Seiko 6309A rebuild, mainspring barrel oil?

[BillM]

I am rebuilding an old Seiko 6309A movement (First time doing an auto movement).

I have the Seiko manual and it calls for Seiko S-2 oil for the mainspring barrel, but I cannot find much info on that oil.

I know it needs to have a "Breaking oil" on the inside walls of the barrel, but am lost as what to use.

I have a good handful of oils and grease, but dang, it's getting very expensive to buy a special oil for every movement and specific area of said movements.

All good, don't mean to complain, but the oiling for different movements is quite confusing, or at least feels mystic.

Any hints on best practices for lubricating auto wind barrels and mainsprings?

Many thanks for any help here.

Bill

 

[gbyleveldt]

I just use Moebius 8217 for braking grease. Now before I step on a potential landmine; I know there’s a whole lot of braking greases available for different barrel materials but most I come across are plated brass. 8217 works well with all the barrels I’ve come across so far.

For the mainspring proper I use very slight amounts of 8200. These I use on all main springs wether they automatic or manual. Again, you’ll have outliers but this work for most common movements 

You can certainly complain, and you won’t be the first, but you kinda collect these different lubricants over time as you progress in the hobby. The trick is to find the most common types and stick to that. When you start out, the type of movements are less esoteric so you can get away with the most common lubricants.

Edited June 18, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[BillM]

Thank you, and I know this question was a perfect potential landmine,.

I’ll go with your suggestion and add a bit more oil to my oil reserves.  lol. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Now before I step on a potential landmine

That silly what you afraid of innocuous step on a landmine near to the drive the vehicle into an entire field of landmines for as far as the eye can see. That's because everyone's going to disagree everyone has a different point of view and depending upon when the tech sheet was written and every single brand has a different recommendation so what's the problem here?

2 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

I use very slight amounts of 8200.

This is considered the universal mainspring Greece except? On modern mainsprings there either prelubricated or for some unknown reason they do not require lubricants. So you will usually see the recommendation that you don't need this.

3 hours ago, BillM said:

All good, don't mean to complain, but the oiling for different movements is quite confusing, or at least feels mystic

What you need to do is panic. Okay once panicking is over you can start to formulate a best approach and follow that. If you have access to the timing machine not a timing app but like the Chinese 1000 or the 1900. When you're evaluating your handiwork as long as it seems acceptable then you're doing fine.

For instance if you go the link below will take you the cousins and some Omega working instructions. Unfortunately it's not the complete list of all of them it's kind of a sampling you want to download number 40 it would give you some ideas on lubrication. Then even if you ignore most of the lubrication choices they also have nice drawings of how much lubrication you should use hints on lubrication of the escapement etc.

2 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Moebius 8217 for braking grease.

It might be helpful to explain how much you apply to the barrel wall?

3 hours ago, BillM said:

Seiko S-2 oil for the mainspring barrel,

One of the problems is Seiko has their own lubricants which for the most part cannot be found anywhere in the universe at least not anymore.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working

Then how but some Seiko confusing lubrication chart? Yes I know it's not the right watch but close enough. You'll notice on the barrel there is the S 2 lubrication and it's used everywhere in the barrel. It's used as a breaking grease and the lubrication. It usually looks like a graphite-based lubricant. I've seen the suggestion that the original Seiko mainspring bridal is much stronger than a normal one found an automatic so you can use the same grease for everything and it seems to work. Don't know if the bridal really is thicker they usually are but you can see the lubrication is used for both the spring and the bridal

then they using a grease s-4 on the barrel arbor. Where I happen the currently favor 9504 yes I know it's expensive all the lubrication's are expensive except typically don't go through the very fast.

Then notice everything else if we convert that lubrication to a number it's 9010 which I personally find insanely too thin to use anywhere. Then yes they are lubricating the pallet fork pivots sometimes Seiko does sometimes they don't. I think occasionally I've seen they lubricate one pivot but they don't lubricate the other.

Basically you find what you have what you like and you use that you don't worry about anybody else. But you can still ask for suggestions.

 

 

[gbyleveldt]

53 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

That silly what you afraid of innocuous step on a landmine near to the drive the vehicle into an entire field of landmines for as far as the eye can see. That's because everyone's going to disagree everyone has a different point of view and depending upon when the tech sheet was written and every single brand has a different recommendation so what's the problem here?

Well, you identified the problem right there  Everyone believes their god is real, so opposing views have a way of setting off minefields - especially when the same manufacturers change their minds over time as to what products and techniques to use. The Epilame discussion was a classic example.

56 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

This is considered the universal mainspring Greece except? On modern mainsprings there either prelubricated or for some unknown reason they do not require lubricants. So you will usually see the recommendation that you don't need this.

Yup, if you buy a new mainspring no need for lubrication. But we don't replace main springs with every service, we re-use them. That's why we pay a fortune for main spring winders. So after you've cleaned the main spring, surely you need to lubricate it? I'm talking of most movements here, not fancy ones with funky materials on springs. You say for some unknown reason modern ones don't require lubrication, but would a thinly applied layer of 8200 be detrimental? All else being equal, it'll make me warm and fuzzy inside to know that a wear item has *some* lubrication on it.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

It might be helpful to explain how much you apply to the barrel wall?

