Sticky Strange Hairspring ?

[MrBeat]

I have been working on a rather neglected and damaged Omega 1002 Caliber, and despite the rust ,corrosion, and other nasties the parts have come up pretty good. One issue i do have is a strange hairspring ?

 

Despite my best efforts the hairspring does not want to play ball. The balance when upturned shows the hairspring to be perfect, when mounted the coils stick in places and obviously the timing is way way out. So i remove the balance and sure enough the coils sit as they should, then with tweezers and gentle movement i see the coils stick to one another. If i pull the coil upwards lightly and then back in place the coils sit as they should again, and if i move the wheel the coils stick ?!?

 

Tweezers = Demagnetized YES

Balance = Demagnetized YES

Balance Cleaned = Yes, three times in lighter fluid in the usual manner then dried on paper.

Hairspring kinked ? = No kinks, No twists, No damage at all, Perfect condition

 

 

Now im at a loss as to what is causing this, the balance is clean as a whistle, no oil or grease at all, and the whole thing including tools have been demagnetized, so what gives ?

Edited May 28, 2015 by MrBeat

[Geo]

It still sounds like magnetism is an issue. Did you demagnetise the whole movement or just the balance? I always demagnetise the complete movement, and sometimes it takes more than one attempt.

[MrBeat]

I did both, i did the movement when whole and while i had the balance separate.

 

I think i need to get me a decent Demag, Cousins have the Etic for a good price and i don't trust my current demag block. Its silly really having all good tools elsewhere but yet not having a common decent demag.

I can't see it being anything else as the cause because the balance is perfect. Theres always one more tool :)

[Rob]

Check with a compass to see if the parts are magnetized or not.

 

 

[clockboy]

If it is not magnetism then the spring needs a really good soak in a de-greaser. 

[DouglasSkinner]

I had a similar issue recently and it turned out to be grease/oil which I couldn't see but when I put the spring into an organic solvent (hexane) and then dried it, it behaved!

[MrBeat]

Well i have tried the new demag and the reading is just the same, the graph is all over the place and the balance is being very eratic with the coils sticking and unsticking  :pulling-hair-out:

 

The reading looks as it would if it were magnetized but ive demagnetized it ? Ive soaked the balance in lighter fuel for over an hour and the coils still stick ?

 

Im going to try and run the balance through my cleaners again and give it a good soak, somethings gotta give. If all else fails i have a complete new balance on its way ( got it at a bargain price too ).

[Geo]

You have a really strange one there. I'm most interested to know what is causing the problem, so please keep us informed.

[MrBeat]

Well i come back with good news :D

 

After some further cleaning the coils now no longer stick and the movement is running +-13sec with a beat error of 0.1ms before adjustments. Needless to say im quite pleased with that result considering the watch was left on rusted state ( badly ) and all my cleaning and patience has paid off.

 

What i did .....

 

I checked the movement against a compass and sure enough after the new demag there was no magnetism present.

I stripped the balance down and left to soak in Elma Chrono Clean @ 50c, rinse, dry, and back into some clean lighter fuel, dry , reassemble. Coils no longer stuck together yay !

Once reassembled the movement sprung to life and i checked the timing ( with above mentioned results )

 

I did notice after the chrono clean there was a residue present, i can only assume there was some sort of contaminant that did not dissolve under normal cleaning. I have never had a problem with cleaning parts like this before but i think im going to add a new part to my cleaning ritual to ensure all contaminants are free.

 

 

I now have to reassemble the auto works and date works, fingers crossed all should go well and i can re case the watch back in original home. This poor watch was in such a state i really hope i can pull it off so it may live again :)

 

I will post pictures when done :)

[Geo]

That's great news and thanks for letting us know what the issue was.

Mr Beat was not beat! :)

[MrBeat]

Well i wouldn't say ive beat it yet ha ha, i forgot entirely to do the mainspring which im hoping is the last gremlin. I got the watch fully assembled and noticed it would stop & start, then remembered i didn't do the mainspring which was dry and in need of sorting. Hopefully it will be done and no more issues. That will teach me for doing 3 watches at same time lol, forgetting mainspring what am i like :)

[Blacklab]

Sorry a bit late on parade here, but I normally squirt fresh lighter fluid over the hairspring after cleaning as a final rinse. I have had similar sticking problems in the past & this appears to have solved the problem.

[MrBeat]

Well just my luck the watch is acting up again. The mainspring is kinked so i have ordered a replacement , but the balance coil is now no longer perfectly concentric and is causing havoc with timing. 

