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Was the spring original (blued or black steel)?  That would definitely need replacing.

Let down the power and remove the click. Rotate the barrel forward and back a fraction while watching the train.  Look for any wheels that wobble around or back/forth which would indicate worn or broken pivots or worn bearing holes.  That could cause the stop/start problem as wobbly pivots can allow other things rub and cause friction.

I wouldn't suspect a balance problem unless the pivots are broken or something (which is all too common).

Disclaimer:  I'm just learning myself, but thinking and writing about stuff is how I Iearn.

Edited by ChrisRobinson
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1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Working on this. Wasn't running, serviced, full of grime, now running but really low amplitude.  Also stop/start.  I think it needs a new main spring but balance issues too? 20220514_180535.thumb.jpg.09427790b4ab088fcd1c7571288d3b64.jpg20220514_180535.thumb.jpg.09427790b4ab088fcd1c7571288d3b64.jpg20220514_180535.thumb.jpg.09427790b4ab088fcd1c7571288d3b64.jpg20220514_180535.thumb.jpg.09427790b4ab088fcd1c7571288d3b64.jpg

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Rich Have you taken some positional readings ? This will give you an approx idea as to issue. Did all the pivots look ok ?

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22 hours ago, ChrisRobinson said:

Was the spring original (blued or black steel)?  That would definitely need replacing.

Not necessarily, springs can last a surprising time. It depends on how it looks, and if it has lost it's elasticity.

Do you have a pic of the spring out of the barrel ?

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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Not necessarily, springs can last a surprising time. It depends on how it looks, and if it has lost it's elasticity.

Do you have a pic of the spring out of the barrel ?

Agree here. A look at the spring in its relaxed state will give a good idea of how fatigued it is. A strong health spring will want to stretch out and release its energy. A bit like how we  wake  up in the morning ready for action. Strange analogy but sort simplifys the explanation. 

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In your last picture it looks like the spring that is supposed to hold the click against the ratchet wheel is missing.  I assume you added that back?  Otherwise it would be hard to get any power at all.

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30 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

In your last picture it looks like the spring that is supposed to hold the click against the ratchet wheel is missing.  I assume you added that back?  Otherwise it would be hard to get any power at all.

The photo was taken as I was dismantling.  The spring is back in place now. 

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As a reminder to everyone this is a full plate English watch and it was made of a very very long time ago. Like any vintage pocket watch we don't know it's repair history and there could be just about anything wrong with this one. Plus as a bonus it looks like it's new enough that they put movable banking pins on.

Even if the mainspring is set which it probably is if it's wound up tight it should still run the watch for a little while you just won't get hours and hours of running time. So the mainspring should be good enough to do an evaluation to see what's going on.

Then it looks like a seven jewel watch which means all the rest of the holes can wear out or become no longer round.

Then of course it's a full plate which has one minor good advantage but for the most part everything else is negative. You want to be extremely careful when you take this apart put it back together because getting the pallet fork where it's supposed to be and not breaking the pivots off or knocking the jewels out of alignment is definitely an issue.

As your balance wheel is how could you get a picture of each side of the balance wheel so we can see the pivots and I want to see what the roller table looks like. Also it's hard to see the end of the pallet fork in your picture looking down on the movement so it be nice to see what the end of the pallet fork looks like. Plus while you're there gently push on the pallet fork doesn't jump back and forth when the mainspring is wound up or is it having a problem?

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6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

As a reminder to everyone this is a full plate English watch and it was made of a very very long time ago. Like any vintage pocket watch we don't know it's repair history and there could be just about anything wrong with this one. Plus as a bonus it looks like it's new enough that they put movable banking pins on.

Even if the mainspring is set which it probably is if it's wound up tight it should still run the watch for a little while you just won't get hours and hours of running time. So the mainspring should be good enough to do an evaluation to see what's going on.

Then it looks like a seven jewel watch which means all the rest of the holes can wear out or become no longer round.

Then of course it's a full plate which has one minor good advantage but for the most part everything else is negative. You want to be extremely careful when you take this apart put it back together because getting the pallet fork where it's supposed to be and not breaking the pivots off or knocking the jewels out of alignment is definitely an issue.

As your balance wheel is how could you get a picture of each side of the balance wheel so we can see the pivots and I want to see what the roller table looks like. Also it's hard to see the end of the pallet fork in your picture looking down on the movement so it be nice to see what the end of the pallet fork looks like. Plus while you're there gently push on the pallet fork doesn't jump back and forth when the mainspring is wound up or is it having a problem?

I'll take photos when I get chance, probably tomorrow evening . The pallet was difficult to put back, it goes into a little cylindrical recess. The pallet moves freely without the pallet in place but doesn't snap back and forth. 

This photo didn't upload before.  The various components  were stuck to the top plate. 

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37 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

but doesn't snap back and forth. 

Classically in any watch under power the pallet fork has to snap. This is what supplies the energy to the balance wheel and if it can't supply energy way out your amplitude is going to suck

then I assume from the picture you put something together upside down? Because the pallet fork has to go into the cylindrical opening to engage the balance wheel it does present a problem. This means  people either assemble it upside down which I find a pain or they do it the other way but then you have to hold the pallet fork in place with a clip and bring bridge and the fork down and then of course make sure everything aligns otherwise things get broken or damaged.

