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Hi VW  I think the tube that is being refered to is the extension of the second hand that fits over the shaft and as mentioned, and is when pressed on below the level of the minute hand.  This renders any lifting tool useless as it cannot reach the "tube" bottom for a straight lift of the second hand alone. My own method and that used by many, is using a poly bag over the hands get the levers under the hour hand and lift. Never had a problem but thats not to say even with this method a badly rivited "tube" wouldn't be detached on lifting.

 

Hi VW  I think the tube that is being refered to is the extension of the second hand that fits over the shaft and as mentioned, and is when pressed on below the level of the minute hand.  This renders any lifting tool useless as it cannot reach the "tube" bottom for a straight lift of the second hand alone. My own method and that used by many, is using a poly bag over the hands get the levers under the hour hand and lift. Never had a problem but thats not to say even with this method a badly rivited "tube" wouldn't be detached on lifting.

 

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1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

So, is this something chronograph specific? 🤔 What is "tube"? Help me out please!

Eyup matey, glad to see you better. Paul is referring to the tube on the backside of a second hand. Apparently this hand is super tight on a tag heuer, when he lifted the hand off with hand levers it sounds like the tube disconnected from the rest of the seconds hand and was left on its post ( seconds hand pivot ) that is my understanding of that situation. 

23 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi VW  I think the tube that is being refered to is the extension of the second hand that fits over the shaft and as mentioned, and is when pressed on below the level of the minute hand.  This renders any lifting tool useless as it cannot reach the "tube" bottom for a straight lift of the second hand alone. My own method and that used by many, is using a poly bag over the hands get the levers under the hour hand and lift. Never had a problem but thats not to say even with this method a badly rivited "tube" wouldn't be detached on lifting.

 

Hi VW  I think the tube that is being refered to is the extension of the second hand that fits over the shaft and as mentioned, and is when pressed on below the level of the minute hand.  This renders any lifting tool useless as it cannot reach the "tube" bottom for a straight lift of the second hand alone. My own method and that used by many, is using a poly bag over the hands get the levers under the hour hand and lift. Never had a problem but thats not to say even with this method a badly rivited "tube" wouldn't be detached on lifting.

 

That was how i understood it WW. As you say most of us lift all 3 hands together, it could have been a sub hand but even so i still  don't see how a specific tool would avoid leaving the tubd behind either. Maye paul can elaborate on this tool we are talking about. 

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Hey, thanks for your replies guys! Crystal clear!

I think I read about this "tube"-problem on a Poljot 3133 (I believe) chronograph here on WRT (a service walkthrough or in that context by @Endeavor). Too tired and exhausted (from my infection) to look for it now.

Anyway, so not chronograph specific, and luckily not something I have yet experienced myself. Hand levers, a piece of plastic over the dial, and being gentle while prying is also my method. It has worked perfectly so far and is much better than any specific tool (presto) I've tried, but I'm always open-minded about new tools and enjoy good tools almost as much as watches.

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What happend with the TAG center seconds hand was that because the flange on the type/pipe that seconds hand sits on is smaller than the hole in the minute hand when you use levers you are effectively pushing the hour hand upto the minute hand then pushes on the seconds hand, on others I have worked on the minute hand pushes on the flange of the tube/pipe but because on the TAG the flange diameter is smaller than the hole in the minute hand, said hand pushes directly on the second hand pushing it off the tube/pipe, not totally sure what the correct name for the tube/pipe is being a beginner but it's the tube that the seconds hand it attached that fits over the seconds pinion, which resulted in the hands coming off and leaving the tube/pipe attached to the seconds pinion.

It was my understanding that the smallest of the lift tools supplied in the kit above was small enough to fit and lift using the smaller flange used by TAG etc on their seconds hand tube/pipe.

Well that's what I was hoping 😉 

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15 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

What happend with the TAG center seconds hand was that because the flange on the type/pipe that seconds hand sits on is smaller than the hole in the minute hand when you use levers you are effectively pushing the hour hand upto the minute hand then pushes on the seconds hand, on others I have worked on the minute hand pushes on the flange of the tube/pipe but because on the TAG the flange diameter is smaller than the hole in the minute hand, said hand pushes directly on the second hand pushing it off the tube/pipe, not totally sure what the correct name for the tube/pipe is being a beginner but it's the tube that the seconds hand it attached that fits over the seconds pinion, which resulted in the hands coming off and leaving the tube/pipe attached to the seconds pinion.

