Elgin pocket watch with rust, damaged balance pivot, broken balance jewel, broken cannon pinion, and broken main spring.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on an Elgin pocket watch, grade 417, size 3/0s, hunter case, year 1918.

When I took it apart and inspected each part under the microscope I realized about the following problems. (I am attaching pictures as well)

1. Hairspring is rusted. (Some screws as well)

2. One balance pivot is badly damaged.

3. One balance jewel (the one on the main plate) is broken.

4. The cannon pinion is badly damaged.

5. Mainspring completely destroyed.

Questions:

1. Is there a way I can get rid of the rust in the hairspring? I tried lighter fluid, but it did not work. Should I try to find a new hairspring?

2. Is there a way I could restore the damaged balance pivot? Or, should I look for a new balance staff, or should I replace the entire palance (balance wheel, staff, hairspring, etc.)

3. Where could I find the correct balance jewel (the one that goes on the mainplate)? What is the best approach to chang it?

4. Is there any solution for this cannon pinion at all? Or is it better not to waste time on it and find a new one?

Guys, so sorry for the many questions, I am learning from you a lot.

Tons of thanks in advance!!

[grsnovi]

Yikes! I wonder how that mainspring failed like that?

I'm also working on a couple of old Elgins. I would think that the easiest way to solve your issues would be to find a donor movement. I more closely examining my first grade 313, I've also detected damaged jewels and rust on the hairspring.

I'm going to follow this to see what the experts have to say.

[Daniel123]

2 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on an Elgin pocket watch, grade 417, size 3/0s, hunter case, year 1918.

When I took it apart and inspected each part under the microscope I realized about the following problems. (I am attaching pictures as well)

1. Hairspring is rusted. (Some screws as well)

2. One balance pivot is badly damaged.

3. One balance jewel (the one on the main plate) is broken.

4. The cannon pinion is badly damaged.

5. Mainspring completely destroyed.

Questions:

1. Is there a way I can get rid of the rust in the hairspring? I tried lighter fluid, but it did not work. Should I try to find a new hairspring?

2. Is there a way I could restore the damaged balance pivot? Or, should I look for a new balance staff, or should I replace the entire palance (balance wheel, staff, hairspring, etc.)

3. Where could I find the correct balance jewel (the one that goes on the mainplate)? What is the best approach to chang it?

4. Is there any solution for this cannon pinion at all? Or is it better not to waste time on it and find a new one?

Guys, so sorry for the many questions, I am learning from you a lot.

Tons of thanks in advance!!

Ahh the joy of old pocket watches, eBay will be the answer to most of your problems. That and time and Patience I have repaired jobs and I’ve waited years for parts to show up. Keep cleaning the hairspring you may get it clean, but I do sometimes see hairsprings come on sale. The main spring you should be able to buy from Cousins, the balance staff you will probably have to make yourself. Keep an eye out for donor watches on eBay you might find everything you need.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Yikes! I wonder how that mainspring failed like that?

I'm not sure if it has a technical term but basically it's a cascading failure. According to Elgin the reason why this occurs is because somebody touched the mainspring with their hands. The bad chemicals in your hand react with the steel and cause rust and that causes fractures and then the spring breaks. The other problem is the metallurgy may not a been the very best at the time the spring was made except? I've seen the exact same thing happen to a Rolex watch with a modern spring that was covered with rust. Athletic basically when I wound up nice and tight one coil just one place breaks and the break ripples right across the whole spring.

2 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

 

1. Is there a way I can get rid of the rust in the hairspring? I tried lighter fluid, but it did not work. Should I try to find a new hairspring?

2. Is there a way I could restore the damaged balance pivot? Or, should I look for a new balance staff, or should I replace the entire palance (balance wheel, staff, hairspring, etc.)

3. Where could I find the correct balance jewel (the one that goes on the mainplate)? What is the best approach to chang it?

4. Is there any solution for this cannon pinion at all? Or is it better not to waste time on it and find a new one?

Guys, so sorry for the many questions, I am learning from you a lot.

