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Omega pocket watch, question abotu the calibre and mainspring.


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6 hours ago, Kalanag said:

To get an idea:

That was a much better video than what I was expecting. Then looking at the rest of the videos he has quite a few of them look interesting off to look at them when I have more time.

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

There are literally hundreds of different patterns

Notice at the beginning he is a book and I stand corrected there are literally hundreds probably thousands of patterns of all requests.

Which is why for this discussion we really need to know whether it's we can fix the existing hairspring because somebody had an accident or?

Then the video does do a really good job of showing something and making it looks so simple where the skill set required to do that is a heck of a lot of skill set and that hairspring is of a very exacting nature anyway you can't just form one over coil on any old hairspring it has to be the right hairspring for the balance wheel.

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On 5/23/2022 at 9:10 AM, jpmort said:

Ok, I have a balance spring problem. And I wonder if anyone can assist... It is a Breguet overcoil, and it is the first time I have come across one. I am slowly having a go...

Can anyone help where can I find the guides that help me to realign the spring shape?

Thanks.

Pics... the balance and spring as I start with it... The spring is rubbing slightly on the balance, and I suspect I might have done this when I disassembled - I did not look at it in detail then, but it was not running then. So I am in the process of straightening it, and ensuring the overcoil is level - as that part of the spring seems to be also rubbing on the cock. 

I am taking it very slowly, and dont have time again until the weekend, and watching videos that show others doing it.

Thanks for all the posts helping.

1317056294_balance2copy.thumb.JPG.4f43c10d2288d1a4a3cecfafe263637a.JPG

 

balance 1 copy.JPG

21 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Thanks...

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36 minutes ago, jpmort said:

The spring is rubbing slightly on the balance, and I suspect I might have done this when I disassembled

unfortunately in learning watch repair hairspring accidents happen a lot.

37 minutes ago, jpmort said:

I am taking it very slowly, and dont have time again until the weekend, and watching videos that show others doing it.

technically we also need a picture looking straight down at the balance wheel in the watch so we can see if the hairspring is centered. Because it looks like you're over coil isn't quite where it's supposed to be at least the ones that I typically see.

one of the problems you have with YouTube videos on lots of stuff is they make it look easy. This came up recently with someone having an issue with a mainspring they destroyed their mainspring while saying the videos made it look so simple.  so unfortunately the videos that make it look so simple give the impression that you can just watch a video and fix your hairspring isn't going to happen.

which you need to do is find something that's disposable and practice bending your hairspring. Practice bending it at the stud practice bending it up and down practice just bending it practice bending the stud out and then bending it back in just get a feel for what it feels like it takes time lots of time to be gutted hairsprings. Fixing over coils can take time lots of time I once spent hours of time fixing over coil because someone perceived that they were centering the hairspring and no they didn't do it right.

then from casual observance as they hairspring is bent up invisibly it no longer looks straight from the stud outward it just needs to be bent or pushed downwards a little bit. But you also look at the overall hairspring and see if the entire hairspring is pulled up because they hairspring is up rubbing on the bridge. So basically the casual observance is its bent at the stud and it goes upwards doesn't look like you bent they hairspring itself in the peculiar bend hopefully.

Then as I said it looks like the over coil in relationship the stud is in the wrong place know it's the stud is out too far I would draw you a picture of that but I really want to see the hairspring back in the watch. Then as far as fixing they hairspring at least the bending down that has to be done in the watch so you can see what you're doing providing you understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. The other of the over coil stud being out too far that will have to be done out of the watch at least that's the way I would typically do it.

But no matter what your the eyes in the field you have to look at it you have to make the decision where you think the bend is because pictures sometimes can be misleading. Then if you do make abandon it doesn't fix anything make sure you put it back because we don't want to make things worse. But I was still practice on something first.

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Based on your advice I have put aside the hairspring that I need to work on, to practice. I had another hairspring, from a gents wristwatch, and I have spent hours on it. The pictures show a progression of my learning, which is actually more like circular attempts to fix, worsen, and remedy. The more I try, the worse it seems to get sometimes.
So I now use a hard surface - a white ceramic tile. I had to purchase two new tweezers - Dumont, which made a huge difference.

I still find doing this with a loupe difficult.

