Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

I am starting my learning with a dollar pocket watch, westclox dax. I am using as a learning tool before moving into something nicer. I have taken apart and cleaned with the ultrasonic, and reassembled. The good news is, I am very comfortable with disassembly/assembly now, having tried to trouble shoot. The bad news is the watch does not want to run.

It seems to be like there are issues transferring power down the train of wheels. It will run for a bit, and the angle you hold it at affects how well it runs. Amplitude is very low. 
No wheels seem to be bound up, I have disassembled/reassembled, checked everything freely rotating. I have wound power into the spring before putting back into the case.

Does anyone have any tips on these watches? While I am using as a learning tool, getting used to tweezers, etc. it would be nice to have it running again. 
Thanks!

CD505105-A633-42C7-BDB4-982043B2B7BC.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

was it running before you started practicing on it?

oone of the problems with starting on something like this is it's not really the best thing to start with. On most watches you could take the balance wheel out you could check for power on the pallet fork you could take the pallet fork out see how the gear train spins but  this is kinda like all or nothing.

how worn out was this? The unfortunate problem of dollar watches are they were made to last forever.. So did you look at every single pivot and see how smooth and nice of looked  at all the holes looked perfectly round. If you wind it up to push gently on the balance wheel does a pallet fork snapped nicely or is it seems sluggish. It be a lot easier to see this of the balance wheel wasn't in.

Where the condition of the balance pivots like? There is also screwed to adjust that so they has to be enough play so it can move effortlessly.

how did you do the lubrication?

Did you unpin  they hairspring we took the balance out? If so did you put it back exactly where you found is so the watches in beat?

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

was it running before you started practicing on it?

oone of the problems with starting on something like this is it's not really the best thing to start with. On most watches you could take the balance wheel out you could check for power on the pallet fork you could take the pallet fork out see how the gear train spins but  this is kinda like all or nothing.

 

 

Thanks John. It was running prior to my taking apart - I didn't test for any length of time but it had a much better sound at least and worked no matter it’s orientation. I feel like it was working better than now. It was very dirty in some areas.

The pivot holes themselves seem nice and round. The pallet fork does seem sluggish. All of the wheels have a bit of play in the top/bottoms plates where they stick through. I did not adjust the balance pivot cup, given it was working previously. There is a tiny amount of play in the balance wheel up and down. I did not adjust the balance wheel cup screw given it was working previously. 
 

I did not unpin the hair spring from the top plate, just handled the whole assembly as gently as I could.

I did lubricate where the wheels come through on both sides. I was hoping the lubrication would be my issue after cleaning all of the parts, but it still seems like something is binding somewhere. As you said, difficult to look at as the top pivots are all in the top plate, so once removed the wheels are loose.

Thanks for your reply.

 

I should clarify the ‘bit of play’ for the wheels is up/down, not side to side like the holes are worn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Charette said:

It was running prior to my taking apart - I didn't test for any length of time but it had a much better sound at least and worked no matter it’s orientation. I feel like it was working better than now. It was very dirty in some areas.

this is good because it tells us that it's probably something you did. People a lot of times will start with broken stuff with the fantasy of fixing it. Then they get frustrated with they can't fix it and assume it's because it was broken when they start unaware that maybe they had done something to it.

then on something of this level you should have more play than you would in other things. In other words this was made to very low tolerances and they usually ran quite well.

Usually thinking of lubrication you do not oil the pallet fork pivots but you do need to lubricate where the escapement pins touch the escape wheel. Also you want to look there for aware because a lot of times the pins themselves would get worn quite heavily

sounds like you've done the right thing but were still not running? With no power all the wheels should have end shake they should build move up and down they should feel that they can move nicely. With power if you have a binding issue oftentimes you'll find wheels we tight like they're supposed to be a then you might find one that's loose perhaps.

Then we're back to the problem of it's hard to troubleshoot with everything it all together. It be interesting at taken apart take the pallet fork out put it all back together if you want to mess with the hairspring of the balance you put the balance back in but without the pallet fork the train should spin effortlessly when you wind the thing up.

also while it's a part remember you're supposed to put lubrication on the balance pivots with the type of bearings they have you can't oil it after the fact it have to well before you put it together.