There are liquid rust removers some specifically designed for horology that will remove the rust. Typically there time-limited if you leave it into long it might turn all the steel parts blacked that's very undesirable. I think some people on this group recommend Coca-Cola because the acid in that is equivalent to the rust removing chemical and I think I've heard other people use strong tea As supposedly that will take rust off but I've never tried either. I have tried the liquid rust remover that I bought a long time ago and it did take the rust off. They hairspring doesn't look as bad as some I've seen if you do take the rust off the hairsprings been compromised so it won't be perfect but considering the rest of the watch study pretty good

can you get a new hairspring may be? Elgin hairsprings were premade but matchstick each balance wheel we can probably figure out which one it is and then you'll still have to match it. In other words even if we had the exact replacement you'll have to play with timing screws to get the balance to match the hairspring

For the balance wheel how much lathe work do you do? You could replace just the pivots if you're really skilled. Otherwise it replace the entire balance staff. Or if you a time machine you can go back in time I get a balance completes because we get a balance complete now you have to cannibalize something else to get it probably or if somebody sells you one off of eBay they've already cannibalize the watch for you. But on pocket watches swapping parts isn't necessarily what you want to do is a do not necessarily interchange.

For instance when you change the balance staff like for instance

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

If you go to the link above and enter in your number 417 we get a parts list with problems? Microphone off

Balance staff as you can see we get a part number and a warning note? Staff number 869 and something they don't have they refer you to something else? This is because there's almost always variations especially with Elgin staffs variations will be by pivots size always for almost every single staff and then the be other variations. Good news is the only have three different balance staffs just different pivots sizes. Apparently this watch came as either a single roller or a double roller in the staffs the same.

Then the balance jewel is sort of easy it's held in with two screws. Take the two screws out push it from the inside pushing out there is a end stone now come off separate and then the hole jewel. At the website above you can get a part number and of course with the part number you also need the size corresponding to the pivots size of your staff. If you had access to modern jeweling tools you to just smash out the hole jewel agreement out from modern jewel and put that in.

Then I really can't tell From the pictures how badly rusted the Canon pinion is it may just clean up in the same solution you can use with the hairspring.

Then you can try this place for your watch parts

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/index.html

22 minutes ago, Daniel123 said:

but I do sometimes see hairsprings come on sale. The main spring you should be able to buy from Cousins, the balance staff you will probably have to make yourself. Keep an eye out for donor watches on eBay you might find everything you need.

For mainsprings I usually get them for my local material house but everyone else said recommend eBay. You can usually always find American pocket watch mainsprings on eBay. Balance staff be purchased at the link above you may have to ask otherwise eBay would be a good source again.

It's amazing how much American material can be found on eBay in the US especially Elgin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I think some people on this group recommend Coca-Cola because the acid in that is equivalent to the rust removing chemical 

Hi John, 

 For all I know this hairspring is a goner, Coca-Cola wont work here. 

Regds

[NotAnotherWatch]

Luis, 

Thats a mess man!! If you can provide Elgin PN for the staff and mainspring,  ill see if I have them.  If so ill send them to you for the cost of postage.  The other i'm afaid i camt be of much help......

John

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Thank you so much guys for being so caring. I'll try to go as far as I can in repairing it by solving one problem at a time. I would like to focus on the balance and see if I can make it to be in good shape agan jjj. Then, solve the next problem. I know the hairspring is very bad, I'll try the coke and see what happens, any ways it won't go any worse jjj.

Many thanks to NoAnotherWatch for offering to provide some parts. NoAnotherWatch I am very new on this field, I don't know what "PN" means. Is it "Part Number"? 

Many thanks to John as well for the prompt rrsponse and the many ideas to work around each problem. Unfortunately I've never worked on a lathe, I've seen many videos of people actualy making balance staffs, but I ve never had a lathe. I think finding the staff will be the best approach for me now. Even though, in the future I would love to tinker with a lathe jjj, and see if I can actually do some of the crazy stuff some of you guys do.

Many thanks to Daniel123 for super quick rrsponse and for encouraging me not to give up on these beautiful timepieces.

Many many thanks to anybody else that contributes with ideas and solutions.

I'll keep you posted on this journey to bring this Elgin back to life. 

[NotAnotherWatch]

Luis, Yes the PN is part number...  Do you mind posting the seriel number of the Elgin???

John

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Absolutely, 

Serial # 20380125

Thanks a lot John

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Serial # 20380125

If you look at the website up above you can get the part numbers for all the stuff you need. You do need for the balance staff and the jewel you need the pivots size so ideally should measure the other pivot that's hopefully still good on the watch. Ideally a micrometer would be better than a veneer caliper. So what that you get the staff number and the balance jewel number

the mainspring was on the list and included the size. So is typical with American pocket watch parts you sometimes need additional numbers not just a part number. As I pointed out the staff needs the pivots size, the balance jewel needs the hole size for the pivot and the mainspring needs the thickness which Elgin nicely gives you on the list.

