Seiko 5606 and Omega 625

[suomaf]

So the other day I was messing around with my 1975 Seiko 5606 Lordmatic and did something stupid when trying to regulate it. Not quite sure what I did as it will not deviate from 4.0 ms beat error no matter what I do. Any adjustments will only affect the ms per day. Anyway so I decided to strip it, clean and try to put it together again. So while doing that, the setting wheel level spring part number 812560 pinged off into the void. I found a pack of 5 on cousinsuk and got freaked out by the trustpilot reviews and backed off.

 

Is there anyway I can make the spring myself using some guitar wire? If so, is there any videos or literature I can look up on how to do it?

 

While stripping the movement, I would love to replace the mainspring too, can anyone suggest a place where I can get the mainspring part number 401560 and hopefully be able to pick up 2 mainsprings for Omega 625 1208 caliber at the same place. 

Thank you for helping out a noob

 

Edited May 10 by suomaf
spelling

[suomaf]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Amazing the way he untangled the entangled hairspring that was tangled to such an extent that the tangled hairspring that was so entangled eventually became untangled by the use of untangling tweezers that he used to take the tangle out of the tangled hairspring by untangling the hairspring that was so hopelessly entangled by tangles. Easy

Say that fast 5 times 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, suomaf said:

Say that fast 5 times 

I did and my words got tangled lol

[suomaf]

Good news and bad news.

So I took the balance wheel out over the weekend and I could not really not tell if the hairspring was coned, I assumed that it was. I fiddled with the hair spring for about 45 mins and put it back into the balance cock. It lives! But bad news I am back to square one. No matter what I do with the hairspring stud, the beat error stays the same. It is almost as if adjusting the stud has no effect on the roller jewel at all. I am waiting on a couple of new balance complete with stud wheels from ebay to see if that will help. At least the watch is not dead, it is fast 4-5 mins a day, but not dead.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, suomaf said:

No matter what I do with the hairspring stud, the beat error stays the same. It is almost as if adjusting the stud has no effect on the roller jewel

Can you show us a picture of the watch on whatever you using for timing machine so we can see what it looks like?

Then with no power on the watch in the balance wheel stopped look at one of the balance arms and moved the stud holder does the arm move?

[suomaf]

Hey John,

I am saving up to get a proper Timegrapher, so for the moment I am using the watch accuracy app on Android phones. I know this is not the right way to do it and there is minimal information I can glance from this. Until I get the actual timegrapher, this is the way for me.

I have not had problems with it before, in that I could regulate watches using it to get to 0.1 or 0.2 ms beat error and +/- 1 seconds per day. However with this 5606A movement, It seems as if I did something to the balance wheel and specifically the stud holder arm. I know that the stud holder arm is supposed to allow us to adjust the position of the roller jewel, but now it seems that it does not do it. Would a coned hairspring or a bent hair spring make it such that the roller jewel will always be stuck at a wrong position?

I cannot get it to budge from 4.0ms. The wheel is also sticky, once it gets started, it will go until the power runs out but it needs help with a blower.

So I took the wheel off the balance cock again and took some photos.

I suspect that the stud is not flat and off to an angle and now it seems also that the hairspring is slanted off to one side again.

Could this be the cause of me not being able to change the beat error?

Thanks!

Edited May 26 by suomaf
additional information

[Nucejoe]

 The coil looks OK its has not coned as I first suspected,  unbend the hairspring near the stud to level the coil, best be done when balance is installed on mainplate so you can check its levelness after each tweak. 

 

 

[suomaf]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 The coil looks OK its has not coned as I first suspected,  unbend the hairspring near the stud to level the coil, best be done when balance is installed on mainplate so you can check its levelness after each tweak. 

 

 

Thanks Joe,

 

I am guessing I am going to be doing this? 

 

Any tips or hints?

 

Thanks!

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, suomaf said:

Hey John,

I am saving up to get a proper Timegrapher, so for the moment I am using the watch accuracy app on Android phones. I know this is not the right way to do it and there is minimal information I can glance from this. Until I get the actual timegrapher, this is the way for me.