Oh other things you do when the pallet fork is out and rotate the balance wheel about one turn and let it go and see how it's be evidenced in other words is it oscillates back and forth doesn't seem to do so effortlessly or does it seem to not do it effortlessly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

this is good because it tells us that it's probably something you did. People a lot of times will start with broken stuff with the fantasy of fixing it. Then they get frustrated with they can't fix it and assume it's because it was broken when they start unaware that maybe they had done something to it.

then on something of this level you should have more play than you would in other things. In other words this was made to very low tolerances and they usually ran quite well

I appreciate all of this. So far I have removed the pallet fork and reassembled. When putting pressure on the barrel everything spins freely. Just have to put the barrel ‘bridge’/cover on to try same with a wind. 

i did have my lubrication wrong - I had put a bit on the pallet fork pivots, and not on the pins or in the pallet pivots. Will fix that up.

balance wheel moves nicely when manually started, even without lubrication on the pivots yet. 

Rather, on the balance pivots *

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Charette said:

and not on the pins

yes not lubricating the escapement is going to lose a lot of energy there.

When you put it together you should see if it looks like it's in beat? That is before you wind it up.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

yes not lubricating the escapement is going to lose a lot of energy there.

When you put it together you should see if it looks like it's in beat? That is before you wind it up.

How can I tell if it is in beat? If impulse pin settles in middle of pallet fork? I don’t think this type of movement can be adjusted? Or more likely I just don’t know how. 
Thank you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Charette said:

If impulse pin settles in middle of pallet fork?

yes that is technically correct. Still check it when the powers off you can adjust it but you really don't want to. Same as any other watch should rotate the hairspring collet on the balance to put the balance where it's supposed to be. But there's a possibility that you meant they hairspring and now's a good time to make sure the hairspring is nice and flat it's not touching anything that it's not supposed to be touching and just shack to see that it looks like it should be in beat then you can wind it up and see how it's going to run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

I have a dollar pocket watch too, a Sun Mark St-Regis, which has a dial that has become beautifully brownish with the passing of time.

I can confirm that it's not the best watch to start with as some parts are not screwed, but riveted. Furthermore, it took me a huge amount of time to reassemble it, but I had the great pleasure to see that my watch was only 2 minutes slow, instead of 2 hours, and I managed to reduce it to 20 seconds.

I hope you will get good results while continuing to fix it.

Calibre Sun Mark.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Charette said:

How can I tell if it is in beat? If impulse pin settles in middle of pallet fork? I don’t think this type of movement can be adjusted? Or more likely I just don’t know how. 
Thank you. 

Hi Charette. Yes in a direct line of the pallet pivot hole,  the dead centre of the banking pins and the balance staff pivot hole. Easier to see without the train and escapement being in the way, as you progress in your learning make it a habit of checking this before other assemblies are made. Pocket watches and a lot of vintages watches dont have an adjustment arm on the balance assembly to allow for easy adjustment of the watches beat. Where the hairspring stud fastens in this situation is in a fixed arm so instead of adjustment being made from the top at the stud end of the hairspring it has to done from underneath the balance cock at the opposite end of the hairspring  where it attaches the innermost coil end to the collet. The collet is attached to the top of the balance staff. This adjustment can be risky for a beginner as you are having to get in very close to the hairspring. My preferred method is particularly risky as a screwdriver is inserted between the coils or from the centre of them through the top but i find it the quickest and most accurate way and generally only takes one attempt to  put the balance in beat. Another way would be to mark the collet's position, remove and then reposition it, still risky and may need more attempts.  So unless the balance has a very poor beat error maybe stay away from this adjustment until you have gained some more experience . This is where you would be working if you were to try.

 

20220708_073359.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks very much for all of the replies, very helpful.

My issue turned out to be in the lubrication. My lack of lubrication on the pallet pins was really slowing things down. A bit in the pivot cups for the balance also helped I am sure. Everything is now back together and it is keeping good time.

The beat looked good from a visual perspective, so I did not fuss with the hairspring, a bit intimidating at this time anyway. All in all, a great learning experience and fun.

I have one more dollar pocket watch to clean up, then a Swiss pocket watch with a movement that looks similar to the 6498 that was in the course I took, and then after that onto a wrist watch attempt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Charette said:

My issue turned out to be in the lubrication. My lack of lubrication on the pallet pins was really slowing things down. A bit in the pivot cups for the balance also helped I am sure. Everything is now back together and it is keeping good time.

yes it's amazing what lubrication will do to a watch especially in key areas like the escapement. they take the watch like this is a lot of metal on metal then yes lubrication to make a big difference.

This is where oftentimes the group we don't ask enough questions and people sometimes get annoyed because they are doing it right. The other one it's really bad for the escapement is to use the wrong type of lubricants I do one time somebody was using Molykote DX which is really sticky it apparently didn't really work well at all on escapement.

In a case outstanding that your watches running now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...