The other place you can sometimes get the parts list if you go to pocket watch database because someone gave you the serial number like here

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/20380125

The only problem with looking up the part numbers found on the pocketwatch database is that slacking the notes found on the bottom of the page. Which doesn't have any effect on this particular balance staff but often times there will be notes referring to certain serial numbers things change and sometimes those notes are important they're missing in the pocketwatch database

4 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Then, solve the next problem. I know the hairspring is very bad, I'll try the coke and see what happens, any ways it won't go any worse

I agree as you're new to watch repair there's nothing to be lost in trying ideas. It's hard to tell really how bad that hairspring is normally with a hairspring any rust is bad but how bad is bad really and if you need to learn it's good to learn on something that if it gets damaged or an accident happens it's not going to be a total loss as this is is a priceless heirloom you're working on you to practice on it.

 

[Daniel123]

4 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Absolutely, 

Serial # 20380125

Thanks a lot John

That’s a lovely pocket watch, I’m always jealous of the American movements as it’s so much easier to find parts. My collection of English and Swiss movements are such a pain to find parts. A very old watchmaker once told me to wear even my broken pocket watches and if anyone asks the time just look surprised and remark ‘oh it must have stopped’

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Hi JohnR725,

Yes, it sounds like a plan. I will take the balance staff out, measure the healthy pivot and try to order the staff and balance jewel based on the pivot diameter. I don't have a micrometer, but I know a couple people who probably have one. Hopefully with the parts number and pivot diameter I can find  both parts (staff and jewel) on daveswatchparts or ebay. I will also try to clean the hairspring once I get it out of the balance.

This is the biggest challenge so far for me, but I am up for it!!

Thanks a lot again to all of you guys who have taken from your precious time to teach a neophyte like me.

I'll keep you posted every time I reach a milestone on this timepiece.

[grsnovi]

Greetings @Luismartinezdecuba, your watch is a grade 417. I just checked my collection of Elgin stuff and I only have parts from grades 313, 409, 320, 355 and 45 so, I don't have anything here that might help you as far as parts go. Sorry.

I think you are on the right track!

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Thank you anyways grsnovi for taking the time in trying to help me. I appreciate it

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:47 PM, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on an Elgin pocket watch, grade 417, size 3/0s, hunter case, year 1918.

When I took it apart and inspected each part under the microscope I realized about the following problems. (I am attaching pictures as well)

1. Hairspring is rusted. (Some screws as well)

2. One balance pivot is badly damaged.

3. One balance jewel (the one on the main plate) is broken.

4. The cannon pinion is badly damaged.

5. Mainspring completely destroyed.

Questions:

1. Is there a way I can get rid of the rust in the hairspring? I tried lighter fluid, but it did not work. Should I try to find a new hairspring?

2. Is there a way I could restore the damaged balance pivot? Or, should I look for a new balance staff, or should I replace the entire palance (balance wheel, staff, hairspring, etc.)

3. Where could I find the correct balance jewel (the one that goes on the mainplate)? What is the best approach to chang it?

4. Is there any solution for this cannon pinion at all? Or is it better not to waste time on it and find a new one?

Guys, so sorry for the many questions, I am learning from you a lot.

Tons of thanks in advance!!

On 4/25/2022 at 7:47 PM, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on an Elgin pocket watch, grade 417, size 3/0s, hunter case, year 1918.

When I took it apart and inspected each part under the microscope I realized about the following problems. (I am attaching pictures as well)

1. Hairspring is rusted. (Some screws as well)

2. One balance pivot is badly damaged.

3. One balance jewel (the one on the main plate) is broken.

4. The cannon pinion is badly damaged.

5. Mainspring completely destroyed.

Questions:

1. Is there a way I can get rid of the rust in the hairspring? I tried lighter fluid, but it did not work. Should I try to find a new hairspring?

2. Is there a way I could restore the damaged balance pivot? Or, should I look for a new balance staff, or should I replace the entire palance (balance wheel, staff, hairspring, etc.)

3. Where could I find the correct balance jewel (the one that goes on the mainplate)? What is the best approach to chang it?

4. Is there any solution for this cannon pinion at all? Or is it better not to waste time on it and find a new one?

Guys, so sorry for the many questions, I am learning from you a lot.

Tons of thanks in advance!!