Ah, a very important point that I failed to explain properly. I have seen guys on YT apply three or four small blobs on the barrel wall (in fact, I think in Mark's course he also does this - I'll have to check again to refresh my memory). I have had the odd occasion where when doing this, I can feel the spring in the barrel gripping and releasing randomly as I overwind the spring to test it's function. So lately I've been spending a bit more time here trying to cover the entire inner barrel wall with 8217, taking care to make sure not to overdo it but to have a very thin layer all around. This is just what I do, not saying it's gospel but it works for me. But I can feel the slight braking action in effect, without it being inconsistent, as I overwind the spring.

Seiko is another classic example of them changing their minds over time as to how to lubricate the watch. They used to recommend oiling the pallet fork pivots. They also recommended oiling both stones on the fork. Lately their sheets don't recommend oiling the pallet fork pivots (inline with accepted practice) but (if memory serves) they still want you to oil both pallets. Do they change their minds because they've got 100 years of data to direct their thinking, or did they not really think on it too much and just going with what other manufacturers recommend? I guess we will never know. In the case of Seiko, I don't take their recommendations to heart but follow what is the current state of thought on servicing watches in general. If it was an Omega, I'd follow their instructions to the letter, simply because I don't have enough of my own experience with their movements to know better - even though they also changed their recommendations over time.

So we come full circle back to my initial statement. Minefields...

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Yup, if you buy a new mainspring no need for lubrication. But we don't replace main springs with every service, we re-use them. That's why we pay a fortune for main spring winders. So after you've cleaned the main spring, surely you need to lubricate it? I'm talking of most movements here, not fancy ones with funky materials on springs. You say for some unknown reason modern ones don't require lubrication, but would a thinly applied layer of 8200 be detrimental? All else being equal, it'll make me warm and fuzzy inside to know that a wear item has *some* lubrication on it.

One of the things I find interesting is the push for synthetic lubricants and we have 8200 which is not synthetic.

If you look at a whole want to package is a mainsprings though oftentimes say pre-lubes or a reference that no lubrication is required but not disclosing why no lubrication is required so the theories range from it's a dry lubricant like Teflon which you can barely see all the way up to the metal just slides really nicely on itself no lubrication is required.

A for instance Omega. I like to use that because I way more documentation for them than I do other things. So they have a vast number of working instructions 67 covers recycling mainspring barrels. Which is interesting because I've talked to people who work at Swatch group service center and they never recycle they replace. But here Omega tells you how to recycle your barrel.

Basically it says how to disassemble and visually verify that everything is perfect everything has to look nice nothing is worn out nothing is well nothing is like what we would find in watches that were servicing that a been around for a while and they just aren't going to be perfect. But Omega expects perfect. Then of course they check the end shake of the harbor and the barrel to make sure that's right and adjust if necessary.

Then the mainspring is cleaned with a lint free cloth no solvents no cleaning fluids. I've seen other references before to this and I'm not sure why they don't want them to be cleaned. The mainspring barrel is run through a cleaning machine complete with the arbor.

Now that you have your nice clean barrel you're supposed to use epilam on it. Not the mainspring just the barrel in order.

Then somewhere on the discussion group we've already covered Omega typically uses P125 for the breaking grease is applied in small quantities around the rim at stuff is usually really really sticky. I remember when I was working in the shop with the previous watchmaker doing a Seiko watch and I asked how much to apply he said around the entire rim of the barrel and that answer would be incorrect there's a reason why you have blobs because the stuff is really really sticky. When I wound up the Seiko and it hit the end I thought is to break the screw off the ratchet wheel.  It's one of the reasons as curious about the quantity of Greece you are using because each of the breaking greases has different properties

Then your nice clean mainspring goes into the barrel think it's closed up and no lubrication on that clean mainspring other than the breaking grease. So I guess that supports the theory that? They don't want it cleaned so maybe you're cleaning would watch something off may be it's probably the metal itself it likes to slide on itself

But that doesn't explain why I typically use 8200 and all of my mainsprings. You do want to be careful not to get carried away because of if he is too much it will leak out of the barrel and make a big mess. But I'll skip over how I know the.

So if we believe Omega it doesn't matter whether it's new or used no lubrication. Then I've seen people online sometimes I actually recommend the oil on the mainspring something a little bit lighter than the 8200.

In the end for lubrication it all comes down to are you happy with the performance. Then do you stay happy with the performance for the next several years if so you've done good if the watch crashes and burns really fast then you did bad. Then yes you can do that with a really poor choices of lubrication.