The definition a broken damaged are broken pallet fork pivots quite common. Pallet jewels knocked out of alignment because they end up on top of the escape wheel. Or sometimes escape wheel whole jewels will break and/or pivots because it's really hard to see what you're doing when you're pallet fork and escape wheel are hidden between the plates.

Oh and other little things this is a seven jewel watch seed you want to make sure you lubricate it properly convinced I have a lot of power loss and did you lubricate the escape wheel in other words escapement lubrication which is hard to do because you can only see the edge of the escape wheel so that means you only put the lubrication on the teeth itself and hope that it spreads around.

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13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Classically in any watch under power the pallet fork has to snap. This is what supplies the energy to the balance wheel and if it can't supply energy way out your amplitude is going to suck

then I assume from the picture you put something together upside down? Because the pallet fork has to go into the cylindrical opening to engage the balance wheel it does present a problem. This means  people either assemble it upside down which I find a pain or they do it the other way but then you have to hold the pallet fork in place with a clip and bring bridge and the fork down and then of course make sure everything aligns otherwise things get broken or damaged.

The definition a broken damaged are broken pallet fork pivots quite common. Pallet jewels knocked out of alignment because they end up on top of the escape wheel. Or sometimes escape wheel whole jewels will break and/or pivots because it's really hard to see what you're doing when you're pallet fork and escape wheel are hidden between the plates.

Oh and other little things this is a seven jewel watch seed you want to make sure you lubricate it properly convinced I have a lot of power loss and did you lubricate the escape wheel in other words escapement lubrication which is hard to do because you can only see the edge of the escape wheel so that means you only put the lubrication on the teeth itself and hope that it spreads around.

The photo was from when I disassembled it.  All virtually glued to the top plate.

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This is a very old movement, with no visibility of the escapement (or much else for that matter); there are so many things that could possibly be robbing amplitude. If you are accustomed to refinishing pivots, bushing holes, replacing jewels, making staffs (I wouldn't be surprised at all if the staff is in poor shape even if somewhat functional), and setting up escapements then you might get it to run OK. But these sorts of movements can take hours and hours for an expert, don't get discouraged if you can't get it to run decently.

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I've removed the pallet, wheel train runs well.  I don't think the pallet looks too bad under the microscope and I can't see anything wrong with the balance.  I did my best with the pictures. 

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On 5/16/2022 at 6:59 AM, nickelsilver said:

This is a very old movement, with no visibility of the escapement (or much else for that matter); there are so many things that could possibly be robbing amplitude. If you are accustomed to refinishing pivots, bushing holes, replacing jewels, making staffs (I wouldn't be surprised at all if the staff is in poor shape even if somewhat functional), and setting up escapements then you might get it to run OK. But these sorts of movements can take hours and hours for an expert, don't get discouraged if you can't get it to run decently.

I won't get discouraged, reasonably proud of myself, I've only been doing this a couple of months. I would really like to get it running well though. 

Reassembled it. Not stopping but still not running well. 

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Edited by RichardHarris123
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What do you think is keeping the fork from doing a good snap, I would check if the lock on pallet-escape wheel is too heavy or on the heavy side. 

How well does the oscilator run when you shake the watch, see if this is noticably differenct  in FU and FD positions. 

Have you checked the jewels in balance setting and balance pivots under high magnification and DO PIVOTS LOOK TOO SHORT. 

Are you sure hairspring is not rubbing? 

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1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

What do you think is keeping the fork from doing a good snap, I would check if the lock on pallet-escape wheel is too heavy or on the heavy side. 

How well does the oscilator run when you shake the watch, see if this is noticably differenct  in FU and FD positions. 

Have you checked the jewels in balance setting and balance pivots under high magnification and DO PIVOTS LOOK TOO SHORT. 

Are you sure hairspring is not rubbing? 

Running pretty much the same in all positions.  Hairspring not rubbing. I haven't demagnitised it though. 

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6 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

No idea, I'm just guessing.  It hasn't stopped running for the last three hours though. 

If you place a white dot on the balance wheel when its at rest, you may see how far it travels and then make a guesstimate to the amplitude. I wonder if  pointing a strobe light at the balance wheel would pick up the dot ?

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

 

Not yet. I know I really need one. 

If it runs for 24 hours and keeps resonable time in all positions then thats about all you can ask.

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You dont have a timegrapher ?

Im getting close to relinquishing my hated rank title, ive had to suffer it for nearly five weeks now.  Only 63 posts left. I might have to go on a point collecting jaunt again. I upset someone last time and had a bit of a telling off haha. 

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18 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If you place a white dot on the balance wheel when its at rest, you may see how far it travels and then make a guesstimate to the amplitude. I wonder if  pointing a strobe light at the balance wheel would pick up the dot ?

If it runs for 24 hours and keeps resonable time in all positions then thats about all you can ask.

Im getting close to relinquishing my hated rank title, ive had to suffer it for nearly five weeks now.  Only 63 posts left. I might have to go on a point collecting jaunt again. I upset someone last time and had a bit of a telling off haha. 

Only about several hundred posts to get to your hated rank.

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2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Running pretty much the same in all positions.  Hairspring not rubbing. I haven't demagnitised it though. 

If magnetized hairspring might be sticking so  you do get low amplitude and the watch runs fast. 

There is a free app to download on your device called  WATCH ACCURACY METER, gives you the rate and beat error, not bad it will do until you decide to buy a tg. Using it you can see the rate which if crazy fast would indicate hairspring issue such as sticking.

 

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