickey ball they dont always work and the alternative is the Jaxa or the cheap method of super gluing a nut to the back of the watch and using a spanner, the glue is removed using acetone, never had it fail yet.  Never tinkered with loading buttets but had a shotgun cartridge go off in the breech no damage to the gun or me which was a good result. As you will find as you progress Watchrepair as a hobby can get expensive, It seem everything carries a premium price although the stuff from Ali Express (the chinese Amazon) can be substancially cheaper.    enjoy  and good luck.