I have not had problems with it before, in that I could regulate watches using it to get to 0.1 or 0.2 ms beat error and +/- 1 seconds per day. However with this 5606A movement, It seems as if I did something to the balance wheel and specifically the stud holder arm. I know that the stud holder arm is supposed to allow us to adjust the position of the roller jewel, but now it seems that it does not do it. Would a coned hairspring or a bent hair spring make it such that the roller jewel will always be stuck at a wrong position?

I cannot get it to budge from 4.0ms. The wheel is also sticky, once it gets started, it will go until the power runs out but it needs help with a blower.

So I took the wheel off the balance cock again and took some photos.

I suspect that the stud is not flat and off to an angle and now it seems also that the hairspring is slanted off to one side again.

Could this be the cause of me not being able to change the beat error?

Thanks!

Eyup matey. How you doin ?. A few things to discuss here. As Nucejoe says the coil seems to look ok on its own with no coning. You say it looks slanted but looking  at the photo this maybe because the weight of the stud is pulling one side down. I think you need to foget your app for the adjustment, for the time being and just try a visual check that the stud arm can alter the beat error. You should be noticing that the balance wheel is moving, watch the position of a spoke of the wheel change. Or better still if you can sight down between the center of the escape wheel and the banking pins the impulse jewel should follow through as a straight line when the beat error is getting close. This is easier done without the train wheels installed. It is also good practice on vintage movements where there is no adjustment arm and the beat error has to be done with adjustment of the collet. When the watch is in beat the watch should start up with minimal wind providing everything else is ok. When there is a certain amount of beat error the balance generally requires some encouragement to get going and depending on other factors will also not want to continue if the error is very poor. Try a visual mate first then you can go from there. Technology is not always what we want it to be, we should rely on ourselves as well to see what is going on.

2 minutes ago, suomaf said:

Thanks Joe,

 

I am guessing I am going to be doing this? 

 

Any tips or hints?

 

Thanks!

 

No mate not yet. Make this a last resort when you ruled out everything else. HS manipulation is best to practise on something scrap first. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

unbend the hairspring near the stud to level the coil, best be done when balance is installed on mainplate so you can check its levelness after each tweak. 

My amusement is always that newbies remove their balance wheels and show us pictures and ask what the problem is. Well first problem is easy the balance wheel out of the watch doesn't have a problem the problem is in the watch. So the first problem is the balance wheel has to go back into the watch because that is where I was looking for specific things that I can't see if the balance wheel is out of the watch.

Which is also why have the quote above you can't really tell how it's bent especially at the stud unless you're in the watch because the stud is heavy it typically is being pulled down it makes the hairspring look out of flat which it may or may not be. If you are checking the balance wheel for flatness out of the watch you would place it in a true in caliper where you can spin it and you can look at specific things which you would probably never see anyway so it's best to put it back in the watch where the problem is a problem

 

that I still need a picture looking straight down but in the absence of that it did give me a clue about something with the picture you have so that works out. You have a four Arm balance wheel and The roller jewel is on the other side someplace probably in alignment with one of the arms which is really good for you. Because when you put it back into the watch with no power you can push on your stockholder and the arm which is closest to the pallet fork pivots jewel should move back and forth to visually put this watch in alignment you just need the push the stud holder until the arm providing that's where the roller jewel is in alignment with over the pivot for the pallet fork and you will be in alignment in other words you will be in beat versus trying to use your Which is a waste of time.

Oh other problem with your Is your running insanely fast could be a regulation issue or probably they hairspring is touching something it's not supposed.

49 minutes ago, suomaf said:

I am guessing I am going to be doing this?

Unless you have somebody else learning watch repair since you're the person doing it that means you're the person who has to fix the problem. But first you have to figure out what the problem is before you can fix its. Then working on hairspring is is something you need to practice with so ideally you should have some practice sheep watches that you're not trying to fix where you can practice bending the hairspring and learning how to bend it back. Typically practicing on a watch that you're trying to repair when you have no experience at all well hopefully get a balance complete but that also is a problem on vintage Seiko watches so you need to practice some place first

 

[suomaf]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

My amusement is always that newbies remove their balance wheels and show us pictures and ask what the problem is. Well first problem is easy the balance wheel out of the watch doesn't have a problem the problem is in the watch. So the first problem is the balance wheel has to go back into the watch because that is where I was looking for specific things that I can't see if the balance wheel is out of the watch.

