Incabloc v. look-a-like clone systems

[grsnovi]

I'm curious, can anyone comment on differences between a genuine Incabloc shock spring v. a look-a-like in a Seagull clone movement. Would a clone maker purchase springs from Incabloc or simply make their own out of inferior materials or thinner material.

I'm about the remove capstones for the first time and I'm wondering just how fragile these clone springs are going to be.

Thanks!

[Neverenoughwatches]

40 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

I'm curious, can anyone comment on differences between a genuine Incabloc shock spring v. a look-a-like in a Seagull clone movement. Would a clone maker purchase springs from Incabloc or simply make their own out of inferior materials or thinner material.

I'm about the remove capstones for the first time and I'm wondering just how fragile these clone springs are going to be.

Thanks!

I would err on the side of caution G. I imagine all of a clone will be sub standard to its genuine counterpart. Shock springs are notoriously delicate and troublesome anyway more so in vintage watches. Here though with an incabloc you are easing yourself into this practice, its also new so you should be ok. Lets have a look at what you are doing.

[RichardHarris123]

It's a good question, I've been curious about the different shock systems.  Is there a clear winner/ loser? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

42 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It's a good question, I've been curious about the different shock systems.  Is there a clear winner/ loser? 

Evening Rich. Some are much harder than others. Incablocs i find ok. Only ever had one really difficult shock spring,  it was tiny like a diashock had 3 prongs but the setting had 3 cut outs instead of one. All 3 tabs had to go in at once and then turn to lock it in. It was a bloody pain and i lost it temporarily twice. It made me a little angry as i remember . So i told it off, let it know it was about to die a painful death unless it cooperated that instant. I won the day naturally. 

[RichardHarris123]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Evening Rich. Some are much harder than others. Incablocs i find ok. Only ever had one really difficult shock spring,  it was tiny like a diashock had 3 prongs but the setting had 3 cut outs instead of one. All 3 tabs had to go in at once and then turn to lock it in. It was a bloody pain and i lost it temporarily twice. It made me a little angry as i remember . So i told it off, let it know it was about to die a painful death unless it cooperated that instant. I won the day naturally. 

Hehe.  I actually meant better at reducing shock rather than working on but I suppose the ease of working on is important too. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Hehe.  I actually meant better at reducing shock rather than working on but I suppose the ease of working on is important too. 

Erm. Not sure about that one. I like your outside of the box questioning. You’ll go far here . Not that you can change anything though .

Edited June 13, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

differences between a genuine Incabloc shock spring v. a look-a-like in a Seagull clone movement.

This is a interesting question because the spring is hard to analyze it either works or it doesn't.  I was trying to remember when I was teaching watch repair we were using the Chinese clone in the classroom and I know we purchased replacement springs. But that was mainly because the Chinese ones have a habit of falling. Then there really tiny and if the classroom has a carpeted floor which it did losing super tiny gold springs can sometimes be problematic to find. I don't recall how many springs got broken though that would be the biggest danger of the spring just breaking.

Then of course there is the other issue of where do the springs come from? Conceivably the Chinese could purchase them from the Swiss. Conceivably the Swiss could have the Chinese manufacture them because the cost would be less. It does tend to be a lot of outsourcing of Swiss components to other parts in the planet.

Then in some ways this is a two-part question although I may be reading something into it?

The biggest problem when the Chinese clone stuff is they don't always get 100% correct. If the search engine of this group functioned properly could do a search because we've discussed this couple of times before complete with pictures. It's the part that holds the spring that is the biggest problem. The Chinese basically skipped or simplify a step. That allows the spring to fall out very very easily.

Then a note regarding some of the other springs you talk about some of them actually have tools for putting the Springs in. I think there is a special tool for putting the Seiko springs back in and I know the other Swiss spring maker company whose name I can't quite think of they ask he have an assortment of tools. So a lot of the circular ones we have to put three tabs and simultaneously there may actually be a special tool to hopefully help with fact but no matter what they can be a pain

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

This is a interesting question because the spring is hard to analyze it either works or it doesn't.  

I knew you'd like it John i just knew it. Did you notice how i drew you into duscussion . 

[clockboy]

My advice with shock springs is remember they are springs and will fly without control.. Always, always support when releasing. I see pros releasing springs on YouTube without support but trust me even they can get caught with a flyer. Replacing or even finding a replacement can be a nightmare. 

