Here's An Obvious Military Ww2 Fake For You

[WillFly]

During one of my periodic trawls through the eBay of Biscay, I came across this little beauty.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW2-British-Military-Cortebert-ATP-Wristwatch-/111664434866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19ffb80eb2

 

If you look at the photo of the outer case back, you'll see the most disgusting attempt to mark the watch with the military pheon (broad arrow), ATP and serial number.

 

Compare it with my Unitas ATP case back:

 

http://www.willswatchpages.com/unitas-173.html

 

As the old saying goes: "Caveat emptor" - let the buyer beware!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[clockwatcher]

The 'Emptor' would have to be a few cogs short of a movement to be taken in by that appalling bodge - much like the perpetrator! How unsubtle can you get?

[ro63rto]

Looks like he did that with a hammer and nail. Aweful attempt.

[Blacklab]

I have the same watch Will but this one is genuine, it was owned by my uncle who was evacuated wounded at Dunkirk:

 

Edited May 16, 2015 by Blacklab

[Geo]

Has anyone reported it to eBay as being a fake?

[clockboy]

Didn't know if anyone had written to him so I did and this is his reply. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment further. 

 

 

 

Hello - I disagree. I have probably had 500+ Military watches through my hands and I wouldn't imagine that there would be a lot lot of money in faking ATPs . The fellow with the engraving tool in the stores/ QM dept was marking a watch , not carefully engraving it. You are entitled to your opinion but I have seen an awful a lot worse. 

[WillFly]

Hmmm... if he's seen an awful lot worse then he's had a lot of possible fakes through his hands. I doubt that the fellow with the engraving tool in the QM Stores would have been doing the military markings - serial number and all. My guess is that marking was done at some central point on receipt of the consignment of watches, which were then allocated to stores locations.

 

And there are huge amounts of money to be made by adding the ATP data...

 

Whatever - it looks bl@@dy awful.

[clockboy]

OK Will is it the correct movement for that period. I am just not knowelegable enough to enter into a logical argument with him.

Ebay is wonderful tool but the fakers & "I did not recieve the item" brigade are spoiling this site. I no longer trade without send next day to be signed for by Royal Mail (but that's another story) 

[WillFly]

Oh I'm sure the Cortébert watch is perfectly genuine - the face, dial, hands, case, movement, etc. - are all of a piece. But - and here's the point - I'm not convinced that the watch was purchased by the British Government as part of the consignments of Swiss (and American) watches which they bought for the troops. It's in the style, to be sure, but I've also seen lots of "ATP" case backs, and the engraving on that one looks too crude and too new - to me - to be genuine. A watch without the military markings might be worth, say, £85 or so - but around £150 with the markings - so there is a real markup to be made with the extra "ATP"!

 

Note that I'm not saying that the eBay vendor is a faker - not at all - just that I've never seen such crude engravings on either UK or US military timepieces. He may have acquired it in good faith, but - to me - it doesn't look right. After all, anyone could do that and claim it was genuine.

 

Here's a specimen of the real thing on eBay - note the clarity of the engraving:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-WW2-UNITAS-BRITISH-A-T-P-MILITARY-WRISTWATCH-c-1939-45-NEEDS-A-SERVICE-/201346761922?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2ee133c4c2

 

Will

[Andyclient]

Looking at it Will i totally agree that the marks looks dreadful and as fake as fake can be but the rest of the watch looks military to me.

I know there are plenty of "military style" watches out there but , I personally have never had a military style watch with solid spring bars , i know we can't really see the bars i'm assuming they are solid from what i can see and the strap.

Also it has a dust cover ,and the big thick caseback seal which is also very military but again i realise not totally conclusive.

But 100% the ATP markings are dreadful and don't look like anything i've ever seen before either and like you i've had a few.

And they are normally in line with the serial no from what i've seen

[WillFly]

The two Unitas military watches I own have solid bars, so I've fitted Zulu straps to them.

 

I've always assumed - and it's just a guess - that solid bars would have been more secure than spring bars in a field situation. But - as I say - just a guess! And - to confuse the issue - here's a hybrid!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-WW2-UNITAS-BRITISH-A-T-P-MILITARY-WRISTWATCH-c-1939-45-NEEDS-A-SERVICE-/201346761922

 

The War Department gave the contract to make these military watches to 12 Swiss watch manufacturers the so called “Dirty Dozen”. The Dirty Dozen included well-known brands including Cyma, Eterna, Buren, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Lemania, Longines, IWC, Unitas, Omega and Record along with some lesser known brands including Grana, Timor and Vertex.

