Recently acquired a watchmakers lathe, what should my first steps be?

[HectorLooi]

I just took apart one of these a few days ago. After removing the brass caps and the tightening ring, you also have to remove the tiny grub screw in the pulley, which locks it to the spindle.

I also had great difficultly knocking out the spindle but it probably hadn't been disassembled in maybe 50 years.

I had to spray plenty of WD40 on both ends and also down into the hole of the grub screw. I then used a bearing puller on it but I didn't dare apply too much force as the pulley appears to be made of bakelite. I left the bearing puller on for a couple of days, tensioning it a little more every day. It finally broke free on the third day.

The secret is plenty of WD40 and PATIENCE. Of course a bearing puller helps.

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[GregG]

28 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I just took apart one of these a few days ago. After removing the brass caps and the tightening ring, you also have to remove the tiny grub screw in the pulley, which locks it to the spindle.

I also had great difficultly knocking out the spindle but it probably hadn't been disassembled in maybe 50 years.

I had to spray plenty of WD40 on both ends and also down into the hole of the grub screw. I then used a bearing puller on it but I didn't dare apply too much force as the pulley appears to be made of bakelite. I left the bearing puller on for a couple of days, tensioning it a little more every day. It finally broke free on the third day.

The secret is plenty of WD40 and PATIENCE. Of course a bearing puller helps.

SG$ 11.52  42%OFF | Multifunctional 3 Jaw 60-150mm Bearing Puller Auto Gear Remover Pulling Extractor Tool with Reversible Legs
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLGEYME

Thanks Hector.  I did take off the grub screw on the pulley.  I wasn't sure if the entire thing was seized in place, or if it needed some lubrication to slide out.  Thankfully I've got plenty of WD40 so I'll give it a shot!

[HectorLooi]

 

My problem with this new lathe is the mounting screw. I measured the thread with a pitch gauge and it's a 1.5mm. The diameter of the screw is a little over 8 mm. None of my M8 x 1.5 nuts will fit it. 

The mounting screw and pedestal also seems stuck. I've tried clamping it in my bench vise but it doesn't seem to budge.

I want to replace my old lathe with this as my old lathe doesn't have the correct tailstock. I want to mount it on my old base but if I can't remove the mounting screw and pedestal, that would be a problem.

[Klassiker]

Have you checked the pulley for a grub screw?

[nickelsilver]

6 hours ago, GregG said:

Thanks Hector.  I did take off the grub screw on the pulley.  I wasn't sure if the entire thing was seized in place, or if it needed some lubrication to slide out.  Thankfully I've got plenty of WD40 so I'll give it a shot!

Sometimes grub screws are secured in place with a second grub screw on top. Double check that there isn't another in there.

 

It's ok to hit the spindle with a soft face hammer; one (or a few) smart smacks are better than a lot of little light taps.

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

 

 

My problem with this new lathe is the mounting screw. I measured the thread with a pitch gauge and it's a 1.5mm. The diameter of the screw is a little over 8 mm. None of my M8 x 1.5 nuts will fit it. 

The mounting screw and pedestal also seems stuck. I've tried clamping it in my bench vise but it doesn't seem to budge.

 

 

 

M8 is 1.25 pitch; 8mm with 1.5mm pitch is a special (but it exists). I wonder if, as Boley based this on the Webster Whitcomb design, they actually used an inch thread? 5/16" is darn close to 8mm, and it has a pitch of 1.41mm. Or if it is 8mm/1.5mm pitch the nuts you have on hand won't fit for sure, unless you happen to have actual 8mm/1.5 nuts.

 

It wouldn't be a crime to get the threaded rod out (they can be really really tight, but they do unscrew) and retap the bed for M8. The thread will look funky but will still work fine. Then you can use a standard threaded component to attach.

[GregG]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Sometimes grub screws are secured in place with a second grub screw on top. Double check that there isn't another in there.

 

It's ok to hit the spindle with a soft face hammer; one (or a few) smart smacks are better than a lot of little light taps.

The pulley is definitely free, i can shimmy it back and forth along the spindle independently.

I gave it a few harder smacks but the thing won't budge. I'll spray some wd40 in there and leave it for a while while I'm out today.

Edited July 30, 2022 by GregG

[GregG]

I've been wailing on this thing for the past hour and it's not a single micron further out than it was before.

I left it saturated with WD-40 all day and it doesn't appear to have helped at all.  The other pieces i used WD-40 on all loosened up right away, but the spindle eludes me...