The problem I am still not able to sort out is twisting. So still some more to work on.
 

spring1.JPG

spring2.JPG

spring3.JPG

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So, here's a question to those few who have likely ever encountered a h/s like the above: Is attempting to do anything with that worthwhile? Wouldn't it just make sense to try sourcing one?

With all of the kinks in that h/s will it ever really perform well enough to put back in a watch and say: "I've serviced this and it now represents my best efforts."

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2 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

So, here's a question to those few who have likely ever encountered a h/s like the above: Is attempting to do anything with that worthwhile? Wouldn't it just make sense to try sourcing one?

With all of the kinks in that h/s will it ever really perform well enough to put back in a watch and say: "I've serviced this and it now represents my best efforts."

what I was looking at the pictures this morning I was thinking about the same thing but I didn't want it display a negative attitude.

For those people that are really good at hairsprings I've seen them work miracles but at some point in time there's a limit of what you can do and I'm sure all the bending can disturb the hairspring

at one time used to be firms that you could send it out to and they would vibrate a new hairspring for you. The days when people had all they hairspring is necessary to do that now those services are gone apparently

the problem with sourcing a hairspring is it's an older watch sourcing hairsprings for older kids becomes very problematic especially depending upon how many were available in the first place. This means basically it have to buy a broken movement to steal a hairspring or better yet take the entire balance complete because they hairspring has been matched to the balance wheel or in this case the balance wheel matched of the hairspring. which means timing screws you have to play with the get the balance to match your new hairspring if you can find one at all.

 

 

 

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On 5/14/2022 at 11:21 AM, jpmort said:

Ah, well, I am learning how to service watches, having completed about 4 now. And finally the outcome is one I am happy about.

Good for you matey. Isnt that feeling just great 👍

On 5/23/2022 at 12:47 PM, Kalanag said:

Good watching but bloody awful music, i have to turn the sound off.

On 5/24/2022 at 11:32 AM, JohnR725 said:

unfortunately in learning watch repair hairspring accidents happen a lot.

technically we also need a picture looking straight down at the balance wheel in the watch so we can see if the hairspring is centered. Because it looks like you're over coil isn't quite where it's supposed to be at least the ones that I typically see.

one of the problems you have with YouTube videos on lots of stuff is they make it look easy. This came up recently with someone having an issue with a mainspring they destroyed their mainspring while saying the videos made it look so simple.  so unfortunately the videos that make it look so simple give the impression that you can just watch a video and fix your hairspring isn't going to happen.

which you need to do is find something that's disposable and practice bending your hairspring. Practice bending it at the stud practice bending it up and down practice just bending it practice bending the stud out and then bending it back in just get a feel for what it feels like it takes time lots of time to be gutted hairsprings. Fixing over coils can take time lots of time I once spent hours of time fixing over coil because someone perceived that they were centering the hairspring and no they didn't do it right.

then from casual observance as they hairspring is bent up invisibly it no longer looks straight from the stud outward it just needs to be bent or pushed downwards a little bit. But you also look at the overall hairspring and see if the entire hairspring is pulled up because they hairspring is up rubbing on the bridge. So basically the casual observance is its bent at the stud and it goes upwards doesn't look like you bent they hairspring itself in the peculiar bend hopefully.

Then as I said it looks like the over coil in relationship the stud is in the wrong place know it's the stud is out too far I would draw you a picture of that but I really want to see the hairspring back in the watch. Then as far as fixing they hairspring at least the bending down that has to be done in the watch so you can see what you're doing providing you understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. The other of the over coil stud being out too far that will have to be done out of the watch at least that's the way I would typically do it.

But no matter what your the eyes in the field you have to look at it you have to make the decision where you think the bend is because pictures sometimes can be misleading. Then if you do make abandon it doesn't fix anything make sure you put it back because we don't want to make things worse. But I was still practice on something first.

 

 

You make so much sense John. Trying to explain to a beginner how difficult some of this work really is, isnt easy. I think you do a good job of putting things into perspective for them and probably save a lot of damage to their watches in the process.

On 6/23/2022 at 2:36 PM, jpmort said:

Based on your advice I have put aside the hairspring that I need to work on, to practice. I had another hairspring, from a gents wristwatch, and I have spent hours on it. The pictures show a progression of my learning, which is actually more like circular attempts to fix, worsen, and remedy. The more I try, the worse it seems to get sometimes.
So I now use a hard surface - a white ceramic tile. I had to purchase two new tweezers - Dumont, which made a huge difference.