 

The lesser brands may have included Cortébert. I've never seen a Cortébert military issue watch before - which may not mean anything!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[Blacklab]

There appear to be a few out there Will, just google Cortebert ATP.

[WillFly]

Thanks, Blacklab - I'll make a note of that.

[seang]

Hello all,

 

I've just signed up to reply to this thread, military watches are a bit of a thing for me :-)

 

The watch looks original, apart from a replacement crown, from the side view it seems the fixed bars are still in place too, as for the engraving, you just can't tell, some of the various ATP's have shockingly awful engraving.

 

To quote from 'British Military Timepieces' by Konrad Knirim:

"Some watches are stamped ATP whilst most are engraved; the quality of the engraving has no bearing on the authenticity of the watch, if it looks too good to be true it probably is."

 

Its hard to tell from this one how old the engraving might be, in the one close-up of the back the engraved markings look clean, by which I mean no skin gunk etc. but it also looks like a scratch on the back goes through the tail of the 9, possibly indicating its been there for a while, I suppose the only way to get a really close look is to buy it..........

 

 

As to the fixed bars, of the 20 manufacturers in this section of the book (and I just noticed it's credited to Ian Darge) two are stated to have used springbars instead of the proscribed fixed bar, and from the pictures Corbert used fixed bars, sadly it doesn't say which two used springbars.

 

The 'Dirty Dozen' watches are different thing altogether these are also known as the WWW's as that is the title of the MOD standard issued to suppliers, it will also be stamped on the back and stands for Watch, Wristlet, Waterproof. There is a great website here, showing examples of all of the 12. Sometimes a WWW grade watch would be downgraded if it no longer meet the WWW standard for some reason (e.g. a fixed bar and lug breaking and being soldered back in), then the WWW would be struck through on the back and ATP engraved in instead. 

 

A common misconception about the WWW's is that they are the World War 2 watch, most of them were not received by the MOD until late 1945 and it is considered unlikely that they were issued for use in the war. If you want an Army watch that could have seen service in WW2, go for an ATP :-)

 

Oh, and the way I found Mark and his great video's what when he did a replacement balance staff for a CYMA WWW.

 

And if anyone wants to get a full set of the Dirty Dozen in one go, one is for sale on the Military Watch Resource forum, which is great place to go to discuss military watches.

 

I have no connection with the watches for sale.

 

sorry for piling right in on my first post :biggrin:

[Geo]

Welcome to the forum seang, and thank you for a very enlightening first post. :)

[WillFly]

Welcome to the forum seang, and thank you for a very enlightening first post. :)

I'll drink to that! Very informative. I've never gone for the watches with the WWW stamp - much preferring ATP - and had assumed that the "Dirty Dozen" also applied to the ATP watches.

 

More stuff to file away!

 

Will

[seang]

Thank you for the welcome chaps,

 

Here are two of mine, both Timor, the ATP on the left and the WWW on the right, the ATP series is one of the most accessible options for a Military watch, the case size of 31mm leaving them considered small by modern tastes.

 

 

Some of the "Brand Brothers" use the same movement, Grana for example used their KF320 for the ATP and WWW, and the KF321 for the German Issued DH version. Prices for these are probably the most extreme though, A Grana ATP runs around £100-200, the DH up to £300 and the WWW, due to the low production run of this out of all the twelve WWW's will cost around £4000 - gulp

 

[clockboy]

It never ceases to amaze me how much knowledge can be gained from the site.

This site seems to grow & grow I love it. :wub:

[WillFly]

Absolutely - there's no end to learning!

[Nige]

I know a guy who used to service ATP,S in the army and he says lots of the markings were quite rough,as not all the blokes were good with an engraving tool.you can often see slips and scrapes,I have noticed that the ones that are stamped like Unitas and Font and others are often not straight.I think it was just important to mark them and it be legible,when I was in the army back in the early 80,s I used to see lots of equipment marked and not all of it very well.

[Sherlock1973]

Hi Will, do you have the serial number for the original eBay listing you posted, sorry the link no longer works