A note regarding the breaking grease? Somewhere I've seen it written out basically a wine the mainspring up until it slips keeping track of how many turns it took to do that then you let the power back off counting how many turns are laughed. This is where it be nice if someone would write this down for us so when the mainsprings slips you don't want at the lose 100% of the power. I'm not sure if there's a rule of thumb number of how much you should lose you just don't want to lose all affect. Then of course you definitely do wanted to slip when it reaches the end because acting cause a timing issue of too much power.

Oh say: pallet fork pivots? Sometimes I wonder if the artist doing the drawings were given a Post-it note of what they're supposed to do and maybe not paying attention hundred percent.

It would be nice to find somebody in Seiko that you can ask questions. The pallet fork lubrication is a major  question people have. Then there is the amplitude question  Seiko's run usually a much lower amplitudes. Apparently this is by design. Typically do not find it in any other documentation except there's one manual which is their alarm watch it actually tells you what the acceptable amplitude for Seiko is.  As I already have the image I'm just attaching

Okay now for pallet fork pivot lubrication? The rule is it's a non-rotating component so it doesn't need a lubricant. Then a lot of stuff is carryover from the past were organic oils would go bad and having her pallet fork glued together because the oil disintegrated would be a bad thing. On the other hand is all the rest the oil goes bad is probably not going be that bad maybe

who is in a discussion once about the related the lubrication a newbie came and commented about and at the time I was thinking there is probably 1000 other reasons why there watch would be having problems except I was wrong. They had oil the pallet fork pivots but they used anchor oil. Anchor oil is an interesting substance the bottle I have is warders thin. It's so thin that when you apply it to the watch it spreads like crazy really fast so it's gone within no time. But apparently the early stuff had a really nice property of getting really sticky really really fast. So this person had the re-cleaned their watch to free up to pallet fork because it was glued in in about two weeks time. That's an example of not the used inappropriate oil in your past fork pivots

then of course there's the simplistic of not lubricating seems to work just fine so why do it.

Quartz watches are interesting in that their gear train does revolve but it revolves every time the stepping motor steps and the gear train has to move very fast or be lightweight because if there's a delay it causes an increase in power consumption in other words is more friction. So they do make a special oil for quartz watches it seems like that might be suitable for your pallet fork pivots even though you don't actually need any

Then yes if you put heavy oil on the pallet fork pivots you will see a decrease in amplitude.

I've also seen in  as I don't quite remember the author of not going to say who the person is but I had seen a reference to lubricating the pallet forks because? But I'm only going by memory which may not be accurate in the days of the paper tape machines which is basically equivalent to the graphical displays we have today if you lubricated the pivots it made things I not sure if more stable is right but I guess made the display look nicer. Of course they're not measuring amplitude they're just looking at the graphical display.

2 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

general. If it was an Omega, I'd follow their instructions to the letter, simply because I don't have enough of my own experience with their movements to know better - even though they also changed their recommendations over time.

Then yes Omega's definitely change their mind over time. Their choice of insanely similar merchants on the key less in the late 50s slowly getting heavier but in my view still way too  light. Then of course what they recommended you epilam in the late 50s versus today which is practically the entire watch. Although some of that is because they've always epilam practically the entire watch and the modern cleaning machines and fluid strip but awful lot faster so you actually see a document that says do it every single time. Then yes the Swatch group service center goes through a huge quantity of that on a regular interval but there servicing a lot of watches. I'm assuming when you buy it in huge quantities get a better price than the small blog that we buy

[bklake]

I actually have Seiko S-2.  It took a long time to find it and a few failed attempts to get Japanese sellers to send it to the US in the mail.  It is a bit thicker than Mobius 8217.  I would say it looks almost identical to Kluber 125 in color and consistency. 

In the package of grease was Seiko's instructions for application.  Basically, you brush it on the barrel wall, barrel bottom and barrel lid.  If you have opened a Seiko barrel, they are not shy about how much they used.  I do suspect there is a specific amount that should be applied to each surface and it is taught in a class but not really published.  There is no mention of drops of oil on the mainspring. 

There is the Swiss way and there is the Japanese way of doing things.  Sometimes they contradict and clash.  Don't be in a rush to default to the Swiss way on a Japanese movement.  Auto winding reverser wheels in the Seiko 8305 come to mind.  The Swiss wash and lube their reverser wheels.  The 8305 Technical Guide says wash, no lube.  There are only a few posts I can find on this issue.  The watchmaker prepared them the Swiss way and the watch came back in two weeks not winding.  When done the Seiko way, there were no further problems. 

The 6309 Technical Guide shows S-2 on the barrel wall, bottom and lid.  Nothing on the spring coil.  The instructions in the S-2 box say to brush it on.  If oil and grease mix, it makes goo that does not act like either oil or grease.  In a confined space, the two will mix. 

[gbyleveldt]

1 hour ago, bklake said:

If oil and grease mix, it makes goo that does not act like either oil or grease.  In a confined space, the two will mix. 

That's an interesting point you raise, thank you. I might have to walk back on what I've said above as I hadn't thought of that.

[BillM]

Wow, what a huge amount of info to take in, thank you so much. 
I need to re-read this when I have more time, again, thank you!