I still find doing this with a loupe difficult.

The problem I am still not able to sort out is twisting. So still some more to work on.
 

spring1.JPG

spring2.JPG

spring3.JPG

Just keep practising matey, now you know why JohnR725 suggested you practise on something scrap. You did well to listen 👍, some folk do not.

On 6/23/2022 at 7:00 PM, grsnovi said:

So, here's a question to those few who have likely ever encountered a h/s like the above: Is attempting to do anything with that worthwhile? Wouldn't it just make sense to try sourcing one?

With all of the kinks in that h/s will it ever really perform well enough to put back in a watch and say: "I've serviced this and it now represents my best efforts."

That was just jp's practise piece G. But besides this is what our amazing hobby is all about. Being able to do and being bloody good at it, not giving up at fixing something until the job is done or it has broken and gone beyond its repair. And at what point you decide to quit and move onto something else will dictate how good you will become and how determined you are to become the best you can be. I know i want that in myself and everyone else for that matter as well. 🙂

On 6/23/2022 at 7:06 PM, JohnR725 said:

what I was looking at the pictures this morning I was thinking about the same thing but I didn't want it display a negative attitude.

For those people that are really good at hairsprings I've seen them work miracles but at some point in time there's a limit of what you can do and I'm sure all the bending can disturb the hairspring

at one time used to be firms that you could send it out to and they would vibrate a new hairspring for you. The days when people had all they hairspring is necessary to do that now those services are gone apparently

the problem with sourcing a hairspring is it's an older watch sourcing hairsprings for older kids becomes very problematic especially depending upon how many were available in the first place. This means basically it have to buy a broken movement to steal a hairspring or better yet take the entire balance complete because they hairspring has been matched to the balance wheel or in this case the balance wheel matched of the hairspring. which means timing screws you have to play with the get the balance to match your new hairspring if you can find one at all.

 

 

 

Can i ask John, do you vibrate hairsprings ? this something i want to learn eventually. 

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2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

at what point you decide to quit and move onto something else

There are a couple of things I'm good at. At 68, I don't feel that I have to excel at everything I try and think I know when it's worth saying: enough is enough.

I'm also OK with determining that some projects are lost causes and it's perfectly ok to give up and move on to the next piece. After all, I'm not flipping my messes back onto eBay...

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1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

There are a couple of things I'm good at. At 68, I don't feel that I have to excel at everything I try and think I know when it's worth saying: enough is enough.

I'm also OK with determining that some projects are lost causes and it's perfectly ok to give up and move on to the next piece. After all, I'm not flipping my messes back onto eBay...

My messes don't go back on ebay either.  I see it as yes I might of f&^ked up but at least I'm saving someone else.

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8 hours ago, grsnovi said:

There are a couple of things I'm good at. At 68, I don't feel that I have to excel at everything I try and think I know when it's worth saying: enough is enough.

I'm also OK with determining that some projects are lost causes and it's perfectly ok to give up and move on to the next piece. After all, I'm not flipping my messes back onto eBay...

Absolutely G, I'm not knocking anyone that tries and of course there comes a point when you have to stop and know when any further tries are fruitless ( failure is not in my vocabulary ). But that comes hard for me to accept.  Some of my decendants were scotish so i grew up with the story of Robert the Bruce. I have always strived for excellence in everthing i do so i'm not able to give up without a fight. Not everyone is great at everthing we all have our strengths and we all have our  weaknesses. My strengths lie in not letting my weaknesses hold me back. Aim for the best version of yourself, like i said i want this in myself but i want everyone else to aim for that as well, thats whybi encourage folk whenever i getvthe opportunity.Thats the point i was making.

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I just want to ermind people that this is just a practice hairspring and I fully recognise when I am looking at this mangle of a mess of fine metal, that althought the shape hight improve, I am only looking to practice my technique before I attempt it on the Omega.

In answer to your post  @Neverenoughwatches, I only recently found out about vibrating hairsprings, and I have now put that into my list of things to look at in the future! I am certainly keen to learn more, and if I am able and wiling to go in that that direction. I am still deciding about hairsprings, and if I can get to the point where I can correct simply errors on them, then I will be content.