One step at a time Luis. 1. Some rust removers are lethal so be care , I've had parts practically dissolve over night in some products. You tried lighter fluid but for how long, and was a cleaning machine involved? 2. If you are a beginner then a balance repivot is probably beyond you, and you would need a lathe anyway or at the very minimum a dedicated repivot tool. Either way you will need a fair amount of skill and practise. A full Balance staff replacement still a tricky job for a beginner and also a staking tool and set required. So really a balance complete woud be ideal at your stage if you can get one. 3. If you can get a replacement for the mainplate  jewel then an easy swop over. 4. The cannon has a gouge ? . If you can clean off the rust then possibly  ok. I have used distilled vinegar in the past and it worked OK, but bere in mind it's around 90% water, make sure its thoroughly dry and quickly after a short soak . I have done longer soaks for casebacks worked well but make SURE dried very well. 5. Mainspring, do you have a miniture welder and grinder to hand . Aquire the size and match it up with one from cousins. A donor maybe your best option, but bere  in mind it could have the same faults. Make sure you ask the seller for good clear macro photos of the movement. You won't see everything but sometimes things flag up and tell you a no no.

18 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Thank you so much guys for being so caring. I'll try to go as far as I can in repairing it by solving one problem at a time. I would like to focus on the balance and see if I can make it to be in good shape agan jjj. Then, solve the next problem. I know the hairspring is very bad, I'll try the coke and see what happens, any ways it won't go any worse jjj.

Many thanks to NoAnotherWatch for offering to provide some parts. NoAnotherWatch I am very new on this field, I don't know what "PN" means. Is it "Part Number"? 

Many thanks to John as well for the prompt rrsponse and the many ideas to work around each problem. Unfortunately I've never worked on a lathe, I've seen many videos of people actualy making balance staffs, but I ve never had a lathe. I think finding the staff will be the best approach for me now. Even though, in the future I would love to tinker with a lathe jjj, and see if I can actually do some of the crazy stuff some of you guys do.

Many thanks to Daniel123 for super quick rrsponse and for encouraging me not to give up on these beautiful timepieces.

Many many thanks to anybody else that contributes with ideas and solutions.

I'll keep you posted on this journey to bring this Elgin back to life. 

Mate remember  that coke is full of sugar. The hairspring is going to get into a real sticky mess. You will need to find something to clean that out from the coils afterwards. 

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Thanks for your reply Neverenoughwatches,

I am a beginner indeed, repivoting a staff is way beyond my skills at this point. I not even know how to work with a lathe, but I would love to learn. I've seen videos of people doing marvelous things on a lathe. I do have a staking tool and I've taken some balance complete apart and assembled them back (hairspring and roller table). I haven't removed the staff from the balance wheel on any case yet, this will be the first time I mount a staff on a balance wheel. I am reading and watching many materials about assembling a balance complete.

The cannon pinion has literally a hole and some cracks jjj. It's in a very bad shape.

And of course the mainspring needs a replacement jjj. But I would like to tackle one problem at a time. Since the balance is the most critical part, and without it working properly there is no point in moving forward, I want to focus attention on getting it up and running again. Then, I will move onto the next problem .

I had not thought about the sugar in the coke, excellent point. Maybe after the coke I could place the hairspring in ligther fluid and finally in 99% isopropyl alcohol. Unfortunately I don't have a cleaning machine, I have to do all the cleaning by hand with a hairbrush.

Thank you so much Neverenoughwatches for your feedback on this thread.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Thanks for your reply Neverenoughwatches,

I am a beginner indeed, repivoting a staff is way beyond my skills at this point. I not even know how to work with a lathe, but I would love to learn. I've seen videos of people doing marvelous things on a lathe. I do have a staking tool and I've taken some balance complete apart and assembled them back (hairspring and roller table). I haven't removed the staff from the balance wheel on any case yet, this will be the first time I mount a staff on a balance wheel. I am reading and watching many materials about assembling a balance complete.

The cannon pinion has literally a hole and some cracks jjj. It's in a very bad shape.

And of course the mainspring needs a replacement jjj. But I would like to tackle one problem at a time. Since the balance is the most critical part, and without it working properly there is no point in moving forward, I want to focus attention on getting it up and running again. Then, I will move onto the next problem .

I had not thought about the sugar in the coke, excellent point. Maybe after the coke I could place the hairspring in ligther fluid and finally in 99% isopropyl alcohol. Unfortunately I don't have a cleaning machine, I have to do all the cleaning by hand with a hairbrush.

Thank you so much Neverenoughwatches for your feedback on this thread.

It is the phosphoric and citric acid in the coke that dissolves the rust. And people drink this stuff try something else without the sugar first.it might save you a stick mess. Lemon juice, although I've not tried it on watch parts. I don't think I would try vinegar either to be honest, other parts yes. But the hairspring  is far too delicate and introducing any thing that has a water content is going to be risky. Try soaking in naptha for longer maybe overnight and then gently agitate the fluid over the the complete  balance with a puffer. Before moving on to anything else. If money isn't  an issue then possibly an amoniated watch cleaning product. If you are staying in the hobby look for a reasonably  priced sonic cleaner, I think worth their weight in gold. If the rust has got too deep a sonic cleaner would confirm that anyway and leave you with a damaged part that wasn't  worth keeping in the first place. Ie. Rust was holding it together. Many years ago in the UK we had cars like this held together  by rust . It keep us very busy with body filler on weekends.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

It sounds good, I'll try leaving the hairspring in naptha longer and see if rust goes away. If not, I'll try other cleaners. 