Edited July 31, 2022 by GregG

[HectorLooi]

If the pulley is already able to slide, then the only thing left holding the spindle is the back bearing. I prefer to use a bearing puller as it is less likely to damage the spindle.

You could also try leaving the drawbar in and tap on the back of the drawbar to avoid denting or bending the spindle.

[nickelsilver]

The fit of the rear bearing to the spindle is ultra close; it's a light friction fit. It was fitted something like 100 years ago, and probably hasn't been adjusted in 60+ (it has to slide/move to adjust the bearing clearance). It's unlikely there's really any room for a penetrating oil to even creep in, but worth keeping it wet with some. A bit of heat will help, if you wave a torch over the rear of the spindle until it's just uncomfortably warm you won't hurt anything at all but it can really aid in things letting go. If you have a bearing puller like Hector mentions, and can get the jaws onto the rear headstock casting behind the pulley, keeping a steady pressure + heat would be great.

 

I've taken apart a lot of this type of spindle, some were real bears, but they all came apart eventually. What's really important is when going back together you have to get the key lined up right on the keyway. Those are a close fit, and with the tight fit of the bearing to the spindle, you usually can't really twist things very well when going back together (usually requires some hammer help again). 

 

Hector- I dug out an old G. Boley bed and head that was in the basement; the thread measures right on 8mm, 1.25 pitch on the bed screw. A random nut from the screw drawer fit; but it was snug compared to a standard 8mm bolt. A commercial 8mm bolt usually measures noticeably under nominal size-  one from the drawer was 7.80mm. It would be fine to run an M8 die over your bed screw, then you can get a couple of nuts on and jam them and use one to unscrew the bolt.

Edited July 31, 2022 by nickelsilver

[GregG]

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

If the pulley is already able to slide, then the only thing left holding the spindle is the back bearing. I prefer to use a bearing puller as it is less likely to damage the spindle.

You could also try leaving the drawbar in and tap on the back of the drawbar to avoid denting or bending the spindle.

Perhaps a dumb question, but which direction should this be tapped out? Towards the draw bar end or the other end? Or does it not matter?

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The fit of the rear bearing to the spindle is ultra close; it's a light friction fit. It was fitted something like 100 years ago, and probably hasn't been adjusted in 60+ (it has to slide/move to adjust the bearing clearance). It's unlikely there's really any room for a penetrating oil to even creep in, but worth keeping it wet with some. A bit of heat will help, if you wave a torch over the rear of the spindle until it's just uncomfortably warm you won't hurt anything at all but it can really aid in things letting go. If you have a bearing puller like Hector mentions, and can get the jaws onto the rear headstock casting behind the pulley, keeping a steady pressure + heat would be great.

 

Two hiccups i can see:

Can the mandrel (screw piece that you tighten) of the bearing remover damage the spindle if they're braced against each other? 

What can I use to act as a buffer between the two? A piece of wood?

And how exactly would the bearing puller be set up?  The mandrel being pushed into the front of the headstock, and the arms gripping behind the rear mounting point?  Or are the arms gripping the front mounting?  Even though they're rounded, I don't know if the arms will clear the pulley and make contact with the rear mounting point.

Edited July 31, 2022 by GregG

[nickelsilver]

12 minutes ago, GregG said:

Perhaps a dumb question, but which direction should this be tapped out? Towards the draw bar end or the other end? Or does it not matter?

One hiccup i can see is the mandrel of the bearing remover damaging the spindle if they're braced against each other.

What can I use to act as a buffer between the two? A piece of wood?

It should go that way.

 

I think wood would be a bit weak, some brass or aluminum would be better.

[GregG]

4 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It should go that way.

 

I think wood would be a bit weak, some brass or aluminum would be better.

Oh ok, I've been doing it in the opposite direction based on the YouTube video i watched.  Is it impossible to do it how I've been attempting?

I know they're rounded, but will the arms of the bearing puller clear the spindle and be able to grip the other side?

[nickelsilver]

There are lots of different bearing puller configurations, can't say without seeing it. But if you've been going the wrong way, I think you'll be surprised how easily it comes out now!

15 minutes ago, GregG said:

Is it impossible to do it how I've been attempting?

Literally impossible. The pic is just off the web, but you can see how things look apart. The front spindle bearing is part of the spindle, one piece of steel.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by nickelsilver

[GregG]

2 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

There are lots of different bearing puller configurations, can say without seeing it. But if you've been going the wrong way, I think you'll be surprised how easily it comes out now!

Literally impossible. The pic is just off the web, but you can see how things look apart. The front spindle bearing is part of the spindle, one piece of steel.