The time I am spending on the hairspring, is causing me to want to also go back to some of the regular and more straightforward work. So I can balance out the frustration!

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20 minutes ago, jpmort said:

I just want to ermind people that this is just a practice hairspring and I fully recognise when I am looking at this mangle of a mess of fine metal, that althought the shape hight improve, I am only looking to practice my technique before I attempt it on the Omega.

Absolutely the right thing to do jp, you will never go wrong with John's advice. I was just clarifying that for you earlier it seemed that fact maybe had been mistaken. Hairspring work is not easy and until its been attempted then that cant be truly appreciated. 

11 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

My messes don't go back on ebay either.  I see it as yes I might of f&^ked up but at least I'm saving someone else.

It also goes a long way into not ffing it up the next time Rich. If you dont try you wont ever learn or get better.  How you doin yorkshire buddy, Ok ?🙂

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29 minutes ago, jpmort said:

only recently found out about vibrating hairsprings, and I have now put that into my list of things to look at in the future! I am certainly keen to learn more, and if I am able and wiling to go in that that direction. I am still deciding about hairsprings, and if I can get to the point where I can correct simply errors on them, then I will be content.

The time I am spending on the hairspring, is causing me to want to also go back to some of the regular and more straightforward work. So I can balance out the frustration!

The hairspring vibrator is a very expensive tool, some way down the line for most. Sooooooo much more to learn before that. But good for you that you are thinking about it. So for your hs work you do need a lot of practice to become proficient at it. If you've only just started then you are jumping in at the deep end somewhat. Saying that it also depends on the person you are, we are all different and pick things up at different speeds. So you may be very well capable in a short time span. As example i was less than a month into the hobby and was manipulating and repinning hairsprings, mainly from necessity. It was a case of get it done so i could carry on the project. A couple of tips here may help you along.  You must be calm and relaxed, confident without being complacent.  If you let nerves creep in this will affect you greatly. Plenty of practise on scrap, and when it comes to the crunch of the actual project, try to forget its value but not if that makes sense (probably not). If you think about its value you may panic, if you dont think about its value you may not care. Its a fine balance to find. So to combat this the practise piece must be treated as the actual, try not to think "oh ffkk it, its only scrap". This way you will be doing the same decent job over and over and when you get to the Omega you will just do it. So depending on how much time you spend on the hobby, you could easily be a month away from the Omega. So dont rush onto it, even when you have the skill down, have a break from it and then go back and practise some more until there is no doubt in your mind that you are capable. 👍. Oh and also to keep in mind,  watch your hand shake at this magnification, a low blood sugar level will be much more apparent. 

5 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

You‘ve seen this video by T&T&T? (I know it‘s not the music you like)

https://youtu.be/Ye6i14NaWKI

Thanks Kalanag. Yes I've watched this a few times before. Haha and that music drives me bonkers lol.  I'm curious to know how accurate this is compared to a dedicated hs vibrator. 

11 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

You‘ve seen this video by T&T&T? (I know it‘s not the music you like)

https://youtu.be/Ye6i14NaWKI

I wonder if the point of holding and the height of stretched spring is taken into account.

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2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

…Yes I've watched this a few times before. Haha and that music drives me bonkers lol.  I'm curious to know how accurate this is compared to a dedicated hs vibrator…

I think it‘s just for checking wheater you are in the ballpark with the beat rate.

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@Neverenoughwatchesgreat advice thanks.

I have found that very thin tweekers and a hard white surface is essential. But would you suggest any tool or holder for a hairspring, that is useful when working on one? Sometimes my hand simply shakes the hairspring in various directions.

And I find that stretching the spring downwards can sometime help in observing it and its symmetry. What do you use?

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1 hour ago, jpmort said:

@Neverenoughwatchesgreat advice thanks.

I have found that very thin tweekers and a hard white surface is essential. But would you suggest any tool or holder for a hairspring, that is useful when working on one? Sometimes my hand simply shakes the hairspring in various directions.

And I find that stretching the spring downwards can sometime help in observing it and its symmetry. What do you use?

Some use a pair of these 90 degree bent for manipulation, i have tried them but find a little too big. I might dress them ond day . I normally use some very fine tweezers to hold the hs and a super fine oiler or a cut down 0.2 or 0.3 mm accupucture needle to gently press agaist them to straighten out an odd kink i may come across. And to work on either a sheet of clean white card or a sheet of white pvc  gives me clearer view of what i want to do.