Thank you Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

It sounds good, I'll try leaving the hairspring in naptha longer and see if rust goes away. If not, I'll try other cleaners. 

Thank you Neverenoughwatches

I'm in hope for you. On the third coil in the rust looks fairly intensive. When you think the hairspring  is around half the thickness of a human hair, condensation and the dreaded iron oxide  will quickly eat through . 

[NotAnotherWatch]

Luis, thanks for the seriel #.  I'll do some digging when I get in this evening and let.i know what I come up with...

John

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Thank you very much John, I really appreciate your help.

I'll have the hairspring in naptha for at least 24 hours and then see if it cleans (I'll take some pictures through the and post it here after the naptha bath jjj). I am also trying to get a micrometer to find out the right pivot diameter.

I can't thank you enough guys.

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Here is my progression so far, I attached some pictures. 

You'll see in one of the pictures I measured with a regular caliper. It gave me 0.10 for the staff pivot, but I will find a micrometer to get more accurate diameter.

Ive3taken roller tables and hairsprings out of the balance before, but this is the first time I take the staff out of the balance wheel. And, in doing so I placed the staff in a too tight hole on the staking tool, and it got stocked in it . I had to turn the staking tool and use a pusher to get it out. Unfortunately one side of the staff broke, but fortunately it wasn't the one with good pivot (as you'll see in the pics uffff). I knew I had to move one hole back on the staking tool once I found the one that makes the staff fit tight, but I dont3know what happened honestly. At least I didn't brake anything that wasn't already broken jjjj. I have a lot to learn, be patient with me please jjj.

Whatever you see I'm doing wrong on the pics, please let me know. I am learning from you a lot.

Ahhh, hairspring in naptha, I'll leave it there for at least 24h

https://youtu.be/vIQvAm4GC5U

This is one of the videos I've watched about changing a balance staff (one of my favorite)

[grsnovi]

Hopefully you're having fun and learning. I suspect that I would have thrown up my hands on this one by now!  

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Luismartinezdecuba said:

Here is my progression so far, I attached some pictures. 

You'll see in one of the pictures I measured with a regular caliper. It gave me 0.10 for the staff pivot, but I will find a micrometer to get more accurate diameter.

Ive3taken roller tables and hairsprings out of the balance before, but this is the first time I take the staff out of the balance wheel. And, in doing so I placed the staff in a too tight hole on the staking tool, and it got stocked in it . I had to turn the staking tool and use a pusher to get it out. Unfortunately one side of the staff broke, but fortunately it wasn't the one with good pivot (as you'll see in the pics uffff). I knew I had to move one hole back on the staking tool once I found the one that makes the staff fit tight, but I dont3know what happened honestly. At least I didn't brake anything that wasn't already broken jjjj. I have a lot to learn, be patient with me please jjj.

Whatever you see I'm doing wrong on the pics, please let me know. I am learning from you a lot.

Ahhh, hairspring in naptha, I'll leave it there for at least 24h

https://youtu.be/vIQvAm4GC5U

This is one of the videos I've watched about changing a balance staff (one of my favorite)

Aw mate just a bit of bad luck there. You are at least having ago which is what it's all about. This is the only way you will truly  learn and get better and better. Don't let it frustrate you. Try and try again as they say  . The hairspring  is not coming clean at all is it, naptha is only something of a degreaser really, but it was worth a try. I think you are going to have to step the de rusting process up a level. I've tried a few things to remove rust, but not on anything as delicate as a hairspring. I don't want to tell you might be wasting your time because I hate to give up on anything and admit defeat. I can tell you not to try Rustins rust remover because that is very aggressive.  Vinegar, lemon juice maybe ? WD40 rust eater is apparently good, personally I don't like to recommend anything I haven't  tried. Try asking some of the pros they may have  a hopeful answer for you.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Luismartinezdecuba]

Thanks for your support guys, I will examine the hairspring under the today evening when I come home from work, and post some pictures again to see if there is any improvement. If not, I will take a step forward on the derusting process, and use some more aggressive stuff jjj. In the worst case scenario I will need to find a balance complete. I already have the numbers for all the parts, including balance complete, thanks to grsnovi who searched them all for me. Thanks friends.