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zenon

Newbie Roscopf Puzzle...

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Hello,

 

I need your help and advice on couple of things: (a) verticality of escapement wheel (how to adjust it), B) puzzling time setting arrangements. I found in the watchmaker's stock I acquired an oldish Brevet 29831 Roscopf pocket watch. Complete but not working, rather worn in places (winding stem) bearings, winding click crudely manufactured (somehow working). The watch was dirty like 100 years old horse cart and the movement quite crudely made (is this how they looked like? :-) ) .

 

post-335-0-78731200-1431653006_thumb.jpg

post-335-0-37717300-1431653504_thumb.jpg

 

the movement is 47mm dia. the face 51mm.

 

After clean and initial assembly (pain in a neck for newbie) found few issues. Esc. lever bent (not equal swing) - repaired; hair spring bent - repaired.

 

Reassembled and oiled on again - (lying on dial side) with weak main spring wind shown bit small balance wheel swing, max wind better swing but still no more then >180 deg.  Turning it about makes big difference to the workings (and the ticking) so obviously the play and adjustings of the escapement are out of (if I may say so) whack. :-)

 

Looking inside shown the lever being not vertical.

 

post-335-0-54469300-1431653115_thumb.jpg

 

I was not able to make good picture inside but I think it can be seen above that the lever is a bit crooked but the esc. wheel is pretty badly leaning off vertical. Observe the damaged side of the esc. wheel cock. (The whole mechanism looks rather crude).

 

 

 

Next pic. shows the not parallel gap between bridge and esc, wheel cock, it would suggest rather crude way to twist it to get closer to the lever (?).

 

post-335-0-66720200-1431653448_thumb.jpg

 

 

So, the esc. wheel cock is mounted with one screw on two brass pins 1.1mm. How would I (if I should) go about setting the esc. wheel vertically? Moving, bending, re-drilling? I am not sure about the value of this watch neither am I sure about the time and effort spent on it. I guess the adjustment of the distance between the lever and the esc. wheel failed and maybe that was the repair (?) bending the esc. wheel cock?

 

Another problem is the time setting arrangements. After assembly and oiling the time setting worked ok until I wound the main spring to full... Few turns of the stem with the setting button pressed (?) seized something there and the time setting stopped working. I was puzzled as to how the friction arrangement worked and...

 

post-335-0-96874900-1431654186_thumb.jpg

I guess it is done on the bottom of the barrel (???) in the barrel cover. on it there is double wheel attached (P1010014-crop) and inside it is visible that the post is spread/riveted. At present I can still turn the brass wheel assembly on the brass post but it is very tight - I think it seized there. Am I correct? Is this the friction arrangement in this watch? Weird marriage of two same metals - prone to seizing...

 

post-335-0-39739800-1431654221_thumb.jpg

This is the riveting of the post (inside barrel side). There is brass tubular post riveted in the barrel cover (see P1010015-crop.JPG - also note the scratchings near the centre...),

 

 

I you gentlemen have any idea (any including scraping the watch for parts) I will appreciate it.

 

I hope I was clear in explaining the faults and also I apologize for my not top notch English.

 

Regards

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... continued. Lever pins replaced. I will not post details here about the replacing process itself because children might read these posts, however, clockboy was right suggesting that it is not simple. It is done now. The setting clutch was, as I guessed: a friction clutch on the bottom of the barrel. I did not need to disassemble this joint just used stake to push it/loosen it. It works but I am not sure how long it will hold the right tension, it is brass tube/on brass.

 

Assembled at first the escapement was:

 

1. Lever to close to the escapement wheel - there is fine adjustment which moves the lever in and out.

 

2. Balance was jamming on one side of the swing. It turned out that the safety pin (which is on the balance) was not aligned with the roller. That was difficult to find but easy to fix.

 

All assembled and the watch is working (balance had 90 degrees swing at one winder turn) full wind gives it little over 180 degrees (maybe 200) which is not so good is it? I cannot find data about a pin lever escapement in this or similar Roscopf. The watch seems very happy - what is interesting is the unusual ticking sound, completely different from the Swiss escapement.

 

Set 9pm it for adjustment so will see tomorrow. After one hour (no second hand) seems good.

 

:-)

Edited by zenon

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That is a watch that I have never come across. However the pin lever pinion is either not fitted correctly ,bent/broken or the jewel that houses it is cracked.

It looks like you to can adjust the drop of the lever, if the setting is not correct (when it is sitting straight) the watch will stop.

Ironically I am working on an MST watch at present that had (amongst other faults) a broken pin lever & fitting the replacement was not easy. 

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[...] However the pin lever pinion is either not fitted correctly ,bent/broken or the jewel that houses it is cracked.

I[...]

Checked the pinions and jewels (DIY microscope) - they are good. The lever is slightly bent up at the end but I doubt it affects the workings, the picture does not show that the escapement wheel is not vertical, I noticed the setting pins of the esc. wheel cock are twisted slightly anticlockwise (to move the esc. wheel closer to the lever) - truly brutalized work done on that. I will try to fix these as a practice job so anything will do. I still have to know the friction joint - if it is there on the barrel bottom, seems the only possibility. I am kind of loosing heart for this watch - the movement is really rough workmanship seemed not worth much attention but is good as a practice on very old movement.

 

If we look at the details of the movement it is really rather blacksmith's work then a watchmaker... :-)

 

Thanks for help.

Edited by zenon

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Yep you have a tuff job on there. The pin lever has to be correct with the correct drop/draw either side. Bending the pins is a squeaky bum time as well I have broken a few on clocks. Some bend the lever to try & get in beat & I think I see this method in a Donald de Carle book.

I did pick up a selection of replacement pins on eBay a while ago but as yet have not used any. Try & get everything straight then see what you get.

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[...] The pin lever has to be correct with the correct drop/draw either side. ...]

One of the pins turned out to be broken/bent. Well, decided to replace the pins with new made up - could not find them anywhere. At 0.20mm dia will make them out off a click spring which is 0.22mm - +0.02mm should not make difference. I found in my old Polish watch books a _complete guide_ for inspection, repair and adjustment of this type of pin lever escapement. I might also try to replace (match) balance spring.

 

Will post news.

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