16561868202951891092181401132884.jpg

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15 hours ago, Kalanag said:

You‘ve seen this video by T&T&T? (I know it‘s not the music you like)

https://youtu.be/Ye6i14NaWKI

I find the video hysterically funny in a way. It looks simple doesn't it? It's actually quite an amusing video.

what if you had a vibrating tool when it look as simple as this? Oh unfortunately in this next video he doesn't give the plans a way that's very sad I believe he sells the school and no I don't know how much it costs but once again look how simple it is

https://youtu.be/htckrH3ae54

now the reality is this would be a nice tool to have because notice it displays the beats per hour as opposed to looking at the master balance wheel in the platform which can be it interesting singular.

Oh and if you look at all of his stuff he's using an optical method if I remember right user picking up off one of the arms which is nice as you get rid of the sound aspect but companies like Greiner they make a really nice machine that none of us can afford that vibrates hairspring it might even do the terminal curve at the same time not sure about that there is a YouTube video that has that's of somebody really wants it all track it down for you

other interesting video in the news as reference to wostep at the very beginning of the video because at least at one time they afflicted pain and suffering on their students by teaching them how to vibrated hairsprings.

https://youtu.be/M5LEN66vxgc

now in this last video ever notice that the hairspring doesn't have a stud like the other videos. so here the student had to take the collet hairspring pins raw hairspring form of the terminal curve temporarily pin it to the collet. He has just temporary that's a school that likes to teach perfection C have to go back and do another step in unpin do some other complicated stuff was just skim over. The temporarily penned put it on the balance wheel you make sure it's centered and flat and then you can vibrate and notice he has some extra hairspring because you need at least one full turn at the top to do the other steps.

The reason I bring this up is the previous videos started with the hairspring it was already pretty darn close what if you hairspring is not close long did it take you to get that hairspring to look like the last video

then of course I'm the bearer of bad news in order to learn how to vibrated hairsprings you need hairsprings and we've discussed this before but I will remind you in a way the Swiss no longer make raw hairsprings. It used to be they made hairspring is with the CGS specification and they would send them out and companies variety people to buy raw hairspring is and of course you can vibrate them. But the Swiss have consolidated manufacturing why make a whole bunch of generic hairsprings when Dell just make the hairsprings you need. Or even better yet send your balance wheels to hairspring company and they will they hairsprings for you which is what they do. The consequences are those little packets of necessary raw hairsprings that the students like to go through it a huge quantity because it's not easy to get to the point of that one video and up damaging a lot while you're learning they no longer exist. Now is the bearer of bad news as much is one of vibrated hairspring probably isn't going to happen because you don't have any hairsprings the vibrate you could try looking at eBay if you're lucky you might find the packet or to look at

oh and of course the other videos with the stud those of already been vibrated so course it looks easy and simple because that's a finished product I know somebody who has a hairspring vibrating tool and he can never figure out why a comment that vibrated hairsprings is a total nightmare the pain in the ass to do because he's done that very thingies but the balance wheel then he puts in your the stud and markets vibrating about how close it is a different story for starting from scratch takes a long time to get to close to being vibrated

here's a website where he shares his fun of vibrating Springs

http://www.bobinchak.com/watchmaking/2017/4/26/hairspring-week-vibrating-the-hairspring

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The hairspring vibrator is a very expensive tool,

yes additional tool is expensive but there are as some of the video show other ways to do it the Microset timing machine has a accessory for vibrating hairsprings. One of the old paper tape machines had a holder for tweezers so you could get the to the balance wheel spinning it would no action move up and down these time went up and down a tap on the microphone so you'd use the timing machine to do it don't know how well it worked but that was accessory for the machine so there are some other ways to do it of course you still need hairsprings

7 hours ago, jpmort said:

But would you suggest any tool or holder for a hairspring, that is useful when working on one?

not what I was looking for but you might find it interesting

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/hairspring-vibrating-tool.html

okay found it can't buy it from here though but you can see what it is the other material houses should have this. If you raise your hairspring up with the glass in the center is for the collet so they hairspring reflash is a lot easier to see the hairspring that is when it's flat on something

https://www.amazon.com/HAIRSPRING-HOLDER-simple-spring-support/dp/B01NCN45S9

 

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