It was my understanding that the smallest of the lift tools supplied in the kit above was small enough to fit and lift using the smaller flange used by TAG etc on their seconds hand tube/pipe.

Well that's what I was hoping 😉 

The use of the word hand/hands in this very detailed explanation that our paul seemingly used to vindicate himself with totalled 13. Which i think deserves a round of 👏 applause . ( I wee take ) 🙃

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3 hours ago, Paul80 said:

It was my understanding that the smallest of the lift tools supplied in the kit above was small enough to fit and lift using the smaller flange used by TAG etc on their seconds hand tube/pipe.

Well that's what I was hoping 😉 

I thought that the purpose of the tool was for the pin to push out the pivot, while supporting the underside of the watch hands. Meaning that the flange of the tool is (slightly) raising/pulling the hand vertically axially (up to the maximum of the end shake of the wheel the hand is attached to), and the pin then is lowered to push out the pivot. I would imagine just pushing out the pivot by 0.01mm (less than the endshake) would be enough to remove the whole hand from the pivot.
 

Maybe @Mark could shed some light on how this tool prevents detachment of the pipe from the hand?

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I think the rivet holding the hand to the tube was loose. The hand would have come off regardless of the tool used. This hand remover pushes the pivot out of the tube, reducing the risk of the pivot breaking off or bending.

If the hole in the chrono hand is not enlarged, it might be possible to refit the hand and expand back the rivet to hold it.

Watch this video on how a hand tube is made.

I just thought of something... not all hand tubes have a hole on top. If you use a pusher like this on a tube with no hole or use a pin that is bigger than the hole, you'll end up pushing the tube out of the hand.

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22 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The use of the word hand/hands in this very detailed explanation that our paul seemingly used to vindicate himself with totalled 13. Which i think deserves a round of 👏 applause . ( I wee take ) 🙃

Who said anything about trying to vindicate myself, a question was asked I tried to answer that was all FFS man what is wrong with you tonight.

Look I broke something taking it apart it cost me a small fortune to put it right and I was trying to explain what I did wrong to help others, this appears to be wrong.

Shan't bother again.  

Goodbye.

Mark can you lock this thread as I will not be adding any more of my Chinese tools .

Thanks

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Who said anything about trying to vindicate myself, a question was asked I tried to answer that was all FFS man what is wrong with you tonight.

Look I broke something taking it apart it cost me a small fortune to put it right and I was trying to explain what I did wrong to help others, this appears to be wrong.

Shan't bother again.  

Goodbye.

Mark can you lock this thread as I will not be adding any more of my Chinese tools .

Thanks

 

 

 

Chill out mate, it was a joke. You know to make someone laugh geeez. Some folk are sooo touchy. For heaven's sake here 🏳

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34 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Look I broke something taking it apart it cost me a small fortune to put it right and I was trying to explain what I did wrong to help others, this appears to be wrong.

Hey Paul! Your posts are appreciated and I'd hate to see you go! I'm sure @Neverenoughwatches didn't mean any harm or was trying to degrade you. Perhaps he was just a bit clumsy. Now guys, shake hands and be friends! 🙏

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6 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I'm sure @Neverenoughwatches didn't mean any harm or was trying to degrade you.

Absolutely not Paul, you know very well that i value your info.  I was just having a silly hour, you should know me by now. If it makes you feel any better i will bend over and you can stick my white flag where the sun don't shine. Now come on mate thats funny.

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Here we have an interesting discussion regarding the use of a particular tool and a problem encountered when removing a set of hands. The same has happened to me but not on an expensive watch so did not cost an arm and a leg. I understand Paul80's concern and passing on the information so as to help others doing the same thing or be aware of the fact it can happen and its possible prevention by using a particular tool.  Dissemination of information is essential in any forum, cheers for that Paul80.

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23 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I think the rivet holding the hand to the tube was loose. The hand would have come off regardless of the tool used.

Actually, @Mark has mentioned before that some chronograph seconds hands are fitted extra tight into the pivot, which makes sense due to the extremely large rotational forces that the central chronograph seconds hand faces when reset. These hands can be almost impossible to remove without damaging the tube, and some manufacturers consider these hands one use only. Which is why I was wondering if the tool I mentioned would be able to circumvent this…

 

6 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Look I broke something taking it apart it cost me a small fortune to put it right and I was trying to explain what I did wrong to help others, this appears to be wrong?