 

The beat error and timing is all over the place, im not sure how much of that is to do with the mainspring ( uneven power release from kinks ? ) and how much is due to this mystery balance. The roller seems fine as does the rest of the balance but for some reason this watch is becoming more & more of a challenge, only yesterday the timing was pretty good and now the watch is back to square one. The watch runs but its no good if it can't tell time accurately :(

 

To give you an idea, it went from 0.1ms beat error +-13 seconds to this >

 

Edited May 31, 2015 by MrBeat

[MrBeat]

Well i have gone through each of the drivetrain gears to check for bent pivots or issues as this normally is one of the causes of irratic timing. The problem seems to stem from the mesh between the mainspring barrel and the center wheel, there is free movement and then sudden resistance, then free, then resistance. Im figuring the pitch of the teeth on either or both the mainspring barrel & center wheel are causing the timing to be irratic. The center wheel looks ok but the barrel teeth may be the issue as there is very subtle marks to the teeth edge. If the drivetrain is not completely free then of course it is going to stutter and cause the issues im seeing.  Am i right in my thinking here ?

[Geo]

What I do to check the free running of the movement is remove the balance and pallet lever, having first let down the tension in the mainspring. Now hold back the click (or remove it completely) and puff air from a blower onto the periphery of the escape wheel. This is a really gentle action, but enough to drive the wheels of the movement if everything is running freely. It will readily show op tight spots.

If you do this every time you assemble a watch before fitting the ratchet wheel, escapement lever and balance, you will know if all is well or not and save a lot of time and frustration later if there is an issue.

[Blacklab]

Possible barrel arbor hole problem? See: https://adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.wordpress.com/2014/12/

[MrBeat]

Possible barrel arbor hole problem? See: https://adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.wordpress.com/2014/12/

 

Seems to be something like this, ive got just the mainspring barrel in and there is some resistance and stoppage , though i can not see where it is coming from at the moment. There is a lot of play in the barrel ( up and down ) which is a concern as this will cause the teeth not to mesh correctly. But the barrel alone is not right, i just need to find out which part it is ?!

 

I figured initially that the teeth may be damaged but under microscope they are fine, so this lead me to the barrel.

 

Geo - I do check the free running before hand, drivetrain>check>barrel>check etc, in much a similar way as you describe. I must be overdoing it and neglecting the basics :)

[MrBeat]

Well im gonna have to hold back and await the parts i have coming, im sure the meshing of the barrel & center wheel are the cause. This is dragging out much further than i anticipated and i thank all of you for your input, its always nice to feel im not crying alone :)

 

Btw i did check the barrel holes and there is no wear or ovaling, the play ( or gap ) is for the center wheel to sit between the ratchet wheel and barrel.

[MrBeat]

New parts arrived today and once fitted the problem persisted ?!? So with my sherlock holmes hat on i went by the numbers through everything i could think of that COULD cause the mainspring to jar with the intermediate wheel ( not center wheel as previously stated ). It's funny because it is nearly always the smallest thing that stomps me and this time it was no exception, the cause......the click spring screw. I never really saw or paid attention to it whilst stripping the watch as it looked correct, however i foolishly took for granted the last person to service the watch would have assembled it correctly. The damage to the old mainspring barrel was not from poor mesh or debris but an over long screw tip knocking the barrel teeth.

 

With the problem now known i have replaced the screw with one more suited and the drivetrain was now free again to move as it should. Funny to think that such a small deviation could mask itself as so many possible errors. The original balance is now super clean and functioning exactly as it should ( at long last ), so i can now keep the new balance as a future spare.

 

The watch had come to me in a really poor condition with badly damaged casing , scratched glass, damaged strap, and a rusted movement with gremlins running rampant. I am pleased to say after much tlc and patience she now runs super smooth with fairly good looks for her age i think :) Of course you lot just love your pictures so here you go.....

 

 

Omega 1968 - Gold plated De Ville Automatic - Caliber 1002 - New Lizard strap :)

 

 

 

She still has some scars but far better than what she started as :)

[Geo]

That's great that you've got to the bottom of the problem. You have ended up with a really nice watch! :)

[Blacklab]

Very nice work 5*. Good lesson learnt - always assume the last person to service the watch did so poorly, most of mine appear to have had the hammer, wood chisel, Vim & WD40 treatment in the past.

[Marc]

That's a quality result, very nice indeed.