[RichardHarris123]

3 minutes ago, clockboy said:

My advice with shock springs is remember they are springs and will fly without control.. Always, always support when releasing. I see pros releasing springs on YouTube without support but trust me even they can get caught with a flyer. Replacing or even finding a replacement can be a nightmare. 

The thing with videos is they don't show the cock ups. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

So a lot of the circular ones we have to put three tabs and simultaneously there may actually be a special tool to hopefully help with fact but no matter what they can be a pain

There you go John. A picture just for you my American buddy ❤. 3 plus a homemade one

13 minutes ago, clockboy said:

My advice with shock springs is remember they are springs and will fly without control.. Always, always support when releasing. I see pros releasing springs on YouTube without support but trust me even they can get caught with a flyer. Replacing or even finding a replacement can be a nightmare. 

They are the mother of all evil.

[grsnovi]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I've been curious about the different shock systems.  Is there a clear winner/ loser

Bestfit#111 part 2 lists 110 varieties of shock systems and has 30 pages of data. Many manufacturers create their own spring design. Incabloc has been around as its own thing since 1928.

[RichardHarris123]

I learn something new every day, 1928, wow. I would of guessed much later.  

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Lets have a look at what you are doing

Here's the upper capstone on the balance cock (the balance and hairspring are awaiting my re-assembly to the cock). The spring came out easily enough and did in fact pop over onto the mainplate. So, now I'll put a dab of 9010 on the stone, put the stone on the chaton pop that back into the cock and re-fit the spring.... 15 minutes later: well the jewel disappeared into thin air, I swear. Good thing I'm just practicing on junk.   ...and 5 minutes after that: lost the spring too, trying to pick it up with tweezers. OK, so the next time I do this...

Edited June 13, 2022 by grsnovi
added note about lost jewel

[JohnR725]

Your reminding me I was going to take some additional photographs of something? I have the entire upper jewel assembly of a 6497 Swiss version. I was going to take close-up pictures see you can see what's missing from the Chinese version. I'll have to put it on my list of things that I need to do but it may not ever get around to doing as I'm not quite sure what I did with the upper jewel assembly?

Then I have a link they have a website unlike some of the other companies

https://www.incabloc.ch/en/

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I learn something new every day, 1928, wow. I would of guessed much later.  

That is a long time ago, you were just a little nipper then Rich.

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

15 minutes later: well the jewel disappeared into thin air, I swear. Good thing I'm just practicing on junk.   ...and 5 minutes after that: lost the spring too, trying to pick it up with tweezers. OK, so the next time I do this...

Not actual thin air Gary. Its a time portal. I'm still searching for one big enough for me to fit through so i can go collect all the lost watch parts and set up my own parts supply company for when cousins have to shut up shop. So the next time you do this ....   dont lose the jewel or the spring. 

31 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

That is a long time ago, you were just a little nipper then Rich.

Not actual thin air Gary. Its a time portal. I'm still searching for one big enough for me to fit through so i can go collect all the lost watch parts and set up my own parts supply company for when cousins have to shut up shop. So the next time you do this ....   dont lose the jewel or the spring. 

Only joking G, I'm having a naughty day, haven't had one for ages he says. Lol. Next time you do this....  under or inside a sandwich bag, i have tried and tbh i wasn’t  keen.  Get some rodico in there to tame the little buggers. As soon as you remove the spring and the jewel get them stuffed into some rodico so they cant get lost.  And handling they are so bloody small and light  you need really good tweezer manipulation and a super light touch. Use a tiny roll up of rodico to move them around if you need to.  A small piece of rodico right next to the jewel setting on the mainplate push them straight into that as soon as you remove them. Then carefully put that somewhere safe. If you leave them loose hanging around on their own i will guarantee they will get knocked somehow and you will never see them again. Until i collect them up from the space time continuum and sell them on ebay. Trust me, if my missus farts in the next room they're gone if they not secured down. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[grsnovi]

59 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Next time you do this....  under or inside a sandwich bag

I was thinking of doing it inside a plastic bag but didn't want the bag to interfere with seeing

I was just trying to pick the spring up off a sheet of paper without optical magnification. Next time...

[anilv]

I have 2 Seagulls which have 3 broken cap springs. These are the earlier generation Seagulls where the spring looks similar to the Inca but slides out instead of flipping up. The problem with these is the metal is not 'springy and they have broken.

I find this quite common in chinese movements where the design is copied but the metal tech is poor, eg screws, springs etc.

Anilv