Which is also why have the quote above you can't really tell how it's bent especially at the stud unless you're in the watch because the stud is heavy it typically is being pulled down it makes the hairspring look out of flat which it may or may not be. If you are checking the balance wheel for flatness out of the watch you would place it in a true in caliper where you can spin it and you can look at specific things which you would probably never see anyway so it's best to put it back in the watch where the problem is a problem

 

that I still need a picture looking straight down but in the absence of that it did give me a clue about something with the picture you have so that works out. You have a four Arm balance wheel and The roller jewel is on the other side someplace probably in alignment with one of the arms which is really good for you. Because when you put it back into the watch with no power you can push on your stockholder and the arm which is closest to the pallet fork pivots jewel should move back and forth to visually put this watch in alignment you just need the push the stud holder until the arm providing that's where the roller jewel is in alignment with over the pivot for the pallet fork and you will be in alignment in other words you will be in beat versus trying to use your Which is a waste of time.

Oh other problem with your Is your running insanely fast could be a regulation issue or probably they hairspring is touching something it's not supposed.

Unless you have somebody else learning watch repair since you're the person doing it that means you're the person who has to fix the problem. But first you have to figure out what the problem is before you can fix its. Then working on hairspring is is something you need to practice with so ideally you should have some practice sheep watches that you're not trying to fix where you can practice bending the hairspring and learning how to bend it back. Typically practicing on a watch that you're trying to repair when you have no experience at all well hopefully get a balance complete but that also is a problem on vintage Seiko watches so you need to practice some place first

 

Thank you John for your reply. I will have it back into the watch over the weekend and try to get the photos that you said.

 

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup matey. How you doin ?. A few things to discuss here. As Nucejoe says the coil seems to look ok on its own with no coning. You say it looks slanted but looking  at the photo this maybe because the weight of the stud is pulling one side down. I think you need to foget your app for the adjustment, for the time being and just try a visual check that the stud arm can alter the beat error. You should be noticing that the balance wheel is moving, watch the position of a spoke of the wheel change. Or better still if you can sight down between the center of the escape wheel and the banking pins the impulse jewel should follow through as a straight line when the beat error is getting close. This is easier done without the train wheels installed. It is also good practice on vintage movements where there is no adjustment arm and the beat error has to be done with adjustment of the collet. When the watch is in beat the watch should start up with minimal wind providing everything else is ok. When there is a certain amount of beat error the balance generally requires some encouragement to get going and depending on other factors will also not want to continue if the error is very poor. Try a visual mate first then you can go from there. Technology is not always what we want it to be, we should rely on ourselves as well to see what is going on.

No mate not yet. Make this a last resort when you ruled out everything else. HS manipulation is best to practise on something scrap first. 

@NeverenoughwatchesBeen doing ok, Thank you. Trying to sneak in some watch repair in the evenings after work. I will have the train off this weekend and put the balance and escape back on the plate. I think I understand that the visual check is what I need to do first.

 

Yeah I am dreading the HS stuff. I am waiting for the new old stock ones to arrive before I start with hair spring work.

[Nucejoe]

 We have already seen a side view of the coil when in the watch, I am guessing its slanted because of a bend NEAR THE SRUD.

 Best to have just the balance and cock back on the mainplate without any other part, this will maximize your access to the coil and view of it as well as no other part is there to block your view or access.

 Do not toucn the coil, its perfectly alright. Its slanted and you spot where the coil is closest to the wheel, then go 180 degrees to do some unbending ,  so  the slanted side rise to level up with the rest of the coils. In case it get  even more slanted  when you  unbend, you know you should do the undending in opposit direction of what you did before.

I know   !!!     a vid showing this would be very useful.

I didn't see the guy in the vid show a case like what has happened to the coil in your watch or he did and I missed it. 

Good luck pal.

[suomaf]

TLDR: Parts came, made some noob mistakes but got it up and running again. Thank you very much everyone.

---------------------------------------------

So a few updates. I tried straighten out the hairspring and made things worse. The shape it eventually ended up was a what not to do list. It is good practice I guess for the next few that I will mess up.