@Paul80 your posts in this thread are much appreciated, and I think there has been some misunderstanding here between you, and @Neverenoughwatches’s peculiar sense of humour. Please don’t go. 

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Some chrono hands have a tubes that are slightly flattened, like a D shape. The pivots correspond. 

My mentor warned me about these. He said a mental note has to be taken as to which hand came from which position, or it might be impossible to zero the hands when resetting.

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2 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Actually, @Mark has mentioned before that some chronograph seconds hands are fitted extra tight into the pivot, which makes sense due to the extremely large rotational forces that the central chronograph seconds hand faces when reset. These hands can be almost impossible to remove without damaging the tube, and some manufacturers consider these hands one use only. Which is why I was wondering if the tool I mentioned would be able to circumvent this…

 

@Paul80 your posts in this thread are much appreciated, and I think there has been some misunderstanding here between you, and @Neverenoughwatches’s peculiar sense of humour. Please don’t go. 

👍Paul come on mate i apologise, i was just acting like a tool . You know i do this sometimes.  I used a poor choice of words. This is a cracking thread you started, ive used its recommendations to buy in the past.  🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳. Its really bugging me to think ive upset you 🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳🏳

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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I have one of these cheap Chinese hand setters that I bought last year.  Quit using it almost the day it arrived because the bushing is a sloppy fit to the press.  I bought a set of hand hand-setter and have been using them ever since.

So, fast forward...working on an Elgin 539 with a sweep-second wheel that is press fit on the third-wheel pivot, I realized how important it is to get direct vertical pressure on the wheel when installing.

I decided to revisit the Chinese press.  Here you can see that I have replaced the metal bushing with a plastic (really PLA) one that I 3d printed.  It is very solid now.  Maybe I will start using it again.

2022-09-28 07_21_45-20220928_071837.jpg ‎- Photos.png

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1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have one of these cheap Chinese hand setters that I bought last year.  Quit using it almost the day it arrived because the bushing is a sloppy fit to the press.

I decided to invest in the Horotec original hand setter and it has been working perfectly. Worth the money IMO.

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I realized how important it is to get direct vertical pressure on the wheel when installing

I came to the same conclusion and that's why I decided to pull the trigger. It is very difficult to be absolutely vertical using manual hand fitting tools. Doing it with the Horotec makes the process quite painless.

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4 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have one of these cheap Chinese hand setters that I bought last year.  Quit using it almost the day it arrived because the bushing is a sloppy fit to the press.  I bought a set of hand hand-setter and have been using them ever since.

So, fast forward...working on an Elgin 539 with a sweep-second wheel that is press fit on the third-wheel pivot, I realized how important it is to get direct vertical pressure on the wheel when installing.

I decided to revisit the Chinese press.  Here you can see that I have replaced the metal bushing with a plastic (really PLA) one that I 3d printed.  It is very solid now.  Maybe I will start using it again.

2022-09-28 07_21_45-20220928_071837.jpg ‎- Photos.png

I will have to try the 3d printed bushing, thanks for the idea. I too did the same process as you - received, tried once, was terribly sloppy. I tightened up the bushing but the push rod is still very loose. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
32 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Has anyone come across a cheap alternative to the Horotec/Bergeon crown extractor? I can't seem to find one on Aliexpress but I may just not be able to find it.

I wasn't even aware there was such a tool so thanks for sharing! The only tool I've seen for this purpose is a presto tool as seen in the below picture.

image.png.b3be6512a07987fda6a439b95a12b54f.png
Bergeon 4344.9 - "Presto" Tools

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  • 2 weeks later...

A few AliX vendors have this clone Horia tool.  Besides the jeweling anvil pump set it comes with a set of handsetting attachments. 
Has anyone used one of these?

7DD22A8D-E526-40CD-8105-5DBAF5A6858F.jpeg.df4992adbae16c894c73f479050f46cf.jpeg

AliX 11.11 sale is on so I just ordered the 1A version of these clone automatic oilers. 25 USD. 41581613-F94C-4C01-9D67-3A380A4599A6.jpeg.e764238a5830016b93cc0dd5a3864e6a.jpeg

 

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I am sure the auto oilers are not clones but from the same factory Bergeon use for theirs.

Not only do they look identical in every way but the parts are fully interchangable, which is handy should you ever need a new needle as the Bergeon one is actually marginally cheaper than the AliExpress one once postage is added and a lot quicker to arrive.

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