 

 

Ah yes, then it appears I've been wasting my time. XD

Thank you, I'll try giving it a few whacks from the opposite direction today.

[HectorLooi]

I finally got the mounting screw and pedestal off the lathe bed. It was no easy task.

I had to rethread the screw to a 8 x 1.25 thread, then jammed on 4 nuts and really doused it in WD40 overnight to loosen it.

I really have to thank @nickelsilver for his help. 

[GregG]

I finally managed to get the spindle out.  The bearing puller I had ended up being useless due to it's smaller-than-expected size.  Anyway, I took the plate that holds the T-rest to the main body and put it over the end of the spindle, so that when I used the mallet, I'd be hitting the plate, and the plate would push the spindle.  Then after a few surprisingly light hits, the spindle popped right out.  I supposed the rubber of the mallet was simply deforming under the small surface area of the spindle.

Anyway, now that it's out, I want to clean it.  These parts all seem to be solid, so would it be safe to ultrasonic these separately in a plastic basket (so that you don't have steel-on-steel vibrations)?  Also, there are two internal collars on the headstock with notches cut into them that are presumably used to transfer oil to the bearings.  There are also two matching notches cut directly into the headstock (sorry it's kind of hard to describe, I will get a picture when I can).  They are currently misaligned by about 50%, but I cannot find any way to rotate them, at least without risking damaging them.  Does anyone know of a way I can rotate the collars?

Edited August 2, 2022 by GregG

[GregG]

Bump, anyone?

[nickelsilver]

You can clean the parts in ultrasonic, yes good idea to keep things from vibrating on each other but even without should be fine.

 

The collars- can you take a pic? There are steel cone bearings pressed into the headstock; these are for all intents and purposes permanently in place and would require a press and special tooling to remove (or move). Perhaps you're talking  about the covers for the little oil ports?

[GregG]

45 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

You can clean the parts in ultrasonic, yes good idea to keep things from vibrating on each other but even without should be fine.

 

The collars- can you take a pic? There are steel cone bearings pressed into the headstock; these are for all intents and purposes permanently in place and would require a press and special tooling to remove (or move). Perhaps you're talking  about the covers for the little oil ports?

 

[nickelsilver]

That's A-OK, no need to worry about it.

[GregG]

4 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

That's A-OK, no need to worry about it.

Thanks.  Are the things in the pictures the piece that is press fit into place?  I was running my finger and a toothpick inside, and noticed that the oil well thing that distributes the oil had some black crud and I'm just wondering what I should do if an ultrasonic + degreser isn't enough.

[HectorLooi]

I wouldn't soak my lathe in the ultrasound. Especially not into an aqueous solution. The bearings are made of high carbon steel and the risk of rust outweighs the benefits of cleaning it.

I cleaned mine in a bath of turpentine and it seems fine.

[GregG]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I wouldn't soak my lathe in the ultrasound. Especially not into an aqueous solution. The bearings are made of high carbon steel and the risk of rust outweighs the benefits of cleaning it.

I cleaned mine in a bath of turpentine and it seems fine.

I ultrasonic'd it in lighter fluid, followed by about 2 hours in Evapo-rust.  Evapo-rust is rinsed off in water, so I quickly rinsed it and dried it, soaked up the remaining water with isopropyl alcohol, and oiled it, and everythings been holding up.

 

Also, is it safe to say that if the spindle needed some gentle persuasion to disassemble, that it would also need some gentle persuasion to reassemble?

Edited August 5, 2022 by GregG

[HectorLooi]

3 hours ago, GregG said:

Also, is it safe to say that if the spindle needed some gentle persuasion to disassemble, that it would also need some gentle persuasion to reassemble?

It shouldn't take any force to reassemble it. Just make sure the index nub in the back bearing is aligned with the slot on the spindle. It should slide in with hand pressure. Then tighten the tension ring until there is hardly any endshake. I like to pre-oil the bearing surface before assembling just to be sure there is no dry spots.

[GregG]

7 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

It shouldn't take any force to reassemble it. Just make sure the index nub in the back bearing is aligned with the slot on the spindle. It should slide in with hand pressure. Then tighten the tension ring until there is hardly any endshake. I like to pre-oil the bearing surface before assembling just to be sure there is no dry spots.

The bearings are definitely lubricated at this point.  I can only get the rear bearing on about 50% before it's too tough for hand-assembling.  The index pin has definitely aligned with the key hole in the threads. I'm not wailing on it to get it back together, just some gentle taps.

Edited August 5, 2022 by GregG