I had been waiting for 2 balance wheel completes because I knew it was a high possibility that that is what I would eventually need. They came in these plastic thingys that I had not encountered before. I tried to open one of them, my fat fingers slipped and Balance wheel 2 in the bin. 

Having been left with one, I tried to be very mindful of putting it back into the cock, and after much swearing and praying it seem to go back in fine. Putting the entire mechanism back on the empty plate gave me the ahhhh... moment, so that is how it is supposed to look and function.

With my package, I had also ordered a main spring coil, thinking since I am in here, might as swap that out. Color side facing out... the new spring went in fine, next the arbour and wouldn't you know it, the noob, me, had put it in upside down. Take it apart, pray, swear, and it was the right way up again.

Time for the full rebuild. Putting on the main plate was something that I would always struggle with, I think because of all the praying and probably swearing that I did with the main spring and the balance wheel, something got left over and the main plate went straight on all the needed pivots and it was good to go.

The rest of the rebuild went as well as expected. Screws and springs were launched into space and I am crawling on my knees trying to find them. I am now pretty much an expert at fashioning springs from guitar wires. and finally it lives!

I am waiting on the newly purchased timegrapher and stereo microscope to arrive so I can fall even deeper into the rabbit hole I dug for myself.

Thank you very much to everyone who helped me get this little sucker back up and running.

 

 

  

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, suomaf said:

TLDR: Parts came, made some noob mistakes but got it up and running again. Thank you very much everyone.

---------------------------------------------

So a few updates. I tried straighten out the hairspring and made things worse. The shape it eventually ended up was a what not to do list. It is good practice I guess for the next few that I will mess up.

I had been waiting for 2 balance wheel completes because I knew it was a high possibility that that is what I would eventually need. They came in these plastic thingys that I had not encountered before. I tried to open one of them, my fat fingers slipped and Balance wheel 2 in the bin. 

Having been left with one, I tried to be very mindful of putting it back into the cock, and after much swearing and praying it seem to go back in fine. Putting the entire mechanism back on the empty plate gave me the ahhhh... moment, so that is how it is supposed to look and function.

With my package, I had also ordered a main spring coil, thinking since I am in here, might as swap that out. Color side facing out... the new spring went in fine, next the arbour and wouldn't you know it, the noob, me, had put it in upside down. Take it apart, pray, swear, and it was the right way up again.

Time for the full rebuild. Putting on the main plate was something that I would always struggle with, I think because of all the praying and probably swearing that I did with the main spring and the balance wheel, something got left over and the main plate went straight on all the needed pivots and it was good to go.

The rest of the rebuild went as well as expected. Screws and springs were launched into space and I am crawling on my knees trying to find them. I am now pretty much an expert at fashioning springs from guitar wires. and finally it lives!

I am waiting on the newly purchased timegrapher and stereo microscope to arrive so I can fall even deeper into the rabbit hole I dug for myself.

Thank you very much to everyone who helped me get this little sucker back up and running.

 

 

  

Yey suomaf mate i am so pleased for you. You should be very proud of yourself and your dogged determination to see it through to a successful end result, well done matey. All your trials and tribulations to get you there, you should consider as worthy lessons well earned, hell I'm proud of you. I very much look forward to our future conversations, i can see you are one to stick with us and this amazing interest for years to come. Speak soon matey  

[suomaf]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Yey suomaf mate i am so pleased for you. You should be very proud of yourself and your dogged determination to see it through to a successful end result, well done matey. All your trials and tribulations to get you there, you should consider as worthy lessons well earned, hell I'm proud of you. I very much look forward to our future conversations, i can see you are one to stick with us and this amazing interest for years to come. Speak soon matey  

Thanks buddy. I am waiting for the microscope to get here for the omega adventure. That thing is 1.75 cm

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, suomaf said:

Thanks buddy. I am waiting for the microscope to get here for the omega adventure. That thing is 1.75 cm

You may need it for that one . A very worthwhile investment my friend. Your abilities will make leaps and bounds on its first use.

[gbyleveldt]

3 hours ago, suomaf said:

Thanks buddy. I am waiting for the microscope to get here for the omega adventure. That thing is 1.75 cm

Ouch, and I was complaining about the tiny 4205's I've been messing with.